I.E.D's A solution ?
 

Probably one for the Army ? During the last war we had Sherman tanks and a specially designed tank called the "Baron" designed to flail with heavy chains any mines in their path.
My question ? have defence chiefs thought of reinstating this idea ? as it was 80% to 100% effective in mine clearing.
Would be interested in other peoples thoughts as I think it will save service personnel lives. :ok:

Good programme on ITV last night 'Road Warriors' - a fly-on-the-wall documentary about the hazards of land convoy work in Afghanistan. IEDs were stated to be the primary threat and anything which can reduce that would be very welcome.

However, flail tanks are very slow - about 1.5 mph - and only effective against contact-detonated mines. No use against buried IEDs triggered remotely or against roadside booby-traps. In a built up area they would be lethal to their crews due to their extreme vulnerability.

How long before the Taliban work out that all they need to do is move the explosives six feet or whatever in front of the trigger? Probably only a matter of a few failed IEDs and hours?

Plus by the end of the Second World War, the simple counter for flail tanks was to plant the odd large sea mine/air-dropped bomb in a minefield. Sherman crab proceeds to drive across the normal AT mines then suddenly sets off the surprise.

I often wondered as a lot of the explosives used are "cooked" from Fertiliser, why, as they did in Ireland during the troubles, do they simply not make fertilisers with a high nitrate content illegal? there by reducing amount of potential explosive available.

I realise it would be difficult to control, but when stocks of the then illegal fertilisers were discovered they could be destroyed, thus removing a potential bomb making source, Heck you could even supply the safer variant at a cheaper price to the Afghanistanis or replace their discovered stocks with the safer versions........ I would imagine it would be cheaper to give the stuff away than replace some of the vehicles lost, let alone the sad loss of life.


Just a thought.

Thanks for the input ,anything to stop our soldier/airmen getting maimed or killed. Do the MoD have brain-storming sessions like these ? An anti-IED suggestion box at the front-line might be a good idea.

What about soldiers walking on a type of snow shoe that spreads the pressure for any pressure type IEDs?

Most IED's are triggered remotely, and mobile (cell/sat) phones are a favorite ignition tool. IED's can be hidden out of reach of flails. Mines have a vast array of ignition mechanisms, not just pressure-sensitive methods. There are magnetic mines, time-delay mines, mines that need circuits to be connected by the likes of sappers searching bayonets.
There's one highly satisfactory way to eliminate IED's - and that's to promptly and regularly eliminate from this world, those who plan, design, build and detonate them.
Then there are the "entrapment" mines or IED's. The nasty buggers set off one charge to create some damage - and as soon as more people arrive to help, they set off other hidden charges. There are often mines hidden under mines, set to trap those who defuse the top mine, and as soon as the top mine is lifted, the bottom mine, or IED, is activated. There is no end to the methods of evil. I can regale you for an hour on the inventiveness of the SE Asians when it comes to IED's - the perfectors of IED's. The current crop of terrorists have only learnt from the NVA and VC - but they have more technological tools at their disposal.
Highly sensitive explosive sniffers will likely be the tool of the future.
Super-sensitive explosive detector developed - tech - 13 April 2005 - New Scientist

The development of a hovercraft type vehicle would make most IED's pretty much useless against vehicles. Also a group mapping scan system that scanned downwards to show what was in the ground ahead would also improve matters.

The technology is there but is pretty slow at this present moment in time for use by vehicles but has been available for military satellites for many a year.

Guess its a combination of a metal detector type implement, amonia sniffer, combined with ground mapping radar combined with a very fast microprocessor to take account of vehicle movement and stability. Combine the elements from all 4 from a number of different companies and pretty much you would have a working model within a year or less. Course could build it into a remote vehicle driven in front of a convoy like a UAV controlled from elsewhere, a fleet of theses doing a hop further along the route and you have convoy protection. Its doable but question is whether the will is there.

Lots of the current IED's have been 5ft up built into walls etc.

Nutloose - very prescient. Look here. Gist of which is....

The Afghan government banned ammonium nitrate fertilizers, the key ingredient of roadside bombs that have emerged as the deadliest weapon used by Taliban fighters against NATO troops in Afghanistan.

Please don't or discuss mention what WE know about them - even if in open source etc.......every hint of our knowledge is a hint to change by the Fu***ers that lay these things.

One tactic that worked well in RVN.....was to use the tactic against the enemy. One battalion aggressively engaged in a "mechanical ambush" campaign in their area of the jungle which contained numerous NVA/VC units.

When they pulled out....the area reeked of success and they had taken no causualties themselves. Fight fire with fire when the circumstances provide the opportunity. Deny the roads to the Taliban then move to the trails....make it very dangerous for them to be moving....box them up....then run the B-52's in on them using JDAMS. Forget this patroling and being the target only.

As has been pointed out, IED's are not simply mines in the traditional sense. They are, in fact, quite cleverly conceived devices of death. There is no "silver bullet" for their location because their composition, placement and triggering are, ultimately, dependent entirely upon the imagination of human beings.

The suggestion that there can be a foolproof method for their detection is one that, really, only a fool can make. Taking into account the number of different, commonly available, compounds that can be used to create an explosive mix multiplied by the number of compounds that could be used to mask said compounds multiplied by the number of ways the explosive could be used at greater range to effect damage, (claymore, shaped charges, larger explosions), multiplied by the number of ways they can be initiated one quickly realizes that the combination's are myriad and, therefore, reliable detection becomes proportionately less likely and rapidly approaches impossible unless you restrict the detection device to only a small subset of the whole thus defeating the premise of a universal detection solution.

There is no viable solution to the problem of IED's with our current level of technology, (nor in the forseeable future), other than not deploying foot soldiers and vehicles into areas where they might be encountered. Clearly, that is not an option.

"The development of a hovercraft type vehicle would make most IED's pretty much useless against vehicles. Also a group mapping scan system that scanned downwards to show what was in the ground ahead would also improve matters.

The technology is there but is pretty slow at this present moment in time for use by vehicles but has been available for military satellites for many a year."

--------------

Racedo,

A, a hovercraft has to put pressure on the ground to support it's weight, albeit dispersed better than on wheels,

B, It's a hell of a hovercraft, even beyond Thunderbirds, if it can be available ( beyond comm's ) to satellites !

C, if using a scanning ( I suppose a development so as to be non surface contacting of the 'underground radar' as used by archaeologists ) it wouldn't take long before the enemy caught on to the wavelength, and as I understand it most IED's are planted at the roadside, with a beady-eyed git watching for the juciest target to remotely detonate.

Seriously, I am one of the lucky gits not in the forces ( though I have worked with them a lot ); one thing I feel very strongly is that we should NOT be sending out manned patrols on foot, or sappers trying to find IED's with bayonets etc.

If we are actually using more advanced methods, I and no-one here needs to know about them - though I fear that is wishful thinking.

Going out on foot, toe-to-toe, gun against gun is meeting the enemy on their own terms, on their home ground - I know Vietnam was lost through over-reliance on infant technology, but if ever there was a time to use high tech', it's now.

Otherwise blow the crap out of any roadway - inc' the sides one is facing, by air or ground fire, and everyone stay in ( better ) vehicles ?

Very much more difficult in villages etc; how about military vehicles avoiding them, while the ' hearts & minds ' bit would be kept up by air-drops of food, water, radios etc ? I know some would fall into enemy hands, but better than our guys getting killed...

Anyone in a position to know better & able to say anything, which will not breach security at any level ( the last I/we want is to feed info' to the gits* who I don't doubt read this site ) ? Please chip in.

*Polite version of utter *****

Thanks Captn Kirk, I had been wondering about that very simple point for some time, I knew we did it in Ireland and could not seeany logical reason as to why it could not be implemented.

Here are some more, simply shut down the Mobile phone Network in Areas of high risk or where patrols are, I cannot believe that the technology is not available, I realise that the military use it so their must be some logical way of jamming it.....

GPS, as it was a Military system and the Americans built it, there must be away to encode it so it can only be accessed by the Military closing the civil side down.

Radio hand helds as used on the TV for detonating IED's, I would take it the prudent use of a transmitter on Vehicles are already in use that put out a high output signal that rapidly transmits through the range of frequencies to detonate any radio controlled bombs before vehicles approach them.

For vehicle actuated pressure devices, I see what is said about flails, but why not have to sprung arms out front carrying two or four normal wheels that would detonate a device forward of the lead vehicle, or better still build a vehicle where all the wheels were on out riggers as such with the main body of the vehicle being mounted like a separate pod between them. does that make sense?

Nutloose, Oi !

I am a yachtie, and while I am fortunate ( ? ) to be old enough to have learned to navigate without anything like GPS - in fact it was a science fiction dream to us then - many, many modern yachties would be buggered without it ( civil & amateur flyers, car users & ramblers etc too for that matter ).

When Gulf War 1 broke out, the U.S. cunningly put a spoof signal into the non-friendly GPS (as in everyone else but friendly military ) version; the system already had a built-in inaccuracy of 10-30 metres.

A lot of people found themselves in trouble, particularly sailors who found to their surprise they were doing 500+ knots at 10,000', which is unusual for most sailing boats.

The Iraqi's weren't that bothered, as they could barely read a compass and were on home ground anyway...

The built in error has since been discarded, and in my little boat if I zoom in I get a picture ( not google earth but real time ) of us alongside the appropriate jetty etc.

I think it's been accepted that the bad guys know even better than the good guys as to who is where...

Yikes. You'll piss off everyone in the entire world for zero benefit. IED's do not rely upon GPS for triggering unless it was a booby trap to catch ATO moving the device to a safe area... :hmm:

Ok, so you want to randomly detonate IED's regardless of the potential for collateral damage. Flies in the face of western policy - won't happen.
I'll lay out more explosive that will overcome the additional distance to the target. You will make your arms longer, I will make my IED bigger... Eventually you won't be able to drive your vehicle.
Nice employment opportunity here... widening all the roads and tracks in Afghanistan. Pretty soon they will have a whole new system of 60 goat highways... :}

Try to imagine a bad dream where, no matter what cunning device you contrive, your adversary defeats it in short order and another small piece of you is painfully cut off.

How about staying at home and minding our own business!

We are a small bankrupt island off Europe, not the worlds policeman. Not even a community policeman or traffic Womble. Accepting it and moving on will probably defeat the root causes of terrorism a load more than the recruitment campaign for nutters that is Afghanistan/Iraq.

We are not an Empire or Super power, and i don't want my 3 young boys all desperate to join up as soon as possible dying for such a myth.

I wasn't refering to built up areas

That's ovinicide... :uhoh:

Complicated little issue isn't it... ;)

I heard this discussion on CSPAN where they've banned one formula of fertilizer and substituted another, which I assume is harder to make IEDs with.

However it was also mentioned that they raided a huge warehouse full of the stuff and the assumption is there are still huge stockpiles.

Tonker. You are so right. The arm forces are the FCO's option of last resort. We need to re-think our standing in the world first then complete SDR. Our position as a world banking/ finance centre has been mortally compromised and our social services and health services are bankrupting us.

If you simply google mine clearance vehicles you get links such as this:

HowStuffWorks "Mine Clearing Machines"

there is even a Jane's

Jane's Mines and Mine Clearance

Is this an official joke thread?
Let me see, foot patrols wearing snowshoes - so the bad guy pops up, lets off a few rounds, then scoots off chortling in his Adidas flip flops while the foot patrol waddle after him... Hovercraft, flail tanks turning every road surface into a goat track, vehicles with wheels on the end of legs (you'd be able to drive that down any standard motorway sized road then - might not fit through the middle of a village though). Meanwhile GPS and Mobile phones go off the air, while Johnny Afghan wonders why his TV switches to Postman Pat whenever a landy goes past.

My guess is the next big idea will turn out to be an unintentional rip off from Thunderbirds, perhaps using the Mole?

I think I've figured out why nobody seems to be using Pprune as a think tank....

PT......did we annex the UK recently? Sure sounds like the situation in the US of A these days and we got three more years to put up with our guy!

Thanks for the input ,the flail idea was bugging me so had to put in here to get feedback as I am fed up seeing our personnel getting killed by IED's,and seeing them arrive at Lyneham in C-17's.( I am a civilian but from an RAF childhood and 1,200 hours instructing with an ATC Gliding School)
Yes we must all be careful posting on here as the nasties may be reading but amazed at the thoughtful discussion it has generated. Davejb this is not a wind up have you tried looking at the MoD website to make a suggestion ?

Surely the best way would be to eliminate the people as they plant them. A week of intense observation of an area by whatever assets we have - anyone digging a hole after dark is unlikely to be doing a bit of overtime filling in potholes for the council. After a few nights when Terry doesn't come back, there might be a shortage of volunteers to take his place.

Would heat detection find these devices ? i.e carry out a heat detection survey before moving troops over the area.
Regarding GPS shut down we could always revert to astro/sun navigation using the sextant. :(

I didn't think it was a wind up, I just had trouble believing people thought these were sensible ideas.

Some other people's "joke ideas" that resulted in the MRAPs that US and UK troops are driving around in today:

AfricanCrisis

Tonker,

Congratulations, you definitely win the prize for the most comprehensive understanding of the "Cause and Effect" principle. Well done, however unpopular that view may be...

t43562,
Some interesting vehicles there and this is the type of thinking required.

Significant informed effort is being expended in this area
 

https://www.jieddo.dod.mil/index.aspx
Mine and IED Resistant Vehicles | Think Defence

Sun Who

Predictably, I see some pompous drivel appearing about cause and effect! So 9/11 happened because we invaded Afghanistan right? No wait...Iraq? No...hang on, er....

Back on topic....I accept that sometimes it's the crazy ideas that have merit....but seriously guys/girls, have a think through the second order consequences of some of these suggestions!

Running around in a firefight, in the desert, in snowshoes?! Hello?

Crippling the economy of the entire country by bombing the roads back to dirt tracks? Genius!

But it’s ok because we will airdrop supplies to the civilians that we isolate! Have a think about how much food you need in a month. Multiply x people in a town/village. How much airdrop capacity do you think that requires?

Have a look at a map too. Afghanistan is HUGE.

And what would you think if outsiders came and bombed your local roads...presumably on a daily basis because it would not take long to plant new IEDs in the resultant dirt tracks (and they would then be harder to spot).

We’re trying to SAVE the population of Afghanistan – not actively turn them against us!

That means that we need to stand alongside them, put our troops in harms way alongside them, and demonstrate that we are better than the Taliban (and the many other tribal groups that have crime, narcotics and corrupt control on their agenda that are lumped in with the Taliban), that we will stand by our word, that we will act fairly and honestly and that we can bring a better future to pass.

And we can. Ask the troops on the ground. To quote a young Captain I saw interviewed, ‘We do not want our public’s sympathy because sympathy is for losers – and we’re not losing. We just want their support!’

Staying this course, even with the daily horror of casualties, is more likely to succeed that retreating into our bases, becoming isolated from the population and becoming stuck in a long, drawn out conflict with even more casualties over time.

I’m with dave...a well meaning thread perhaps but comical bordering upon dangerous.

CK out.

Go back a bit further. I guess you are quite happy to build and knock down your own straw men though. :ugh:

Are you sure you have not served, you sound like a captain from Walmington-on-Sea.
My 2 suggestions:Is that good thinking?:bored:

Sometimes ideas that seem odd turn out to work, sometimes being allowed to think them without being scorned leads to other more practical ideas.

I have often been amazed at how various things I think would never work do and make the people who did them rich.

I would guess that a lot of effort is being put in to all this officially though people "on the outside" sometimes have an unusual and useful perspective. Even with 60 million people it is still possible for an individual to have unique skills or insight in Britain.

The real proof of this stuff is if you were prepared to go out in your inflatable shoes and walk over IEDs yourself. If you're prepared to put your life on the line for your own idea then perhaps people should say "good for you and good luck." From a distance. :-)

Sometimes (quite often) all this proves is that the idea was bloody stupid in the first place.

It helps to remember that whilst outlandish ideas sometimes work, usually they don't - it is a common misconception that because 'daft' ideas sometimes pan out that all daft ideas have merit... if this thread were actually intended to generate good ideas for use in Afghanistan then posters might do well to remember a couple of basic 'rules' of the game -
such as

1) We are ostensibly there to support a democratic government, with the overal aim (I presume) of making the Afghan government strong enough to maintain internal security without further support.

2) We are not there to punish the locals, to strip their country of assets, or to damage the Afghan infrastructure (such as it is).

3) They are not an enemy nation that we have conquered, we aren't intentionally in there to kill everyone who looks at us funny.

Consequently good ideas shouldn't involve indiscriminate slaughter of anyone holding a spade, or turning the road network into an allotment.

Midnight Pothole Repairs?
 

Dave,

Your comment.....

How many folks repair potholes in the middle of the night in Afghanistan?

Evidently you do not appreciate the length the Coalition Forces go to in confirming "hostile intent" before taking action. The mere holding of a Spade does not warrant a hostile action.....holding one while emplacing an IED does....carrying a Spade in hand as one leaves the site where one has just emplaced an IED qualifies as well.

Should it not?

AfricanCrisis&

Well there you go DaveJB, exactly what I meant, wheels remote from the body pod and the body shaped to deflect the blast AND IT WORKS.......... Call me old fashioned, but I cannot see the logic of putting the driver directly over the wheels unless you are hoping to use the axle as extra protection,

I also cannot understand why we over complicate military vehicles these days what with fuel computers and those for the drive train...... So it may meet UK emission requirements etc, but in the field you need something that can be repaired locally using the basic of tools, I work on piston Aero Engines amongst other things that can loose a cylinder and will still run, indeed they can and have got people across the channel and to an Airport, they can have a cylinder replaced in a couple of hours with a few basic spanners..... Bar the landrover most of the new stuff appears to have lost that simplicity of repair.

The image of a column of £1,000,000 vehicles being lead down a road by a man walking with a metal detector sums up why what i suggested (and appears to have been successfully developed) is needed.

You seem to think just because we mention something then we are talking about using them in built up areas, far from it, when you see some of the paths these guys have to clear up observation hills etc the facility to simply go through all the radio frequencies to detonate one radio controlled IED and save the life of one person would make the whole idea worthwhile. Also I seem to remember the UK they were developing a localised mobile phone jammer to nullify their usage in certain buildings, but then scanning the phone frequencies with the first suggestion would be a possibility.