Three more airbases to close?
 

So says say the times...

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article6999920.ece

At this rate, it is hard to imagine there be anything left to chop in the SDR!

Repairs, eh. That's the function of DILIGENCE clearly understood then.

Another New Labia tick in the box then.

So that's where they went wrong; "cheap drink".

Typerated,

Thanks for this. The problem with this is not the decisions per se - cuts are coming and aren't going to be good - but that these cuts are a defence review prior to the defence review which will limit the options available to the real review post-election. Can't believe that this is the way to make good policy.

On the "three airbases to close" claim, who knows what this means? As this is a RUMOUR network... at one level could be Lyneham, Cottesmore and another (e.g. Scampton), which could be in effect double counting of existing plans. Or it could be herald something much more significant (e.g. outsourcing pilot training to NFTC and moving Typhoon to Kinloss would theoretically allow you to close Leuchars, Linton and Valley).

Fundamentally, though, SDR 2011 needs maximum flexibility - not short-term cuts that constrain decision making.

S41

There have been rumours simmering for some time about the potential loss of an airbase in Scotland. I personally would tink twice nowadays about purchasing property in Forres for I believe that ISK days are numbered.

In addition to rumblings in the press; the demise of MR1, and central England, read Waddington, as a favoured base for MRA4. Also that an RAF presence would remain in the form of Lossiemouth which may have development potential for the long(er) term.

Of course in the finest traditions of the Royal Air Force, whichever base has just had millions spent on it is bound to close.
Future Brize: http://www.navitron.org.uk/forum/Smi...tumbleweed.gif

Squirrel,

Totally agree on the (lack of) good policy. SDR may be forced down certain paths by these announcements – certainly seems that minds have already been made up on some subjects – Harrier retirement a done deal already?

I note you say SDR 2011 – I had presumed that it would have all been done and dusted this year?

If these are new closures, perhaps they might be of the Woodvale, Topcliffe, Syerston ilk? Surely that would save a few bob?

Although, as the article does not say they will be RAF bases, perhaps the FAA and/or AAC are going to be joining in the fun?

My bolding, if we cant afford a bit of petrol to fly them then what the hell are we doing committing troops to Afghanistan. That really does confirm we have become a third rate power.

Big Hole
 

If the OTC is to be shut down then the UAS is likely to be next in the sights of Nu Labia for the axe the cost per person must be huge compaired with the OTC.

The big problen is that UK PLC has been put in sutch a big hole by the curent tennant of ten Downing street (assisted by the last one!) that it is hard to see how in the short term any other Goverment could not continue with the spending reductions.

GG I doubt if the money can be found to upgrade UK PLC to the status of "Third rate"

Stop giving it away hand over fist in benefits to the great uwashed.

In my present incarnation I administer benefits to people who get twice what I earn a week, in benefits. If we were to curtail this, we could save a few bob and maybe afford some petrol for the cabs!!

Fed up of not being able to get to see claimants when I want to because they're "in America for three weeks" or something similar.

Give up shelling out so inadequates can continue breeding ad infinitum and maybe we could get some good kit and actually afford to operate it.

Never happen but I can dream
11

Doc C :mad:

Typerated

It's of course possible to get a Defence Review done this afternoon - but done properly, with proper thinking and input from across Government is not quick or easy; if they start in June, then it'd be a pretty decent effort to get something meaningful on the streets for May 11.

The problem is that the cash-crunch is imposing its own timetable, and to their shame, Ministers elected to kick this into the post-election long grass rather than grip this last summer, when I suspect that most of this was knowable. Too bad.

Not familiar with what's actually at Woodvale, Topcliffe or Syerston these days - but I doubt that it would save too much cash. (Or more precisely, nothing like enough to save MoD finances.)

No idea on a firm "let's bin GR9" decision yet - it would have to be a part of the CVF decision, and though I don't expect CVF to survive, there's nothing to suggest that that decision has been made yet.

S41

Topcliffe is occupied by the Army as Alanbrooke Barracks, and home to an RA Regt, and that's been the case for nearly thirty years. The runways have been used as a satellite for Leeming (RN EFTS), Linton, and by VGS. I can't see there being any money to save by ceasing to use them.

Typical newspaper article really, full of half truths. Nimrod MRA4 obviously wasn't coming into service now, and the air bases possibly up for closure will be ones which have already been identified - so the story doesn't say anything new about the RAF.

It's fairly easy to see how things will unfold:-

Kinloss will close (despite the SC claiming otherwise). It will be redundant when the MRA4 relocates to Waddington (as it doubtless will).

Lyneham will close as planned. The local MP has started whining way too late.

Cottesmore will close as announced. Doubtless the Defence Review will most likely advocate the withdrawal of the entire Harrier fleet, in which case Wittering will go too.

The carriers and F-35 will surely be abandoned as part of the review. Not a moment too soon some would say. Tornado GR4 will remain in service at Lossie and Marham. Typhoons will continue at Coningsby and eventually Leuchars.

Leeming is still a mystery as it seems to be driven my local politics. Seems a safe bet that 100 Sqn will go to Valley or disband (and go civvy). There must still be quite an appetite to close the base but politics seems to be keeping it alive - for now.

Linton will go, and the aircraft (whatever replaces Tucano) will go to Valley.

Scampton will go, but only after the Red's Hawks run out of hours in a few years. Until then it seems secure if only to provide air space, once the team move to Waddington.

Think all of the above looks like a pretty safe bet;)

Can anyone tell me when and why RAF stations became "air bases"?

Presumably sometime prior to the 1960s, when "Base Hangar" was built.

I should imagine it goes hand in hand with where fleets are "based".

Has the term "stationed" ever been applied to aircraft fleets? I wouldn't think so, only to personnel, and possibly units. "The Canberra was stationed at many RAF stations" sounds wrong.

Perhaps a "base" suggests more of a "Main Operating Base" than a backwater. Thus closing Brize Norton (as a MOB) would be much more far reaching than closing the RAF station near Formby, RAF Woodvale. It's a bit (lot!) of a stretch to call it a "base". Or to put it another way, Coltishall was a base closure, Sealand a station closure, even though Coltishall was indeed a Station.

Does it really matter? If this is right, there will be three less of them. That's what matters.

For what my opinion is worth, I reckon Lossie will house GR4 and Typhoon, Kipper, ahem, fleet, move to Waddington. Then we could lose 66% of RAF flying stations in Scotland.

Inverness, Glasgow, Edinburgh and Prestwick could carry the div commitment. Simples. Do I win £5 ?

I depends on whether McBrown and the rest of McLabour want play McPolitics ... watch this space for McClosures in the Tory regions instead.

Disposal of the projected Typhoon fleet is already known (Coningsby and Leuchars). No mention of Lossie. Seems that Lossie is still likely to take some of the F-35 fleet although in my (and many other people's opinion) the aircraft is never going to even enter service, so I guess Lossie will last as long as the Tornado GR4 does - and then join the list of casualties. Kinloss must be likely to go much sooner. If (as seems to be likely now) the Nimrod MRA4's go to Waddington, it seems inevitable.

"Air Base" "Base Hangar" and "Air Wings"
IMO - are all awful americanisms dragged in by people watching too many "Yee-haa" movies! (I can just imagine a sweaty Robert Mitchum taking a heavy drag on his cigar stub before bellowing "Seal the Base!" - whatever that meant?)

There were no "Base Hangars" built in the 60's, even at Brize...they were just big hangars.

Yes, the term "Base Maintenance" is used in civvy St. Thats because it comes from the alignment of JAR/EASA reg's with FAR's and dragged an americanism across with them.

Fair dinkum though - It does give it a guete bedeutung!

Tim - I'll bite...,

With your insistance that the hunter fleet be moved to Waddo could you tell me where they are going to go? I'm sure there is space to park them, but what of the "new" sim building at Kinloss, not to mention the buildings to accomodate NLS, 3 Sqns, Hanger space, dedicated Ops....etc etc. Where is the money going to come from to rebuild all this? (Oh i get it - by closing Kinloss...:ugh:)

What about schools, married quarters, messing?

While I respect many of your views I hope you are just fishing and that you don't want to lower morale anymore than it is already at Kinloss!

While i agree that to keep a station open for 9 aircraft may seem strange, hasn't Waddo operated like that for much longer? 7 E3D's (of which how many have been U/S ?) and 3 R1's. Of which only until last month the R1 was operational. (Astor mates I havn't forgotton you either.)

As Kinloss is much nicer, lets move Astor up to Kinloss, scrap the E3's and leave the siggies to operate out of Mildenhall. The Shadow lads can go to Cranwell.:E

What of the sim building? Moving an air wing does n't mean moving the sim. We thought nothing of flying Harrier guys to the US or F3 guys down to Coninsgby etc.

Many of the sim and ground school are contractor or civilian and they won't move.

There are also the stay behind personnel. They go to the new duty station but remain in their homes at the original base.

P N,
Are you honestly suggesting that entire crews travel back and forth from Waddo to kinloss to practice their skills in the Sim, including all the OCU crews every week? Dosn't sound very realistic to me. Anyway you now have Kinloss remaining open, so defeats the object.

gh

We are all just armchair experts, making free with our opinions. However, I believe in the past the RAF has:

Used a sim at Gatwick for Tristar crews.
Flown helo (presumably Puma) crews to Norway to use a sim

So nothing would surprise me. While I realize that Kinloss is "safe" for now, people are talking post SDR, and an airbase with only 9 airframes on it looks very vulnerable (a 4* once told an audience I was in that 16 airframes was the "break even" point for Kinloss).

I know moving to Waddington was looked at previously, and there were many infrastructure issues that you have highlighted, but they are closing Lyneham and moving enough infrastructure to support 70-80 odd large aircraft to Brize, with the need to build extra quarters, etc, so it can be done if enough will is there (although many predict the closing of Lyneham and expansion of Brize will be a disaster!)

What may well save Kinloss is the expense involved in any move at a time when the MOD is broke.

We are all simply offering are own versions of "what if".

Hi Biggus,

I know. Didn't mean to come over too earnest. Funny how protective you get though about where you work/live. All good banter. And the funny thing is you never know whats going to happen, so best just go with it and look forward to a rockin hanger party!:ok:

Well for my pennies worth, It costs millions to relocate aircraft,people, etc to alternate stations I am sure we will all agree. The MRA4 set up is in place already at Kinloss, the next month will finalise that and everything is in place nearly (i say nearly loosely) to operate. If you were to move to Waddington, I am correct in thinking you would need to build new facilities hard standings , move personel and im sure thousands of other obstacles that need to be overcome. Its not an overnight operation but it would not be cheap. Having to return land back to its original glory , closing another famous base wont go so peacefully.

Where do they get the tens of millions do do this. Im sure the last Defence review it said it costs more to close a station than keep it open. Kinloss has a huge Nato paid for parking facility that im sure under agreement has to be kept ? it just does not make sense but yet again its down to people who think they know it all and scare monger.

Saying that its no hiding the fact that Morayshire is an SNP throne and what the hell favours would a Tory government give back.

The FAF do this with their E-3F crews to Waddington.

Wouldn't surprise me if things went a bit purple-ish at ISK. Flog off Fort George, Cameron Barracks and the big TA place in Elgin and put all the squaddies into Kinloss. Might make for some epic battles in the Naafi bar!!!

Que??
 

I can follow the semantics about when a station might be an airbase, but Rigga's "guete bedeutung!" has gone right over my head. Is it Afrikaans, by any chance?

Armchair Pundits
 

Mr McLelland,

Whilst your posts often give the impression that you have some form of deeper knowledge about matters light blue, your earlier post demonstrates that you are shooting from the hip and have no greater knowledge that others on here who get their information from t'internet. I can say this with some justification as the comments you have made about one particular base are just plain wrong.

Anyway, it is never good to lose an airfield, once it is gone, it has gone forever, just like wharves. Pprune seems to have descended into a vast feeding frenzy of speculation about SDR before and after. Without doubt, there are some difficult choices, one of which is if the government are going to stump up the cash that they seem to find so readily for failing banks, single parents, long term unemployed etc.

It also seems that in every single thread, the same mud seems to be flung at the HMS Queen Elizabeth Class programme. whilst I admit that the future of F35 is not assured, especially in the light of the USNs recent comments about cost, HMS Queen Elizabeth will be able to operate a vast amount of other platforms. QEC is not inextricably linked to F35. If F35 is shelved, QEC will still go ahead. It is worth taking a look here Queen Elizabeth already exists. Millions have been spent already and millions more committed. The steel has been bought and cut, large elements have already been built. Orders have been placed for systems and propulsion, involving the employment of tens of thousands of predominantly UK workers, in many deprived areas. Would you wish them to join the massed ranks and claim even more benefit?

QEC is here, face it, get over it, and save your powder and vitriol for something that really matters rather than allowing a very blinkered view to get in the way of logic.

I am sorry for the thread drift, but CVF was brought into the debate, when the issue was about the closure of airbases. In my personal opinion, there is a whole lot more that could probably be done but, once again, consideration should be made of the effect on the local economy, particularly in Scotland.

Mr Widger - Thank you for your comments about me. I'm sure we're all suitably informed and grateful.

Grousehunter:-
With your insistance that the hunter fleet be moved to Waddo
I'm not insisting on anything - I'm simply repeating what is being said elsewhere. That's why the public comments from the Station Commander sounded so ludicrous!

Flog off an Army Barracks, good God man what are you thinking! Fort George may be one of the most desolate, God-forsaken places this side of the Falkland Islands but ten RAF Stations will close before our friends in green give it up. Consider how many ex-RAF Stations are now in the hands the Army and how many Army camps have closed since 1990. Off the top of my head the following are now (either mostly or completely) Army, all of which I served at or visited when they had an RAF Ensign at the main gate:

RAF Gutersloh
RAF Bruggen
RAF Rheindahlen
RAF Abingdon
RAF Hereford
RAF Swanton Morley
RAFSU Belize
RAF Innsworth
RAF Chivenor
RAF Brawdy
RAF Stafford
RAF North Luffenham

I am sure there are many others that have gone the same route but I cannot think of one that has gone the other way

And the A400M is flying, with many more millions already spent. Let's see if that survives.... :(

Widger,

Without reopening the whole CVF debate, it is most definitely not 'here'. Why do you thing the First Sea Lord has been making such a spirited defence of it? For better or ill, SDR is a huge threat to CVF's future.

I am sure that ISK could become the UK plc version of Fairford. Tumbleweedtastic on care and maintenance rekindled (short term) when NATO have got better things to do then play in the Far East. I believe that the RAF hangar at Stornoway was held in similar circumstances; not sure if it still is though.

They may have cut steel but they can still sell it on to India :ugh:

Think someone suggested if flying training be reduced, re arranged that basic and fast jet goes to NFTC, freeing up Valley and Linton On Water

And how about all rotary wing goes out to combo of US Army Aviation Center at Ft Rucker and Navy's HT-18 at Whiting Field.

Multi engine goes to NAS Corpus Christi

Or go back previously to Canada and to Allied Wings for rotary wing and multi engine training at Southport.

The talk that I hear seems pretty clear that if/when Linton closes, the assets will go to Valley. Make of that what you will.

As for the carriers and the F-35, it's like I said before... if you can have Michael Portillo (a hugely experienced former Conservative Defence Minister) and Dianne Abbot (left-winger MP with a finger firmly on the "Real labour" pulse) both sat side by side, saying that the carriers are patently unaffordable and will have to go... I think you can make your own conclusions.

NUFC - more stations
 

More stations that the Army took over -
RAF Upavon
RAF Netheravon
RAF Wattisham
RAF Middle wallop
RAF Andover
RAF Abingdon
RAF Bicester (part of)
RAF Colerne
RAF Hullavington
RAF South Cerney

Some that have closed / closing -
Moenchengladback
Dusseldorf
Kalkar
Rheindahlen & Bruggen I'm led to be are being closed

All to name but a few

Was Def Sec for under two years, before which he was Employment Sec (one year) and Chief Sec to Treasury (two years).

Experienced, yes, but not hugely.

Portillo and Abbot are agreeing on what is very evident - we are spending far more than we can afford, and even if we cut defence spending to zero (ie stop paying all Armed Forces uniformed and civ employees, and stopped buying anything for Defence) we'd still be spending more than taxation is raising.

JHQ Rheindahlen was HQ BAOR. Never was "just" an RAF Station.

MG - Although it was a Luftwaffe airfield, I think the A61 put paid to that. It's been Ayrshire Barracks for a VERY long time.

Same deal at Duss, and the non-BFPO part of that closed a good 10-15 years ago. It was 20 Electronic Wksps REME in the early 90s. Did it have a prior RAF incarnation?

At least 10 of the stations in the list were built in the 30's expansion period. Perhaps that is the problem. All of the 30s stations will age at similar rates, and they fall into disrepair quickly. There were also far too many of them by modern (jet) standards. Would you build Scampton and Waddington so close today? or Bentwaters & Woodbridge? Maybe that's why Woodbridge was redeveloped and Bentwaters hasn't been. However, many of the Army barracks that were swapped for redundant RAF stations were built in the 1800s. There's plenty others that the Army didn't take, but the RAF gave up:

RAF Little Rissington
RAF Manby
RAF Coltishall
RAF Kemble
RAF Lindholme
RAF Finningley
RAF St Mawgan
RAF Greenham Common
RAF Bentwaters
RAF Upper Heyford
RAF Alconbury
RAF Upwood
RAF Sealand
RAF Watton
RAF Manston

A couple that didn't make the list earlier:

RAF Oakington
RAF Waterbeach
RAF Driffield (kind of!)
RAF Leconfield
RAF Tern Hill

I can think of one going the other way, there was an RAF SU in Krefeld that set up in Bradbury Barracks.

Of course one base going the other way - or rather back into RAF hands - is Kirton-in-Lindsey. With grass runway and all!

Just a small point but Chivenor was not taken over by the Army, thats why its now called RMB Chivenor