gh

We are all just armchair experts, making free with our opinions. However, I believe in the past the RAF has:

Used a sim at Gatwick for Tristar crews.
Flown helo (presumably Puma) crews to Norway to use a sim

So nothing would surprise me. While I realize that Kinloss is "safe" for now, people are talking post SDR, and an airbase with only 9 airframes on it looks very vulnerable (a 4* once told an audience I was in that 16 airframes was the "break even" point for Kinloss).

I know moving to Waddington was looked at previously, and there were many infrastructure issues that you have highlighted, but they are closing Lyneham and moving enough infrastructure to support 70-80 odd large aircraft to Brize, with the need to build extra quarters, etc, so it can be done if enough will is there (although many predict the closing of Lyneham and expansion of Brize will be a disaster!)

What may well save Kinloss is the expense involved in any move at a time when the MOD is broke.

We are all simply offering are own versions of "what if".

Hi Biggus,

I know. Didn't mean to come over too earnest. Funny how protective you get though about where you work/live. All good banter. And the funny thing is you never know whats going to happen, so best just go with it and look forward to a rockin hanger party!:ok:

Well for my pennies worth, It costs millions to relocate aircraft,people, etc to alternate stations I am sure we will all agree. The MRA4 set up is in place already at Kinloss, the next month will finalise that and everything is in place nearly (i say nearly loosely) to operate. If you were to move to Waddington, I am correct in thinking you would need to build new facilities hard standings , move personel and im sure thousands of other obstacles that need to be overcome. Its not an overnight operation but it would not be cheap. Having to return land back to its original glory , closing another famous base wont go so peacefully.

Where do they get the tens of millions do do this. Im sure the last Defence review it said it costs more to close a station than keep it open. Kinloss has a huge Nato paid for parking facility that im sure under agreement has to be kept ? it just does not make sense but yet again its down to people who think they know it all and scare monger.

Saying that its no hiding the fact that Morayshire is an SNP throne and what the hell favours would a Tory government give back.

The FAF do this with their E-3F crews to Waddington.

Wouldn't surprise me if things went a bit purple-ish at ISK. Flog off Fort George, Cameron Barracks and the big TA place in Elgin and put all the squaddies into Kinloss. Might make for some epic battles in the Naafi bar!!!

Que??
 

I can follow the semantics about when a station might be an airbase, but Rigga's "guete bedeutung!" has gone right over my head. Is it Afrikaans, by any chance?

Armchair Pundits
 

Mr McLelland,

Whilst your posts often give the impression that you have some form of deeper knowledge about matters light blue, your earlier post demonstrates that you are shooting from the hip and have no greater knowledge that others on here who get their information from t'internet. I can say this with some justification as the comments you have made about one particular base are just plain wrong.

Anyway, it is never good to lose an airfield, once it is gone, it has gone forever, just like wharves. Pprune seems to have descended into a vast feeding frenzy of speculation about SDR before and after. Without doubt, there are some difficult choices, one of which is if the government are going to stump up the cash that they seem to find so readily for failing banks, single parents, long term unemployed etc.

It also seems that in every single thread, the same mud seems to be flung at the HMS Queen Elizabeth Class programme. whilst I admit that the future of F35 is not assured, especially in the light of the USNs recent comments about cost, HMS Queen Elizabeth will be able to operate a vast amount of other platforms. QEC is not inextricably linked to F35. If F35 is shelved, QEC will still go ahead. It is worth taking a look here Queen Elizabeth already exists. Millions have been spent already and millions more committed. The steel has been bought and cut, large elements have already been built. Orders have been placed for systems and propulsion, involving the employment of tens of thousands of predominantly UK workers, in many deprived areas. Would you wish them to join the massed ranks and claim even more benefit?

QEC is here, face it, get over it, and save your powder and vitriol for something that really matters rather than allowing a very blinkered view to get in the way of logic.

I am sorry for the thread drift, but CVF was brought into the debate, when the issue was about the closure of airbases. In my personal opinion, there is a whole lot more that could probably be done but, once again, consideration should be made of the effect on the local economy, particularly in Scotland.

Mr Widger - Thank you for your comments about me. I'm sure we're all suitably informed and grateful.

Grousehunter:-
With your insistance that the hunter fleet be moved to Waddo
I'm not insisting on anything - I'm simply repeating what is being said elsewhere. That's why the public comments from the Station Commander sounded so ludicrous!

Flog off an Army Barracks, good God man what are you thinking! Fort George may be one of the most desolate, God-forsaken places this side of the Falkland Islands but ten RAF Stations will close before our friends in green give it up. Consider how many ex-RAF Stations are now in the hands the Army and how many Army camps have closed since 1990. Off the top of my head the following are now (either mostly or completely) Army, all of which I served at or visited when they had an RAF Ensign at the main gate:

RAF Gutersloh
RAF Bruggen
RAF Rheindahlen
RAF Abingdon
RAF Hereford
RAF Swanton Morley
RAFSU Belize
RAF Innsworth
RAF Chivenor
RAF Brawdy
RAF Stafford
RAF North Luffenham

I am sure there are many others that have gone the same route but I cannot think of one that has gone the other way

And the A400M is flying, with many more millions already spent. Let's see if that survives.... :(

Widger,

Without reopening the whole CVF debate, it is most definitely not 'here'. Why do you thing the First Sea Lord has been making such a spirited defence of it? For better or ill, SDR is a huge threat to CVF's future.

I am sure that ISK could become the UK plc version of Fairford. Tumbleweedtastic on care and maintenance rekindled (short term) when NATO have got better things to do then play in the Far East. I believe that the RAF hangar at Stornoway was held in similar circumstances; not sure if it still is though.

They may have cut steel but they can still sell it on to India :ugh:

Think someone suggested if flying training be reduced, re arranged that basic and fast jet goes to NFTC, freeing up Valley and Linton On Water

And how about all rotary wing goes out to combo of US Army Aviation Center at Ft Rucker and Navy's HT-18 at Whiting Field.

Multi engine goes to NAS Corpus Christi

Or go back previously to Canada and to Allied Wings for rotary wing and multi engine training at Southport.

The talk that I hear seems pretty clear that if/when Linton closes, the assets will go to Valley. Make of that what you will.

As for the carriers and the F-35, it's like I said before... if you can have Michael Portillo (a hugely experienced former Conservative Defence Minister) and Dianne Abbot (left-winger MP with a finger firmly on the "Real labour" pulse) both sat side by side, saying that the carriers are patently unaffordable and will have to go... I think you can make your own conclusions.

NUFC - more stations
 

More stations that the Army took over -
RAF Upavon
RAF Netheravon
RAF Wattisham
RAF Middle wallop
RAF Andover
RAF Abingdon
RAF Bicester (part of)
RAF Colerne
RAF Hullavington
RAF South Cerney

Some that have closed / closing -
Moenchengladback
Dusseldorf
Kalkar
Rheindahlen & Bruggen I'm led to be are being closed

All to name but a few

Was Def Sec for under two years, before which he was Employment Sec (one year) and Chief Sec to Treasury (two years).

Experienced, yes, but not hugely.

Portillo and Abbot are agreeing on what is very evident - we are spending far more than we can afford, and even if we cut defence spending to zero (ie stop paying all Armed Forces uniformed and civ employees, and stopped buying anything for Defence) we'd still be spending more than taxation is raising.

JHQ Rheindahlen was HQ BAOR. Never was "just" an RAF Station.

MG - Although it was a Luftwaffe airfield, I think the A61 put paid to that. It's been Ayrshire Barracks for a VERY long time.

Same deal at Duss, and the non-BFPO part of that closed a good 10-15 years ago. It was 20 Electronic Wksps REME in the early 90s. Did it have a prior RAF incarnation?

At least 10 of the stations in the list were built in the 30's expansion period. Perhaps that is the problem. All of the 30s stations will age at similar rates, and they fall into disrepair quickly. There were also far too many of them by modern (jet) standards. Would you build Scampton and Waddington so close today? or Bentwaters & Woodbridge? Maybe that's why Woodbridge was redeveloped and Bentwaters hasn't been. However, many of the Army barracks that were swapped for redundant RAF stations were built in the 1800s. There's plenty others that the Army didn't take, but the RAF gave up:

RAF Little Rissington
RAF Manby
RAF Coltishall
RAF Kemble
RAF Lindholme
RAF Finningley
RAF St Mawgan
RAF Greenham Common
RAF Bentwaters
RAF Upper Heyford
RAF Alconbury
RAF Upwood
RAF Sealand
RAF Watton
RAF Manston

A couple that didn't make the list earlier:

RAF Oakington
RAF Waterbeach
RAF Driffield (kind of!)
RAF Leconfield
RAF Tern Hill

I can think of one going the other way, there was an RAF SU in Krefeld that set up in Bradbury Barracks.

Of course one base going the other way - or rather back into RAF hands - is Kirton-in-Lindsey. With grass runway and all!

Just a small point but Chivenor was not taken over by the Army, thats why its now called RMB Chivenor