Thank God some sense finally being talked on this topic...

recce_FAC, I think the point is a fair one that to air such strong views off 'second-hand experience', particularly around these parts, is a bit risky at best. If you're trying to get a rise out of people, then fair play, you'll manage!

BobV, you should be ashamed, trying to feather your own nest like that! And I can't believe the comment about how cruel axing the Jag Force was hasn't been corrected/slapped down, or maybe it just wasn't worth the 'ink'!

BrakingStop (no prizes for guessing your allegiance then!):

My asterisked paragraph said I hoped to avoid the subjective 1-seat vs 2-seat debate. The point about the weapon load stands apart from that and is wholly objective.

Since you ask, you can have 2 Paveway IVs and the gun together with RAPTOR. And the Litening III recce package is now doing (by day and night) the kind of tasks formerly allocated to (day only) DJRP, so DJRP is effectively redundant. Every Litening III pod is equipped this way on every sortie. So there!

Easy Street,

I would suggest that the GR4's loadout is roughly equivalent and no more or less flexible than the GR9's. However, the Harrier airframe is far more capable in Afghan than the Tonka.

5 Forward, 6 Back,

Quote:
"the Harrier force has got too small to do anything, really. If there was a way to suddenly generate another 5 squadrons' worth of jets, and shove anyone on the GR4 force with single-seat pretensions through training to fly them, then it might be possible. It could handle HERRICK while Typhoon gains capability."

We "handled" HERRICK for 5 years through some of the most intense periods of fighting seen for decades and we did that with only 3 front line sqns thank you very much. Many people outside of JFH have said that JFH was broken when we came home. We weren't broken, but we had suffered from skill fade in other areas - CVS and Night LL for example, which is why we are home now regaining those skills.

What is true is that unfortunately for recce_FAC and his mates we won't be going back to the Stan and our survivability in the future is 99% tied to the future of the 2 carriers. Post the recent announcement that we are losing a sqn, we will shortly become (but not yet) almost too small for anything other than CVS based ops. Fingers crossed for the SDR. If the carriers, and hence the GR9 survives, then there is a big risk that GR4 will take a massive hit...

BS

Intentionally or not, recce_FAC has highlighted that a decision has been taken to prosecute an Air Warfare centric doctrine with GR4, rather than subscribe to a future with GR9 that requires more Jointery and Combined Arms Ops. Now I would expect the RAF to defend a decision that keeps them in the driving seat rather,, than having to play nicely with Dark Blue and Green all the time, but call it what it is instead of obfuscating behind an apparent "equipment" decision - it's doctrinal and all about controlling the assets.

Quick question - are there sufficient aircraft, pilots and maintainers on JFH to maintain the level of operations that they were undertaking in AFG on a permanent basis and still maintain any sort of harmony and still maintain competance in all the other roles/disciplines expected of it (in particular day/night deck currency)? Of course we could throw harmony out of the window by declaring 'war' and post all available JFH pers to AFG permanently ..... or use an equally capable force that can do the above.

As for the war vs a war discussion. A similar lack of foresight i.e. not preparing for what is coming around the corner, is exactly what has got this government (and a fair proportion of the population) in such a financial mess. Spend spend spend - don't worry, by the time the problem comes back to bite you on the a55 it will be somebody elses problem.

Edited to add - just seen BrakingStops post and that sort of anwers my question. JFH can either support ops TFN or support its other roles, including the CVS. Ignore CVS and it may be cancelled (possibly). By putting the GR4 in theatre and allowing GR9 to demonstrate the usefullness of carrier ops again (albeit not in an op theatre at the moment) it will better guarantee, IMHO, the future of the carriers. Which, again IMHO, is a good thing (taking cover from Jacko;)) but we're back to the war vs a war argument. If you want to fight the war, especially with the GR9, then you will lose the carriers. And of course if you're only fighting the war there is surely no need for a SDR until the war is over?

I started this thread basically wanting to know the reason why GR-9 (In my opinion, the best CAS A/C with have) I would not be so stupid to have a bash at GR-4. GR-4 is our (in the FAC/JTAC world) our work horse. My posts on this thread are genuine,however my point of view is based purely on my role as a JTAC/FAC/TACP on the ground. Ive used GR-4 on Telic several times but with no kenetic effect and as I have already stated I have used GR-9 almost everyday of a 7 month Herrick tour with several ''kenetic events''.. In short I think i'm fairly well qualfied to discuss this topic and I know you pilots worked pretty damn hard at school compared to me , however I am the '' customer'' and you know what they say about customers?

Its not about the SCL of GR-9/ GR-4 that us on the ground care about. PW-4 is the best bomb around and it fits most situations where you need a Kenetic effect. Most of the work in Afghan is NOT blowing s@@@ up , its checking in,sweeping a route, pattern of life, show of force if the ICOM kicks off or your in contact and then ultimately ''warheads on foreheads'' The last thing we want is a jet to check out bingo off to AAR after a SoF. With GR-9 namely IV sqn when ever we visited them at KAF, us FAC's were treated as a vital member of the team,nothing was too much trouble and indeed good friendships were formed.

Back to my basic point. At the this time where the British armed forces are in need of CAS like never before, the powers that be have decided to cut back/scrap/mothball/send to sea whatever you want to call our best CAS aircraft. Please dont insult me with ''air politics'' I am a soldier on the ground ,I dont give a stuff about that rubbish,or egos that may have been bruised way back at Valley on hawks. Just ask your nearest FAC whats his favorite jet , Im certain I know what his answer will be.

On to GR-4 yep 7 sqns however the difference in CAS skills between these sqns vary a lot. Guess you could say the same about FAC's.I just wish they would turn up as fragged on the ATM and if the jet does go U/S they would have the decency to call us whilst we are freezing our kn@ckers off on some hill in scotland. I know we didnt try as hard as you in school but thats no excuse to be rude or ''special''. Harrier pilots always turn up and if for some reason they dont ,they call you get your address and send you a bottle of Whiskey.;)

Banter over with, lets hope the MOD see's sense and stops putting politics before capability. Because on my next tour, if the GR-4 is U/S and I get another Dutch F-16 to get me out of the brown stuff (you can see why they have that call sign ,JTAC-'' Can I have a GBU 12'' Dutch pilot'' R@@@@T !) Anyway GR-9 or GR-4 your all still head and shoulders above the Dutch,French,USAF, Belgies. Next time your supporting FAC's in UK just remember you should be trying to impress us as well as admiring yourself. Cheers :ok:

There is another RAF asset "delivering the good news to Terry" that we have failed to mention...MQ-9 Reaper. It now flies night and day with a mix of 500lb LGBs and laser guided missiles (using about 4 a month on average since 2008). If we're into Tornado and Harrier bashing ask how many "deliveries" RAF MQ-9 has made in comparison to them during their concurrent deploy periods - granted "show of force" is a bit pants from an MQ-9!!!:ok:

By the way, IMHO, I think that "THE War / A War" banter is the biggest load of b0ll0cks invented by the Army - it's a war, pretty sh!tty like any other war, but is still just a war. If it was "THE War" then it would imply that it is the ultimate one and I reckon that there are few more to come yet! Otherwise, we're in for a Woodrow Wilson moment of a "War to end all wars"!

Oh, and I may have been wrong about the "show of force" :E

http://patdollard.com/wp-content/upl...ator_cloud.jpg

Hmmm i dont know much B word but is that a Predator and not a Reaper??? :O But hey they dont call me Stevie Wonder for nothing!!

Recce_fac, do i know you?? Hmm im sure weve met somewhere down range????? Or maybe down in the weeds!! ;)

I think both crews do a sterling job, if only the Government did as good job!! TW!Ts!

Yup, it's a fair cop - I couldn't find a supersonic picture of a Reaper!

BTW, for those not in the know: "The picture of the supersonic Predator UAV is a fake". Shhh! :ok:

Unfortunately the GR9 will never go to theatre again; luckily the GR4 is there to pick up the baton, it's just politics, it's not personal - shout about it if you will but it won't change, we are lucky to have a jet out there at all. The lack of 'kenetic' effect is due to command and is the General's decision (McCrystal) and not the aircrew or local ground commanders, and a very relevant policy it is too. Fac buddy, go read LRB · Rory Stewart · The Irresistible Illusion it might help us all to understand a very complicated situation. Glad you're safe anyway and if the bad people do bring the badness then believe me, the GR4 is more than capable of bringing the 'pain' to any grid square you choose.

That is a fact.

Spugford
 

Feather my own nest indeed! I resent that accusation!
When it comes to comments about binning the Jag, I would face far too much banter from those I work with to air my views in public!
BV:ok:

Op_Twenty,

Surely the bombing accuracy of your GR4 is better than a grid square???

BS

Unfortunately the return of the bona-jet to the UK will undoubtedly mean more deafening air show hover-bovver.....

At least the racket was over with quicker in the days of the GR3!

Seriously though, enjoy your well-deserved break from the squalor of the North West Frontier, chaps....:ok:

I'm sure that both the GR9 and GR4 are far more effective in all roles than the B-word's wretched drones.....:uhoh:

Hey BEagle, did I see you outside Creech main gate this morning? :p

http://images.townnews.com/lasvegasc...2541_thumb.jpg

PS. The man, not the dog...

You're an idiot BS, but without guys like you this forum wouldn't have any posts, off you Viff, go on, shoo. (Someone remind me why we haven't scrapped this pesky little jet yet - apart from all the senior officer love-in?)

...and yet again BEagle demonstrates how divorced he is from combat operations in Afghanistan. The world of military aviation is changing. It certainly won't be as fun as the olden days but it will more effective and cheaper. Deal with it.

ps this isn't meant to imply the death of manned aviation.

pps for recce FAC - it still is a 9 line, or it was last week (haven't had one yet today!)

Op_Twenty,

Pretty weak banter I'm afraid...

Without sounding too much of a geek.It is a CAS BRIEF not a 9-line. A 9-Line is the report for MERT/CASEVAC.Splitting hairs but FAC's/JTAC's SHOULD use CAS BRIEF otherwise people start getting upset and confused in OPS rooms/TACP's. I understand you guys in the jets call it what you will. Standardisation dont you know. I bet a GR-9 Sqn use the correct terminology;) Boring triv stuff over.

Mr Grim... as much as it pains me, i have to agree with recc_fac on this one it is indeed called a cas brief now!

I think that B words est of the MQ9 dropping all that ordnance is a tad hopeful! I know as of last year it was averaging about one a month....with a hit rate of 100% every two months ;) too much time in down town LV if you ask me!! No offence guys....

Unfortunatly i have to side with B word, the need for UAV's is only going to get bigger. Fight as you might, think your as indispensable as the queen and your setting yourself up for a fall! The cost to build an airfix model..(sorry MQ9) and building a F35/Typhoon, manning it, fixing it does not compare (obvious). But with law enforcent in a certain gun crazy country now flying them, as well as customs and excise and border patrols, the cost effectivness of operating UAV's means there use is only gonna get bigger. If i was an F3 pilot i would seriuosly start thinking of maybe reaching for an application form! But id be v v happy to put my money where my mouth is too.... id happily fly the American Pred on anti piracy patrols.....the fact they fly from Male airport in Mauritious has nnothing to do with it! :ok:
Mr Grim call ready copy CAS BRIEF.......

Recce,

The guys and the airframe(GR4) are well up to the task and are conducting themselves just fine.

Pretty quiet out there at the mo and with the emphasis on kinetic's only in extremis,what airframe delivers the effect is not really a factor.

I know the silly season is going to be soon upon us but hopefully this year we will turn the tide and see the start of a new Afghanistan. If McChrystal's directive doesn't work and we don't see dividends, I for one don't believe we can ever make a difference.

Anyway,take care bud and see you 'down range'.