Whinging aircrew!
 

Let me start by saying what a surprise to find a website full of aircrew moaning about pay and conditions!
After hearing about PPrune at work at a certain FJ base (which will remain nameless) I thought it would be interesting to see what the guys were talking about. Well to be honest it doesnt surprise me in the slightest that its full of you guys whinging and bleating about how hard done by you are.
Why cant you just accepet the fact that aircrew are not the be all and end all of the RAF. We in the support branches have just as important a role if not more so than the aircrew.
If not flying you sit around the crewroom with a copy of the telegraph moaning that you deserve more than the already significant flying pay the rest of us do not get! If your job is demanding for a couple of hours a day, twice a week, this is more than balanced by most jobs in the RAF that are demanding 10 hours a day regardless of the weather.
Following on from this I would like to address the elitism that all wearers of a brevet seem to carry with them. In USAF and the RCAF all branches/trades have a specific brevet with differing insignia. This recognises the importance of all trades including the highly worked adminers like myself! Why should this not be the case in the RAF.....a modern airforce? Brevets are after all a hangover from the wartime days arent they?!

I would appreciate any thoughts on the above issues.

Suppose he`s got a point . . .

Admin guru I agree that there is no reason for aircrew to be elitist but your us and them attitude is cringeworthy. Let us get on with our job to the best of our ability and we'll let you get on with yours. I take offence at your implication that we don't do anything all day- get a life and check out some of the current deployments. As my IOT flight commander (an adminner and a good chap)said- the job of the airforce is to fly and fight, the job of those who don't is to support those who do. End of rant

Telegraph? TELEGRAPH! He can't be serious. Surely the modern aircrew only read The Times. I smell a Bluntie clone here.

What a surprise it is to find a bluntie moaning about aircrew moaning about pay and conditions!

Just another Troll to be allowed to slip down the page, I suggest.

You want a brevet do you?
Despite your stinking attitude, you may be right about other branches having some sort of insignia on thier uniform to identify what they do- though I do think wings would be a going tad too far.

Come to think of it, what do you all think about the wearing of brevets on items of uniform other than just flying suits, jerseys and no.1s etc? I`m sure if we suggested brevets on shirts, for example, our bluntie colleagues would accuse us of wanting to show off.

As for elitism, Admin Guru, just remember- I could do your job any day- you could never do mine.
<img src="tongue.gif" border="0">

Admin Grunt: Interesting to see a bluntie visit the Pro PILOTS Ru Ne and throw in a grenade. 'Aircrew are not the be all and end all of the RAF'. Interesting point but we are not here to hurl paperclips at the baddies - read again what Alf Aworna said 'the job of those who don't...' With respect, Sir, ram it. <img src="mad.gif" border="0">

Admin sec standards have slipped if he spells whingeing like that.....

Did he go to OASC wanting to be admin as his first choice, I wonder?

Boys and girls, relax. Read between the lines. This is so obviously someone's fishing exped it just isn't true.(Read Admin Guru's profile: Occupation, OC Admin at a "fast jet base that shall remain nameless". Oh do ***** off)
Whoever you are Admin Guru, if your initial comments are genuine I suggest you poke off;
On the other hand if you're some jibing idiot who likes to antagonise already stressed and weary people (of all trades) further still in the name of "humour" I suggest you poke off.
Your PPRuNe registration date suggests you thought of this little wheeze only this evening in the gap between Blue Peter and Neighbours.
I hope your next $hit is a hedgehog.....tail first...followed by it's extended family.

[ 17 January 2002: Message edited by: Talking Radalt ]</p>

Admin Guru has a valid point, even if he did not put it across very well, sure the members of the winged master race whinge a lot, if they didnt something would be VERY wrong <img src="smile.gif" border="0"> The grown up green men KNOW the importance of all their support staff and its up to them to teach their juniors the same. As for recognition well maybe if some of the `support` agencies actualy supported then maybe things would be better. For example, at a nameless FJ base Handbrake house closes it`s doors to customers when manning is tight, rather than taking the hit and working late or over the weekend. A lot of the so called `them and us` attitude is down to agencies complaining when their customers expect them to do the job they are paid for.

Looks like it's the open season again. :)

Of course, this 10 hours a day Admin 'Guru' refers to consists of 1/2 an hour each for morning and afternoon tea, an hour for lunch, ducking off to the gym for an hour and a quarter, going to the bank and the post office, punctuated by long bursts of swanning around to all your mates' offices drinking cups of tea and coffee and calling it 'liaison'.
After all that, no wonder he or she is feeling a bit knackered.

Admin Guru extoll the virtues of the Septic Tanks' form of recognition and yet the Yanks wear their wings on everything, if there's room aside the medals.
So, yes Admin Guru, put an SRO out tomorrow (best wait 'til after the weekend, it's too close to Friday's afternoon run to the bank), ordering all aircrew to sew their wings on to their desert fatigues, their Mk 18a Wooley Pulley, one off..blah....blah

Admin Guru

Good post! You are obviously in the business of stirring the pot to get some reaction - you must be bored!

If you are serious (heaven forbid), all I can say is that you need reminding that without aircraft and hence aircrew you don't have an Air Farce. What would you do/or bellyache about then?

Get back to counting paperclips and ensuring that handbrake house is only open for the convenience of those who work there rather than their customers.

<img src="wink.gif" border="0"> <img src="wink.gif" border="0"> <img src="wink.gif" border="0">

Admin Guru

...hope your post was in jest, but even so you need to indent for 1x life. You, Sir, have the attitude and outlook of a Fishead. :)

Whilst our blunt chum may well be a wind-up merchant, if he isn't then may I suggest that he reads the 'Latest TV advert' thread to understand how aircrew accept that their jobs wouldn't be possible without the supporting branches in the RAF.

Oh - and in your 10 hours at work today, O Blunt One, could you find out why I've been waiting for a pair of size 8 medium lightweight flying boots and an officer's SD cap to come into stores since 6 Nov 01; there is apparently 'an inability'? And then let us whinging aircrew know what active measures are being taken to improve matters?

Not a whinge, just curious.........

[ 17 January 2002: Message edited by: BEagle ]</p>

Admin Guru

SOD OFF BLUNTIE

currently employed over on the green and oh so damp isle working a 21days on 7 off shift.Our blunt chums complain that we are treated with a preferencial time off. 1. its not only us it's the gingers who have a similar shift 2. on my only blank day, sunday i cant get any F*$**** admin done.Oh and we aircrew work a 14 hr shift. As for the cock ups adminers manage can we NCR your type yet cos sure as **** if as an eng(in my former life) i screwed up i would have been.My advice to you is go for re-selection and contact me when youve visited south Armagh for some enlightning tasking. <img src="mad.gif" border="0">

Admin Gonad is covering some very old ground, both of his issues have been covered in Air Clues. Remember the Provost Officer who wrote a very nasty letter about our heroic aircrew? Even further back was the issue of brevets (not flying badges) for all. There was a quill in a half wing for our yappy admin type but my favourite was a little embroided snowdrop in a half wing....sweet!
This thread should be in the burn bag and our fishing admin gonads catch should be two of Captain Birdseyes finest...salutea! :)

I love this...when will we learn about the 'Japanese Trawlers' that appear on this site and their unscrupulous ways of getting a good 'catch'?

Come on guys...don't disappoint Admin Spanner!

If you don't like yer job b**ger off and find one you do like, I know many happy ground spikes who never want to fly, and all the rest do, as to a brevet, To55er!

I love Adminers. Who else would sort out my travel claims and rate 1s to help supplement my sadly deficient income?

Before I get flashed at I`m only playing Devils Advocate here . .. . . .

Admin Guru , whoever he is (or isn`t) DOES have a point about the brevets . Having spent some time with the RCAF , every man and has dog has one , as well as a "flight suit" and as such , the "them and us" attitude is far less prevalent .
You can even get Admin Support Badges for a flying suit !!!

I can`t believe that everyone has ACTUALLY DONE WHAT THE GURU SAID IN HIS FIRST LINE !! The best way to humble him would have been to say nothing !!

Brevets for all ! Give us something to laugh about in Happy Hour wouldn`t it ?

How unsurprised, I encounter the usual "shut up bluntie", "paperclip counter" attitude from those "well educated" aircrew types. For your information and those who did not read the first post properly, yesterday was my 1st experience of PPRune, hence my registration date.

I know I am not god-like aircrew, but I did not see the disclaimer banning anyone with related topics that arent pilots.

Bearing that in mind I have more to say. The attitude held by yourselves that we in handbrake house only drink coffee is as ill-informed as it is derogatory. Who processes your incorrectly written F1771s and F295d`s (for the young ones!).
Who looks after every single piece of admin that gets your jet in the air and your families medical and dental sorted out. All this without any threats of leaving for Anderson Consulting that would give me a salary dwarfing any offered by the airlines for pilots! On that subject I actually do have a PPL! So I am aware of the demands of flying.

I would like to see some reasoned arguements from the two wing master race answering my original questions. On the 2 wing master race, I would like to ask UAS "pilots" to kindly keep their weekend, student opinions to themselves. The issue of a white stripe, growbag and an attitude does not give you aircrew bragging "rights". I have more hours in my civvy log book than you will get on the Tutor.

I look forward to hearing some decent answers from you all.

Admin Guru!

Imposter!

A real OC Admin would spell and punctuate correctly.

A real OC Amin would not be at home posting to PPrune at 1630 on a Thursday.

A real OC Admin would have diligently read all the posts in this thread, not simply pounced on the ones which nearly stooped to the level of your opening remarks.

A real OC Admin would have checked pages 6 and 7 of the TV ad thread and been proud of the team spirit on display.

A real OC Admin would not have the time or money to waste on a PPL, which, I can assure you, is no introduction to the pressures of flying.

A real OC Admin wouldn't shout at the next generation, whose comments are as welcome here as anyone else's nonsense.

A real OC Admin wouldn't feel so unloved and unworthy as to have to provoke aircrew into admitting that blunties have a vital role to play.

A real OC Admin would be aware that aircrew do not work only for a couple of hours twice a week as evidenced by the quantity of paperwork required to detach and deploy them to 'interesting' places for long periods.

A real OC Admin would be aware that his limited experience in a very sheltered military environment would not get him a good job in the city.

A real OC Admin would have learned by now that if there really is a ground / aircrew divide that this will not be healed by bitterness.

Areal OC Admin...

... oh sod this I'm bored now. I'm off to book a week in the Seychelles and order my next Lotus.

[ 17 January 2002: Message edited by: Fanta Drinking Jessie ]</p>

FDJ,

Are you an adminer ? <img src="confused.gif" border="0"> <img src="confused.gif" border="0">

[ 17 January 2002: Message edited by: KD ]</p>

Hey guys!
Thanks so much for this string! I was missing all this "us v them" backbiting. And it is still funny how pen-pushers can whinge on and on about bloody aircrew, when, as previously mentioned, I could do his job with my finger up me a*se, whereas he couldn't do ours as long as he has a hole up his.

I could say that you should have worked harder at school, upped your work rate fella etc .... but im not going to.

i am heartened by the fact you realise the error of your ways and still hold a candle for the position of 2 winged master, perhaps a perusal at the wannabes forum might be in order!

maybe this will answer some of your points: I believe I am presently the worst paid 4 engined jet captain in the uk. I receive flying pay for numerous reasons, including the fact that I am in possession of marketable skills that, as a PPL, you do not yet posses. although many are happy with their lot many peoples priorities change.

"aircrew are not the be all and end all of the RAF" oh really! and what would your branch incompetently support without us? Remember, without aircrew you would merely be a member of the Royal Force.

if you dont like the moaning dont listen and dont read.

come over to the dark side so you can whinge too, at least you may be able to run an imprest properly.

No, KD, I am of the 2-wing master-race. But you can't help feeling sorry for the poor ******s. It's sad enough that God didn't bless them with the skill or intellect to be aircrew without some complete imposter coming here and making them all look like bitter, narrow-minded to55ers.

[ 17 January 2002: Message edited by: Fanta Drinking Jessie ]</p>

Oh hurrahh,

Back to this again. Sir, if you are a "real OC Admin", what do you expect posting such thing on a pilot forum. If you really beleive taht we only do a couple hours of work a day then you are very, very out of touch.

I prefer to think that this is just some one on a wind up, an hey, thats cool cause we all like bashing other trades (its called banter, blunties often don't get it <img src="smile.gif" border="0"> <img src="wink.gif" border="0"> )

Oh, and please don't have a go at UAS students and there postings, thats my job on my Sqn (Spacer, Flipper, are you out there?)

Anyway, I am sure the rest of you will continue bashing, and FDJ you are so right, Real OC Admin !!!!! <img src="confused.gif" border="0">

Tonks

FDJ - quality response Sir!!

To be fair to "Admin Guru", we do have a serious problem with Admin retention in the RAF - they are leaving in droves, and it is only a question of time before overstretch of Tac Admin Wg becomes untenable. And then what will we do? No, far better to give them some form of Admin pay - perhaps performance related - and generate a brevet for them. In fact, has anyone got any good ideas other than a "winged pen"? Perhaps we could have a competition.

In short, bless "Admin Guru and his ilk, for they are what makes the world go round.

UVG
<img src="smile.gif" border="0">

Dearest Admin Guru,

I would like to offer you the reasoned arguments for which you ask...

We get paid more due to simple supply and demand pressures. I contest that MoD would not pay more than the minimum necessary to recruit and retain any branch; this is true for ac drivers, doctors, dentists and dog-handlers alike.

Creating extra brevets would be divisive. Better to reduce the number of different badges or brevets surely and employ the 'all of one company' approach to bridge the obvious divide.

I hope that this is a satisfactory reply, however I do suspect that you are merely spoiling for a battle of wits for which it appears you are ill-equipped. If so, please come and have a go if you think you're hard enough, but remember: to do the same damage, a blunt object needs more energy than a sharp one.

Love always,

FDJ

BEagle

Are you sure you did not mistype the size of your boots? Size 8 medium? I thought there was supposed to be a correlation between the size of one's foot and that of one's willy!

Ah the sweetness of power! As a Sqn Cdr at Waddo in the '60s you had virtually none. But just once I managed to pull rank to good effect. The word was out that the aircrew feeder was not opening in good time to get the "0800 slot" off with a decent breakfast inside them. At 0400 one morning a Co called in to say he was sick and wasn't going to make it, so I slunk off down to Ops and announced a "no-notice" crew check. Everything went off tickety-boo and according to SOPs until at the due time we went into the feeder for our fry-up. No cook. I phoned OC Catering Sqn at his home and told him to get his arse into ops pronto. He tried to remonstrate so I told him I was standing in for one of my Flying Officers so he could bloody well stand in for his Corporal. The only time I have had a meal cooked by a Sqn Ldr!

Typical Admin. Working 10 hour days yea right. Come back the days when we flew 8 hour missions. It ain't worth getting out of bed for less than 12 now. Having come back from some where hot and sandy, the blunties came up with an idea of having Ord Off/Ord Sgt. Now who was under employed to think that one up. not to mention work parties on our day off!!!

Ops Admin Admin Ops. MMMMMMMMM <img src="confused.gif" border="0">

Brevets for all - GET FU&lt;KED IMHO.

Why should everyone have a brevet with different symbology, I think thats toss. What are the admin staff going to have? A single wing with an embroidered laptop? Or maybe a scroll to keep with the modern air farce.

Keep brevets for aircrew only and keep the healthy rivalry that is there between ground branch and aircrew. After all, admin struggles are the basis of most good aircrew moans after a visit to handbrake house.

I do like the idea of laughing at KD`s spot of the 'ADMIN SUPPORT' flying suit badge in the bar. What self respecting adminer would sport such a ridiculous creation? But it would be funny to see.

Live the dream admin guys! What was the failing - apptitude or medical?

Brevets for blunties?
Good idea.

To make it fair though, I suggest a brevet size corresponding to the amount of time spent in training. Obviously with the wings representing up to four years, the admin course of 10 weeks at Halton should be 1/20th size. I suggest a small pin badge with a handbrake in the middle.


<img src="cool.gif" border="0"> <img src="cool.gif" border="0"> <img src="cool.gif" border="0">

OC Admin at a fast jet base...?

Why not visit a fast jet base and tw*t the respective OC Admin - really hard. Got about a 1 in 6 chance of getting the right one.

[ 17 January 2002: Message edited by: Reichman ]</p>

Admin Guru,

'I actually do have a PPL! So I am aware of the demands of flying'

I can drive Golf Gti so I would probably be able to hold my own with Michael Schumaker in F1!?!

OPERATING a complex and dynamic weapon system in an uncompromising environment is SLIGHTLY different from taking your mother up to see her house.

If you are serious old boy, I despair. I strongly suggest that you actually VISIT one of the FJ sqns on your base and see what is really happening. On my base we are very fortunate to have a great relationship with all of the supporting units. Nevertheless, and I say this without ANY fear of contradiction, there is no single branch that works harder, be it in absolute hours or intensity of task, than the pilots.

I will not even go into the consequences of error - you are not worthy of my absent friends.

Beam me up!

Well I for one would love to be on Admin Guru's station. So OC Admin would sort out were my loved ones could go to the dentist!! He is a wonderful admin man or "Bluff Card" you be the judge. <img src="confused.gif" border="0">

Gosh this must be the fastest growing thread ever!

Anyway Admin Chappie,

Your quote of:

'All this without any threats of leaving for Anderson Consulting that would give me a salary dwarfing any offered by the airlines for pilots!'

If you had any commercial knowledge, you would know that Andersen Consulting was split last year from Arthur Andersen (accounting) to become Accenture. So you obviously have a complete lack of simple commercial knowledge too! And there's no way they'd employ an MOD accountant!

Now go back to your tactical green biros.

Admin "Guru".
Congratualtions. You speak such clarity.
On the other hand...
You are clearly a fake, a charlatan, an imposter, a living breathing Walter Mitty who yearns self-important yet finite popularity amongst his equally short-sighted peers, brought about by the claim that he "got those aircrew guys a treat".

So I tip my hat to you, for today you are the wise guy.

Tomorrow we will all still be doing what we love - flying...and getting paid for it...and receiving the mix of admiration and envy of those who appreciate what we do, adminners included.
You on the other hand will be left to scavenge like a hungry dog for another equally shallow solution to your thirst for so-called fame.
If you were half as smart as you incorrectly perceive yourself to be, you'd notice that most people contribute to this forum in a chatty, conversational style, not the IOT-taught grammatically correct grammar-school form of English that you have researched and subsequently mimicked to try and add weight to your juvenile rantings.
Your comments are so transparent they simply defy a reasoned, well-balanced response.

Good initial joke mate, now go finish your homework, it's nearly bedtime.