WHAT A SHAME
 

Isn't it a shame that we blue-jobbers are all afraid to air our views publicly? I thought the RAF wanted people who could think for themselves, had their own minds and weren't afraid to go against the grain. If I wanted to be a mind-less drone that just blindly followed orders, I'd have joined the Army. How wrong I was/am. I've seen so many people (including myself) who have tried to fight the system (not for the sake of it), and lost, and their 'career's' are destroyed by their 'superiors' via the annual confidential report. People should be able to state their views (as long as they don't personally insult anyone) without the fear of their promotion prospects going out of the window. I've had the privilege to meet some maverick RAF men/women who have some backbone and have not been afraid to challenge convention, but they now might as well PVR. I personally will be submitting my PVR papers this year, before my spirit is completely crushed by the system.

A 6 year SAC adminer. . <img src="confused.gif" border="0"> <img src="frown.gif" border="0"> <img src="eek.gif" border="0"> <img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0">

You don't work for Admin Guru do you? I'd understand your upset if you did. :)

I’m surprised that you haven’t been inundated with replies telling you to go and sort out some travel claims and stop being a sad tw@t. If you decide to PVR as some kind of protest against your annual appraisal,I can assure you that no one will give a stuff. You must be extremely naïve to believe that openly expressing contrary opinions will help your career prospects, in the RAF or any other organisation.

I would suggest the following options:. .1. Get posted, play station sport, get on the NAFFI committee, run a charity event, brown nose around your boss and keep you mouth shut.. .2. Don’t buy a video; don’t buy a car, save all your money and PVR. (Taken from the Midland Radar guard hut circa 1989)

It’s worth remembering that this is a Military Aircrew forum, I’m a very blunt Air Traffic assistant who lurks, to be enlightened and entertained.

You don’t also go by the name of Admin Guru, do you?

I understand your frustrations, but why give up! do something about it. If you feel the system stinks. Go for your commission and try and change the system from within. I know many engineering officers who would not have made Cpl ( due to options for change etc, or maybe I am too kind), but have now got quite a healthy career. What you must remeber is that everybody is sensitive to critism, therefore you may have to improve your delivery technique.

Good Luck with the future which ever path you choose.

As Taffmerlin suggests, it ain't always what you say, but the way that you say it. If you think the Service has got it wrong on a particular policy matter, why not send a letter to the RAF News? If published, not only will your letter come to the attention of the entire RAF brass (who, contrary to what you may read in this hallowed forum, are the guys who run the mob), but you will also keep a senior officer gainfully employed for a day while he drafts an official reply <img src="wink.gif" border="0"> Provided you make a calm, considered and well presented argument, it will almost certainly be published.

If the problem is more local in nature, then, take a deep breath, draft a memo (same principles as aforesaid letter apply) and send it up your chain of command.

Unfortunately, if you are just one of life's rebels, then the RAF probably is not for you. It is worth remembering that in any field of employment, you are always going to be answerable to someone, whose views will not always accord with your own. Sometimes, you just have to bite the bullet and get on with it. This can be particularly galling if you work for a complete to55er, but that's life matey.

Oh, and remember, this is a public forum, so (much to the consternation of the purists) you can air your views here on any subject you choose :)

[ 17 February 2002: Message edited by: Scud-U-Like ]</p>

When you are asked or told to do something $hitty just smile and do it, then later either on your own or with someone you can trust with the emphasis on trust talk it over and you can slag off whoever has upset you till your hearts content, it will make you feel better. I found out that if you speak your mind even when you are right, it will more than likely go against you. So basically bite the bullet and just play the game.

I say Smithy, its just not on, letting the side down like that. We true Blacksheep are made of sterner stuff! Dish out the criticism, take the brickbats and keep on working. You won't get anywhere but if you were a true Blacksheep you'd know you were right and you wouldn't care, you'd just get on with it. PVR? What kind of a sheepish characteristic is that? Perhaps the Royal Air Force really isn't for you, but true Blacksheep don't wimp out. We stand on our principles and either desert or mutiny. Get a grip man and do as Scud-You-Like suggests. The true satisfaction of Blacksheeping is that you can force the incompetent to respond and in doing so one hopes that they will find enlightenment when they research their reply.

Get on with it Smith, never mind the six year crap, sign on for twelve and try to really make a difference. Per Ardua and all that...

**********************************. .Through difficulties to the cinema

6 years - stil wet behind the ears! Try 15 and still feel frustrated!

I'm afraid in your position mate you are one of the smallest cogs in a big machine. If you want to change things then you have to bide your time, learn the hoops to jump through to move on up and then do something. But be under no illusion - the military as far as you're concerned is just that - a hoop jumping exercise. There are those above who have seen the likes of you several times before and have jumped on them too. Them's the facts <img src="smile.gif" border="0"> The Military is no place for idealism <img src="wink.gif" border="0">

But if it's any consolation my move outside is now earning me more than double what I earned inside - with a lot more job satisfaction :)

Molesworth - drop me a line - do I know you? (Ex AATC 80-95)

CM

Thanks for you advice everyone, and no I dont work for Admin Guru. <img src="smile.gif" border="0">

Thanks Arrse, and nice web-site. There is a lot of constructive advice up there, but essentially, I have to conform or get out, play the game, let the bull-Sh*t go over my head, and play my part in the generation of air power, and act as a force for good in the world etc etc etc..... I've actually got all the paperwork ready for applying for a commission. I figure, what the hell, if I don't try, I'll never know. Admin Sec looks like the natural way to go. Being an ex-ranker, I probably won't get past Flt Lt, but at least I won't be given sh*tty monotonous repetitive mundane task by a flight sergeant. <img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0">

No, you'll be given them Sqn Ldrs.

Who're given them by wg cdrs.

FIFO

SAC Smith. . .With regards to your remarks about the army in your opening post... you pompus ass.. .I spent 2 years pretending to be a infantry platoon commander before joing the RAF. My experience of both services is that i never, in 8 years, met an admin anything from sac to Wg Co who showed the leadership and managemnet skills that were demonstrated by many of the very switched on l/cpls and cpls i worked with.

So a 6 year sac adminer.....good going. What a shame the airforce dosn't have more 'mavericks' like yourself to save us all.

Talent rises to the top. I can only guess that your present prediciment speaks for itself.

Enjoy serving those burgers.

Bear in mind that scum also has an interesting habit of rising to the top (just look at a water barrel). .No analogies drawn with anyone here, cos I don't know you, but do you know anyone like that?!

touche,. .had the pleasure of lunch with a certain aoc 11 gp who's name couldn't be uttered in the bar. Yes many times did i sit in the crewroom and all we talked about was the tossers getting promoted etc etc etc. In many way's that is why i am a civie now!. .The original post however contained not a single positive thread. It talked about fighting the system and mavericks! My experience, all be it not a lifetime , was that the best Sen Officers / SNCO's all shared the talent of natural leadership and the ability to get things done both with and without the sytems help.

The force's offer the chance off achievement to everyone. Anyone who want's to blame the system for their lack of success is just copping out.

Spoilt Tom, sorry if I've caused you offence, I worked with the Army for 3 years, and that was my experience of them, which obviously differs from yours, but then this is a debating forum, so opinions are bound to vary. <img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0">

I think there is a distinction to be drawn between reasoned arguments for changes, and a merely windmilling in on an ad hoc "this is rubbish" basis. Adminers should know better than this; where as it seems to be the aircrew perogative to slate something that doesn't directly improve their standard of living, us in the admin branch realise the channels that need to be gone through to make changes.. .I agree, that those in the army are more used to taking orders rather than giving them.

For all you doubters; Cooperman take note, I have no SAC Smith working for me. Just for the record, my staff are highly motivated by me and my drive for perfection and there is little talk of PVR. Also, I believe that SAC Smith is possibly a made up name.

Ed Winchester, feel free to not come back and criticise me again. For those interested, my new Forum will come up next week.

Dear Admin Guru, I can assure you I am an SAC adminer, and if you read my reply to Fay in 'ONE TO ONE WITH CAS', you'll see I've had a change of heart. Are there any vacancies in your section?? And why are you so........ popular within this cyber-debating type place?

If it was between AG and SACSmith, I know which one I would rather have as sqn adj!

admin guano

to paraphrase python - its tw @ ts like you wot cause unrest.

your naivete is breathtaking. the proper channels to which you refer are quite simply ar$e. after 15 years in the service, following proper channels with suggestions of improvements leads to dilution up the chain, until it reaches the level where there is no problem whatsoever.

your comments about the army are arrogant in the extreme. I, personally, would rather serve with any member of the army than you. You would learn something about professionalism if you spent any time with them.

as regards your comments about your highly motivated staff, i put to you the monkey up a tree syndrome, where those up the tree look down to see smiling faces, whereas those looking up the tree can only see @r$eholes. i suspect the peter principle is applicable in this instance also.

i think there is quite a good case in this instance for enforced euthanasia.

best wishes :)

Thanks Douglas and Ham Fisted, but I'm starting to feel like a pawn in some elaborate grudge match between Admin Guru and the rest of the RAF. <img src="confused.gif" border="0">

Join the Navy... problem solved <img src="tongue.gif" border="0">

Join the Navy? Have you been on one of those floaty things? I've never seen such cramped, claustrophobic conditions, how anyone could enjoy operating in such an environment is beyond me. Plus you have to share rooms with people, who you may not like, and where can you go to get away from it all? Jump over-board? No thanks. As I said before, thanks to the replies I've had from this thread, it has made me realise that it aint all that bad afterall. <img src="cool.gif" border="0">

SAC Smith,

You're right there - it's a great life in the Forces. Rememember, the grass might be greener an the other side, but that's probably a result of the amount of manure thrown down from above.

Admin Guru,

Thanks for giving me the option of not replying, you're a true sport. Interesting that I should be singled out by your esteemed self (on two threads, no less), given the number of posters who have shown less restraint and just called a spade a spade.

Feel free to expand on which criticism irked you so much, so I can hone it further.

Meanwhile, let me just clear something up for you. Your 'new forum' would probably not make it on to this bulletin board. 'Military Aircrew' is a forum. 'WHAT A SHAME' is a thread. This is a reply. If you are happy to dish it out, don't go all http://www.stopstart.btinternet.co.uk/sm/gaga.gif when you get it back.

If you think you can't have an opinion read here:

ARTICLE 10

1.Everyone has the right to freedom of expression. this right shall include freedom to hold opinions and to receive and impart information an ideas without interference by public authority and regardless of frontiers. This article shall not prevent States from requiring the licensing of broadcasting, television or cinema enterprises.

2.The exercise of these freedoms, since it carries with it duties and responsibilities, may be subject to such formalities, conditions, restrictions or penalties as are prescribed by law and are necessary in a democratic society, in the interests of national security, territorial integrity or public safety, for the prevention of disorder or crime, for the protection of health or morals, for the protection of the reputation or the rights of others, for preventing the disclosure of information received in confidence, or for maintaining the authority and impartiality of the judiciary.

. .And if you think that Big Brother can track you through this site, read here:

ARTICLE 8

1.Everyone has the right to respect for his private and family life, his home and his correspondence.

2.There shall be no interference by a public authority with the exercise of this right except such as is in accordance with the law and is necessary in a democratic society in the interests of national security, public safety or the economic well-being of the country, for the prevention of disorder or crime, for the protection of health or morals, or for the protection of the rights and freedoms of others.

So spoilt tom - anyone who complains about their lack of success is copping out? that is why you are a civvy now? That is why you can comment about service themes now? that is why you tried the army for three years before the RAF? Copping out? you would know about that. I think the shut up or your copping out mentality you display coupled with the do as I say not as I do ethos is exactly why SAC Smith is leaving this joke of an organisation

Kiersaucy....... what a speech &lt;claps&gt;. I think you've put spoilt Tom well and truly in his place. <img src="eek.gif" border="0"> :)

SAC - I'd have to take issue with something in your 1st post here - don't fight the system, use the system. I'm not someone who blindly follows the rules - they are there for guidance and trust me, it is far more fun when you use them like that. Yes, there are things I'd love to change about the RAF, but I accept that something as big as we are (not compared to what we were) you're never going to agree with it all. Find the good bits & the good people - they are in the most unusual places - and enjoy what you can out of it. Here endeth the lesson. There - I feel better. Now, where is that AG gimp...... <img src="tongue.gif" border="0">

Copping out.......mmmmm

Mr Sauzy, i would never work for an orginisation i thought was a joke! who's copping out here?

Didn't get tired of the army mate, got offered the chance to fly! I'm not the one blaming the raf for my lack of promotion/oppurtunities. I quite understood and accepted that i would never make wg co without doing staff crap and being nice to blunties. Can't argue with that. However I can look back to my time in the RAF with a huge degree of pride and satisfaction. I got to achieve my childhood dreams. Having spent 8 years having a ball i decided i'd rather earn twice as much doing half the work. If thats your idea of copping out then guess your right!

My decision to leave was nothing to do with the 'system' or my promotion prospects. The Mrs wanted a better standard of life and as i already had the leather jacket and watch i left. Yeah knowing that the raf had it's fair share of tossers who would end my career overnight made the decision easier. However i worked with considerably more talented and exceptional people on my 2 squadrons, air and groundcrew, than i've met anywhere else since.

You would both do well to read and absorb superstackers post.

Achieve or leave.

[ 23 February 2002: Message edited by: spoilt tom ]

[ 23 February 2002: Message edited by: spoilt tom ]

[ 24 February 2002: Message edited by: spoilt tom ]</p>

The only thing that makes this organization a joke, is the amount of influence and power awarded to the less capable who walk amongst us. Those who don't actually strap a rocket to their backs once or twice a day and put their butts on the line. . .If those people would (or could) only perform their small (but occasionally significant) roles efficiently and professionally and not constantly whinge about the fact that "My job is just as important as yours (doh)!", maybe those of us actually doing the job would stay and put the Air back into Royal Air Force(!!??!)

Spoilt Tom was bang on, it's about time someone was, any surprise sur-f*****g-prise it took a ex-fighter mate to say it! The rest of you are just peeved that you don't have the choices some of us have - bit late to whinge now, you should've thought about that when you were at school

Nice one Tom - hope you don't bend your Speedbird as often as you bent your cars!!

<img src="mad.gif" border="0">

Unfortunately, that attitude of 'I've burnt holes in the skies so I know everything better than anyone else in the RAF' is exactly that displayed by 2 senior officers who are often mentioned in the Chinook thread. It's an attitude that has served the RAF badly for a very long time. <img src="frown.gif" border="0">

I hope that you made it on to Harriers or Jags, because your team building skills make you poorly equipped to get the maximum effectiveness out of other types.

Opso.. . . .A rather innacurate picture of anytimebaby dear chap. He won't show you but he's got a nice sword that he was given for being rather good at team building and leadership. In fact since he started as an airman and ended up doing the job/jobs that most AD mates would give their right bollock for he should be a role model for all the airman in the RAF that want to go out and achieve something. In fact the last time i had the honour of flying with anytime he was leading the biggest m'fkr package i ever saw and did it with a style and humour that from your post i can only guess you will never understand or be capable of.

Anytime, nice to see your still alive! Allways.

[ 24 February 2002: Message edited by: spoilt tom ]</p>

Good for him - and I hope he displays it proudly somewhere appropriate. But on an anonymous board, you can only assess poeple's attitudes from their posts. (As you have accurately got me pegged as a style-free and humourless individual.)

Anytimebaby's post certainly comes across as doused with the arrogant 'prima donna' attitude that has not helped the management or image of the RAF for a significant time. I do not, nor would not, suggest that all jobs are equal within any organisation, but neither would I say that unless you're a FJ mate, your job in the RAF is predominently insignificant and that you are either incapable or unwilling to do it. Anytimebaby does however say exactly that and whether he meant it that way or not, it is an attitude surprisingly frequently held by the FJ hierarchy (which is also the majority of the RAF hierarchy) despite having only limited validity.

By the way, whilst anyone that climbs the dungheap successfully must have some admirable qualities, but it doesn't guarantee what they are. Just ask anyone who knew TCC - JT to Wg Cdr, but still a ******!

Have to agree with opso on this one, Anytimebaby. Your attitude sucks.

(Edited for expletive deletion)

[ 24 February 2002: Message edited by: Scud-U-Like ]</p>

...

SACSmith,

If you have been wronged on your F6000 then simply use the chain of command and issue a QR1000 Redress of Complaint. If you have tried this line and failed then write to your MP who may raise a PQ in the house or he may write to the under secretary of state for defence on your behave. Visit your MP at his surgery and discuss the matter.

On the subject of Commissioning, you sound like an ok chap so you haven't got a hope in hell. Remember there is a test simply put do you have the C's or the S's in your character -

Co-operative. .Compliant. .Considerate etc

or

Self-centered. .Selfish. .Stupid. .Self-serving

If your an S man then you don't know the first thing about Honesty, Loyalty & Integrity and you are ideal commissioning material.

SAC Smith. .Question, why didn't you fill in your 'Comments by Subject Individual' box on your assessment form?, that's what it is there for. Or did you ? and if so what did you say? At least you now have the facility to officially comment on your annual assessment, and that was not how it used to be. So if you did't use it last time you know what to do next year.

anytimebaby. .It is comments like yours that make me want to start another Forum along the lines of 'Whinging Aircrew, still hitting back.' However, for PC reasons I am reluctant to do so. I am amazed at your provocative and unsubstantiated claims. What do you mean... "it takes a fighter pilot.." Has it ever occured to you that not all of the hard working and professional admin staff ever even wanted to be pilots? Or that some suffered under the eyesight ruling? Was your profile (the clue being in the fact this is your first post) created as a windup in between Eastenders and Millionaire?

SAC Smith - sorry, no vacancies although you sound highly motivated. Bear in mind there is no grudge between the RAF and I; some have just taken longer than others to see the sense in my Forums.. .JJ John - why do you continue to unleash your drivel onto these Forums? Get some time in.

Ed Winchester - again feel free to exercise your right not to reply to my post. However I found your sentence "This is a reply" particularly informative. I'm sure that my fellow PPruners were extremely grateful for that explanation.. .I can take banter aswell as the next guy, after all I've spent more than enough time around the chaps in SSS who like to dish it out!

uncle peter. .Your comments concern me greatly. If the proper channels are complete arse, then exactly how do you advise going about things? If you see them in a bad light, then surely they need changing for the better. I shudder to think how you would go about business if this is your view of official procedures.

Ham Phisted. .Many thanks for the support and offer of job as your sqn adj. Maybe if my Nav cross over doesn't work out I can move your way!

6nandneutral, first of all, I've had some drinks, so bear with me. I did fill out the reply section of my F6000, but as you well know, you have to play the game. I said something along the lines of "This is a fair and balanced report, and the 1st RO has encouraged me to excel. I will strive to do better". If the promotion board see me whinging, they'll immediately cast my report aside like a piece of rubbish. Despite my shift in attitide from my initial thread, I like to think I have enough sense to know that on my F6000 I should be the 'token SAC'. <img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0">