UK RAF launches Afghan work-up with Merlin helicopters
 

Well, the "RAF Merlins crews unwilling to go to Afghanistan?" was closed, so for all you Merlin supporters, Flight International has just published an update on preparations/training for deployment (maybe old hat to some of you).

and

Full Article

Dear oh dear.

Where do you start?

Where do you start?

Brandnew will chip in with some carefully phrased implication that the ‘junior branch’ of the RAF’s SH component – the immature ‘juvenile’ Merlin force (comprised as it is of SH force rejects and obese 17 stone crewmen) who showed indecent haste in running from Basra, and who exaggerated their minimal contribution in Iraq, are not a patch on the Chinook force, for whom he has a colossal hard on, and he will insist that Merlin force standards need to be dragged up to the level of the Chinook Force….

He differs from Evalu8or, in that he thinks the Merlin is great and it’s the operators who are merely ‘adequate’ air centric shirkers who don’t give a toss about the air land picture. Said Evalu8or will harp on about how the RAF were forced to buy the inadequate and unjustifiable Merlin, and should get rid of it forthwith, that it isn’t a patch on Chinook, that Puma is more useful, etc.

Junglies various will jump on the ‘slag the light blue Merlin bandwagon….’

Nigegilb will continue his ‘Merlin protection is inadequate’ crusade, harping on and on about the operational failings of Britmil FW/RW air presumably in the hope that it will further enhance his political career, and his parasite Chugalug will ra ra noisily. He may or may not start beadwindowing others for repeating stuff that’s already in the public domain.

The Wizard, CompressorStall and Strobin’Purple will mount a restrained and mature defence, but won’t match the willy waving excess of the green (with envy?) Junglie boys, Chinook Primadonnas and Army Air Corps wannabes – none of whom are representative of their commun ities, most of whom can see that the professionalism of the Merlin force matches their own, and appreciate the qualities that Merlin brings to the party.

Seldomfitforpurpose may blaze away with a little more lead in his pencil…..

MGD will be firm but fair, or piss-taking, depending on his mood....

A mod will intervene and close the thread.

Let's see, December weather, min 10 deg max 19 deg record 28 deg.

Kandahar, February weather, min 11 deg max 18 deg, average 15 deg.

Must say I am surprised but looks like they may be right.

By taking your hat with you WHEN you get summoned to Wilton. Have fun.

According to Wiki, El Centro is 50' below sea level.........so minus 50' at plus 19 degrees C......hmmmmmmm not quite the hot and high environmental training I was expecting!! Maybe it's really, really dusty - yes that must be why they didn't go to North Africa instead:)

Jackonicko
 

"You've been here before":}*

*Your (possibly accurate, but definitely funny) post reminded me of the scene from the film 'liar liar' where Jim Carey picks up his car from the car pound, and he describes his intentions to the car pound worker, who just replies "You've been here before"

One of the funnier thread predictions I've read in a long while.:ok:

"He does know one of the cleaners on 28 sqn so that will suffice."

Are you that cleaner?

It's a good R&R spot!
 

And they can pop over to that great holiday spot Big Bear Lake every day, well five days a week!

Yawn! Keep on jumping on the bandwagon. Meanwhile for those who take time to read a little more than the edited highlights;


Marine Corps Air Ground Combat Center Twentynine Palms - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

What a complete waste of time eh?:rolleyes: :ugh:

Sorry about that tourist, but those morons at pprune towers are responsible.

Yes I am. At least it is better than being some wannabe aircrew person, scumbag journo who thinks he knows everything.:ok::ok:

I guess Scotland and Wales don't count then. Well the welsh don't anyway.

Ahh that's better.

"At least it is better than being some wannabe aircrew person, scumbag journo who thinks he knows everything"

Wannabe? Too old. Aircrew person? Not professionally. Journo? Yes. Scumbag? Quite possibly.

But I am also a pilot (amateur), I grew up in an RAF family, I am ex-UAS, and I do have stick time in a range of helos, and I have flown or flown in helicopters from R-22 to Mi-26, (or military from Gazelle to Mi-24) and with air forces from the US to Poland.

None of which means that I know everything, of course, nor have I ever made that claim. But that, coupled with knowing a 'cleaner' or two, does give me an opinion, and I hope that I have the humility to know the limitations of that opinion.

An aside from the discussion, but could one of the crews fly one out to Miramar? Be nice to see a Merlin again :ok:

Interesting, so how many does the Scottish and Welsh Royal Air Force Have?? :p

And before you say it we know Wales has an RAF Chinook as his family hack ;)

With respect Jacko, and I mean that - you do seem to know your stuff, however you do come across as awfully biased agianst FAA/AAC. Although in this particular case, the Merlin crews seem to have made a good choice - i'm sure they did a good job in Iraq, and deserve a decent training ex - Wizard's extract does seem to point to the fact it is a massivly important training area for US forces about to Afghanistan - ALTHOUGH I will make the point that it seems more built around training for the ground elements more than the air elements of the Marine Forces - of all the facilities listed there, it's hard to see what there is specifically for helicopter training they couldn't have got elsewhere... hmm

Fingers crossed that this thread doesn't turn into the utter debacle that the last one was, with caution thrown to the four winds and dirty laundry aired for anyone to see by people who should know better.



Also, as a Welshman, I resent that damn remark in the extract. As if the English don't act overly superior enough as it is:ok:

FACT: it is F**in Hot in Sthn Cal right now - and equally as hot in and around the training areas within a few hours. The Terrain there is also Bl**dy High. There is also a lot of Sand, dust, haze - and hugh tracks of training air and ground space.....You also might get a US ATC to talk to and even US Forces to play with....You might even get to integrate with other UK asset there. Sounds a lot like the Stan to me.

I Don't seem to recall much of that in the UK -all at once.

Yeoman D,

Thanks for that.

I hope that it's clear that I recognise that the RN, RAF and AAC folk I criticise are the exception, not the rule, and that they are NOT:

"representative of their communities, most of whom can see that the professionalism of the Merlin force matches their own, and appreciate the qualities that Merlin brings to the party."

It was also intended as banter.............

I put the Flight International article on here just to highlight the latest information on the Merlin's fleet preparation for deployent to AFG. Shortly afterwards I leave for dinner at a friends and come back (admitably not too sober) to find a whole raft of posts that do not necessarily do justice to the situation.

For once, can we not have a reasoned discussion on a subject that does not sink to the level of (for example) the previous closed thread?

Ah well, time for bed.

Jacko,
At the risk of biting...

You are entirely correct in saying that I continue to remind people of the politically motivated decision to buy the Merlin in 1995. IMHO, such a decision, which forced the MoD to spend more money on less capable helicopters should not just be swept under the carpet.

However, I have been consistant in praising the efforts of the crews (and indeed the platform) in both Bosnia and Iraq. The Merlin has done well in both theatres (to the surprise on many), but it (nor its' crews) have been exposed to the rigours of HERRICK. That's why they are in the US. The Merlin will supplement the force structure in AFG; but ask the Theatre Commander if he'd want 6-8 Merlins or 6-8 extra Chinooks it is obvious what the answer would be. Which brings us neatly back to that decision in 1995....

I suspect that there are circumstances in which a Merlin is a better 'fit' for a given task, and others (probably more of them) where a Chinook is preferable.

It's the contention that a Chinook is always better that strikes me as being silly.

In fact, and accepting they are different theatres with different challenges, the Merlin actually ended up as a better fit for MND(SE) than the Chinook - enough internal fuel to get to the very edges of the AOR and hang about a while (up to an hour more than a CH47), a significantly more comfortable and slightly faster ride (as good for CASEVACs as it is for VIPs, and actually taking troops a long way in comfort means they get there in better shape). Of course, there are areas where the CH47 wins, but actually when we looked at what the task actually was and what had been done there were only one or two occasions in the whole time since TELIC1 that it was really necessary to lift a vary big load.

Jacko,

thanks for making me chuckle after a crap couple of days. Unfortunately I am tired and just about to go on my hols with the little diplomats, but you seem to have the thread summed up.

Nothing to see here, moving along.

Have a very happy holiday, MGD. You deserve it.

Yes, mgd, have a good time. Not going to the beach by any chance? :}

No beach. Sand doesn't seem to excite me these days. Off to France to visit Monsieur Mouse.

Well, the family is. I'm on a merlot buying trip.

c4aero
 

There is no point in harping on about the 1995 decision. Ye Gods, that was 14 years ago! The facts have never been swept under the carpet. The RAF and its customers needed lift; the Op Reqt indicated Chinook as best value for money. All correct. The Government decided that AgustaWestland needed to be safeguarded, arguing as successive governments have done also, that maintaining a rotary manufacturing base in country is vital for national security. I would add that keeping people in jobs in the UK itself saves lives, because if you don't have industry you don't have money to spend on equipment, so people die. Buying off the shelf is not always the answer.
But the real point, surely, is that Merlin has surprised a lot of critics, has complementary capabilities to the admirable Chinook, and for some missions is the platform of choice. Let's all wish the crews and the supporting staff well in Theatre.
Finally, I find despicable some of the intemparate language used by people hiding behind nicknames. Not what I'm used to hearing from aviation afficianados. Can we all grow up, please?

Occasional Aviator.

Here goes - I am sorry to disagree with you.

Endurance: The Chinnies very big load you mentioned could of course be fuel, which means that her endurance is greatly enhanced, whilst still maintaining a massive internal payload.

Delivering the Troops in Better Shape: WTF??? That is just made up bollox.

VIP: Great! A bit of a waste of cash though and what have the VIPs been traveling in for the last X years?

We are stuck with the poor purchasing decisions of our forefathers. The extra lift will be gratefully received in Afg, but to suggest that buying the Merlin instead of more CH is just more bollox.

Holding the pin; waiting for the bang.....

Spin

We've already bought them.

It may also be a shock to the system, but King George VI popped his clogs as well! Terrible, but we've got a new Queen!

For any updates on the last 50 yrs, just PM me, I've got Google.

Pip pip

SP

I don't post here much but here goes!!!

I agree that the Chinook is a hugely capable aircraft (10 tons etc etc) and political decisions were made to buy the Merlin and not other types, however that doesn't change the facts as they are now and is largely irrelevant as the clock cannot be rolled back.

We have differing types for a range of jobs, yes Chinook can do most but it also has its drawbacks (wait for spindrier to pick himself up of the floor).

Merlin can do many but not all is a given however the point of fatigue whilst flying is very real and relevant and shouldn't be dismissed out of hand as 'bollox', this has come from the troops themselves so who are we to argue!

Another drawback of the Chinook is that it can be heard long before arrival whereas other types have a much reduced noise signature which may be of huge advantage in particular circumstances, again this has been commentated favourably on directly by the users.

The advantage of modern design, avionics and materials at times is offset by the complexity and engineering support however the Merlin brings a lot to the party (sigh, yes I know still not as much as the all revered nook!) and hopefully will complement with assets already in place.

Note- I said complement not compete which some seem to confuse.

SH and the differing types are not perfect and we should just play to each others strengths and minimise the weaknesses.

Rotor blades and such
 

Sorry to butt in , just a question from a complete layman when it comes to Helicopters.
Does the Chinook also have the same system like I believe the Merlin has which prevents rotorwash or at least reduces it to an acceptable limit ?
Seems like a usefull thing to have in dusty areas like Afghanistan (and also Iraq I guess).

I know the US' Blackhawks don't use such rotorblades but I think they have some electronic visualization system which actually also can deal with the rotorwash problem.

Any answer would be appreciated, thx in advance.

The Merlin's rotor downwash is such that it produces a 'doughnut' with a pretty clear 'hole' in the middle, and this reduces the risk of 'brownout'.

The Chinook does not produce quite the same effect.

The Merlin doughnut is a nice marketing ploy, and there are some nice photos to support it. However, at a recent brown-out meeting it was discounted by the crews as having any real impact on the brown-out problem. The Merlin does not have the ideal undercarriage configuration for dust landings, unlike the Sea King, Blackhawk and Chinook (and Wessex!!) where you can plant the tail wheel(s) quite hard in the flare and then level due to the wheel being towards the back of the airframe and the TR being relatively clear. Despite being in Iraq for the past few years the crews have done relatively few dust landings in virgin desert (as the majority of landings were at well-founded sites). This has been recognised and it is one of the reasons why the guys/girls are States-side at the moment getting some practise in. Anybody who knocks the Merlin force for going to the US needs to be put back in their box.

Kbrockman,
Don't believe everything you read in the press. Nobody, to my knowledge, has operationally fielded an electronic visualisation system yet. There are a number of aids - DNVG, FLIR, LLTV and digital flight control systems that can help now and more such as LIDAR, MMR and Synthetic Overlays that are in the experimental phase. The problem is clearing such devices to a high level of safety integrity if you intend to use them to land the cab in reduced visibility.

Fire Axe,
Good points well made. Merlin's achilles heel since ISD has been logistic support and a distinct lack of spares. Over a flat theatre such as Iraq the noise arguement carries some credibility, but not all of the world is a billiard table. My reason for banging on about the '95 decision is that if, and it's a big if, extra money is found for more SH (a chunk of T3 Typhoon money would do the trick....) we need to make the right choice (this time) and buy CH47F not Merlin - though we should buy another 6 Mk3a Merlins to build some resilience into that "mini-fleet".

Speed may be a red herring too as for most, but not all, circumstances the speed of the escort may be the limiting factor...........

I understand the payload may be not practical for readiness roles either.............

The Merlin's rotor downwash is such that it produces a 'doughnut' with a pretty clear 'hole' in the middle, and this reduces the risk of 'brownout'.

It is unlikely that that doughnut is unique. All single main rotor helicopters should produce about the same downwash image on ground or sea surface.

The magnitude of the downwash is of course proportional to the amount of momentum the helo's rotor system is imparting to the surrounding air mass. Since your mighty Merlin's rotor probably has faster angular velocity than a Chinooks' rotors, the Merlin might actually stir up more dust in some cases.

Similar remarks apply to the noise of helicopters. If you want to try to make a big sales point out of a Merlin being quieter than an H-47 -- and I expect that the Merlin is less than two decibels quieter -- than you shouldn't object if Sikorsky claims that their S-92 is a better choice for combat search and rescue than the Merlot because the S-92 is a bit smaller and therefore somewhat quieter than your wizardly 'elicopter.


( Doing a Google search for photos of helicopters hovering over water, with downwash images/patterns in the picture. Can anyone help with that? )

Here's one photo of a Merlin and its downwash pattern at a certain altitude and thrust output. Is that what you call a doughnut pattern? That downwash image is not at all unique to the magical M.

http://navy-matters.beedall.com/images/merlin05.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v6...Picture2-3.png

Re brownout:

See P.9 of AFRL Rotorcraft Brownout Integrated Solution Study

http://www.dodsbir.net/Sitis/view_pd...20Overview.pdf

see also

http://www.vtol.org/vertiflite/brownout.pdf

Merlin is considerably quieter than Chinook, and the noise is less directional. A Merlin can fly past my office window and unless it's open, I won't hear it. A Chinook gives me enough warning to go outside and look up and see it pass by - and the sound characteristics are such that you always know exactly which quadrant of sky to look at.

The S-92 is also noisier, in my experience.

crew that was on the merlin overnight at Big Bear fri to sat at the air fest
 

i am looking to find the 2 crew memeber who where on the merlin overnight fri 28 to sat 29 aug (night before the Big Bear airfest)
would like to talk to them again i am one of the civil air patrol memebers who was talking to them they know who i am i was the older one of us 3

Spindrier,

read my post.

I said 'internal fuel - ie without a bob tank. Merlin goes longer and further - oh and can put a bob tank in. CH47 goes further if you really want by putting two bobs in, which Merlin can't do. But then you're not

Not according to the troops I carried. Also you seem to sidestep the point about a smooth ride being good for casevac - the Merlin's pretty damn smooth right up to Vne, so no big decisions about fast n' bumpy versus smooth n' slow. OK so no-one buys a helicopter for VIP, but you're gonna do it.

It was a political buy - get over it. I never suggested buying Merlin instead of CH47.

10200KG of gas.Merlins, see you in the eastern med? No?

Assuming the casualty is carrying crampons for the ramp, and as long as the taliban pick their noses whilst you carry out the longest dust landing approach known to modern civilisation.

MGD - will you also lapse into how big an underslung load you can carry too? It really is quite tiresome.

Yes - the Chinook can carry lots. Yes - the Merlin has a steep ramp. The Merlin has a tail rotor (see AP3456) and its dust landing arrival is not as dramatic as a Chinook (from your limited viewings of it), but all of this will be conquered.

Perhaps you might like to consider that whether you like it or not, the Merlin is deploying to theatre and it does not help the customer if people spend their time knocking a capability before it has arrived.

There is a world outside of Odiham you know.

Standing by for the inevitable... will Brandnew be joining in with his in-depth Merlin knowledge too?