He seems to have summed up things for me pretty well. As I am still serving, I guess his points must have a degree of relevance, as opposed to your rose tinted nostalgia. I think it's time you moved onto one of the civil forums. Your vast corporate experience will undoubtably be much sought after there.

I personally think CAS is a New Labour stoolie, who has done absolutely nothing for the RAF other than hasten a great deal of departures.

First of all, I don't have a particular axe to grind, but a couple of points....

1) Anyone who assumes a position of responsibilty puts themselves in the firing line for people to 'have a pop' at. The fact that they can't always reply just goes with the territory. So in the same way that the England football manager is no doubt criticised in some football forum, CAS can expected to be criticised/praised/commented upon in a forum containing a large number of RAF members, both past and present. IT GOES WITH THE JOB.....

2) How would people define the Sir Glenn years as CAS....? It seems to me in these sort of cases it boils down to one or two things. For example, if we take Prime Ministers, to me Thatcher is Falklands War, reining in the power of the Trade Unions, rampant capitalism, while Blair is Spin and Iraq.... So how would you define the Sir Glenn years as CAS, and would it be for what he has done (the rise of Air Power doctrine?), or what he hasn't done (spoken out in public)....? And previous CASs for comparison......?

The Sir Glenn years as CAS, hmmm....

In a single word, disappointing.

At a time when the RAF needed someone strong at the reigns (and not just 'strong behind closed doors') the RAF found itself blessed with a bureaucrat, seemingly more concerned with feathering the nest than showing the kind of loyalty to his troops that is expected from them to the hierarchy.

Happily I'm no longer in a position where this puppet is my CEO though I feel for those I've left behind under his care.

EASY! The Sir Glenn years...
 

...saw a decrease in number of personnel, morale and capability.

...saw an increase in PVRs, OOAs and number of Air Ranks.



4 out of the above 6 points can be proved using figures available to us all.

Morale and capability are more subjective but I'd happily argue on both counts.

Pure Pursuit:
Why? Because it's always been like that? Is that how Tescos select their SEOs? I think that cosy system rather went to the wall in WWII. We are once again at war and we need the best people in charge. Just to be really controversial, if the RAF seriously cannot muster someone from within fit for the job, which I very much doubt (and he/she does not need to be a pilot, or even aircrew IMHO), then look outside. Trenchard did the job well enough didn't he? Maybe another airminded senior Army officer would meet the bill. At least their track record for standing up for themselves and their subordinates inspires some confidence. Someone has to knock the Royal Air Force back into shape, and that someone has to be at the top!

Chugalug2,

the ministers choose the Chiefs of Staff and lets face it, they will never select anyone who may be seen as a man or woman who will make waves during their stay in office.

Tescos etc are driven by profit and will always seek out the best man for the job.

"the ministers choose the Chiefs of Staff". Then change that system! The Government may resent every pound spent on Defence, but then they can see that UK Defence is now poor value for money. The one good thing that Brown did was to cut loose the Bank of England. Maybe it is time to do the same with the selection of the Chiefs. "Yes Men" are no good for anyone, including those they say "Yes" to. The present system has degenerated into a hopeless quagmire. It has to be reformed at MOD and Senior Officer level of all three Armed Services, and that reform must start at the very top.

CAS Selection
 

Chugalug2:
No and I bet that no other major company/industry would select a CEO based upon his hand/eye co-ordination at an early age either!

If we really need a CAS that is the right person for the job, why must they wear a brevet? (I know, I'll get my coat!)

InTorWot:
Well please don't do so on my account ITW, as I quite agree with you. It seems to me that hand eye co-ordination can be a real impediment if it gets in the way of other requirements, like moral courage, empathy, selflessness, you know, all that stuff that real leaders have! If the RAF turns its backs on 9/10ths of its talent to put forward its "candidate" then I suggest its problems start right there. Maybe even a case for some Senior Blanket Stacker wannabe to take them to law over? No, let's not go there again. This is not about human rights, it's about the future or lack of it of the Royal Air Force, it needs sorting before the next Buggins whose turn it is gets the top job.

My perception, rightly or wrongly in the 70s, was that some pretty unlikely people were getting promoted because they were the only ones who hadn't PVRd or gone at an option point. These promoted people are now 3 or 4 ranks higher and the process continues. Many of those with a bit of get up and go have got up and gone!

A a not so humble ex-sootie working hard in civvy street, my opinion of CAS is that he would not be fit to answer the phone i reception, let alone a position of trust.

A2QFI,

I quite agree with you, many of the 'good guys' become frustrated and leave for a company that offers proper rewards for their significant efforts.

The guys at the top will always be wearing wings, never going to change and, to be honest, I'm not sure it should! Would a FC, ATC or and engineer do a better job? I doubt it as anybody who gets to the top has 'played the game' and chosen the career path well. People who do that, cannot have the interests of those around them truly at heart.

Pure Pursuit:
Should not your question be could they possibly do a worse job, PP? As to your observation that anyone who gets to the top ipso facto has not the interests of his subordinates truly at heart, I would suggest there are many examples that prove you wrong. Let us be clear though, those who occupy the post of Chief of the Air Staff, or for that matter other Air Officer appointments, should primarily have the interests of the Royal Air Force and the National interest at heart. The bottom line is that the interests of those who serve in the RAF are secondary to those two and in the final analysis sacrificed to them. Military leaders send their subordinates to war, often to die. Their side of that sombre bargain is they fight like hell for the interests of those they so send. That is why Bomber Harris was a great leader. I do not see his like around these days. Time we started looking, everywhere.

Well I too am currently serving and I too have to agree 100% with Winco on this one, but Ive never had the chance to say my parts or question him like many of us serving as these interviews are always restricted to yes people. I do think we need a Dannet in charge rather than a Torpy , Dannet stood up to the government and said what needed to be said , he got F***** over but he had balls and with that I respect that. The CAS in my view is just saying that the government wants him to say.

Hear what all of you serving guys are saying: do you represent your views, 'forcefully', to your Boss/Stn Cdr? And to AOC on his annual visit? Or am I so out of touch that such representations are pointless? Years ago, the odd senior person listened, but not without risk of potential career damage. Any change?

Last time I stood having tea and biscuits with the AOC, I got the distinct impression that everything I said travelled in through the left ear and out through the right. Unfortunately, everybody else came to the same conclusion so no, it wasn't simply because I was being a boring :mad:!

P.S. If you haven't already downloaded 'Google Chrome' as a web browser, try it out. It has a spell check; ideal for those late weekend, wine induced posts!:ok:

A certain female AOC once told me that just because you have rank on your shoulders, it does not mean that you have a monopoly of common sense and good ideas!!

To be fair to a previous CAS (name escapes me but it'd have been about 1998) when he visited our little TSW det at R850 for a chat during his whirlwind tour of Ulster he had his Warrant Officer take the Flt Lt (who was the Aldergrove based TSW 'chaperon') for a walk elsewhere so that he could have a proper chat with us.

Although it probably didn't do much good in the long run it did make us feel much better.

Unfortunately the last opportunity I had to 'have a word' with one of our glorious leaders was when Browne visited Odious the other year for a grip and grin photo call with a carefully prepared for Q&A session afterwards. Unfortunately he only had pre-prepared answers for the easier questions and anything that veered outside of those questions raised by those defence experts at 'The Sun' resulted in blank looks and "we'll get back to you on that". For instance, service personnel now being classed as 'Key Skill Workers' to enable them to get assistance to buy their own house's, yet only in the SE of England and only if they can guarantee they will be based in (not living in) the SE for at least 5 years! How could a service person guarantee that?

They never did get back to me, even though the Staish, some admin bint from Strike and Browne's assistant all took my name and details of the question raised.

Anyway, I digress.

Prior to him becoming CAS we had a nice chat :E on a display line at MPA. Following which his ADC took notes, name etc etc.

Surprisingly ...... nothing was changed. :(

JP,
I think that, having read some of the comments posted since my last contirbution, I am speaking for the majority of those who still in! Please don't think I'm proud of that, because I am not. On the contrary, I would much prefer to see that we had a CAS who was prepared to tell it as it is, and NOT tell those above him what they want to hear.

Cazatou,
Do I take it from your lack of reply to my earlier posting that you have nothing further to add to this debate? I note on another thread that you are one of the few who have 'exceptional' in your flying log book. Well done Sir, I salute you! I think it bears out what I said in my earlier comment about how rank bears no reflection whatsoever to aviating ability eh? Perhaps you would do us all the great honour of advising what rank you were when you left, just to concur that please? Thank you.

Lets be honest.
 

Gents, some things will never change. Nothing we can do will solve the problem as the big cheese is only looking out for his pension and nothing else.

I left the RAF 10 years ago, after 25 years service, at the insistence of (the now former Mrs Taxydual). I left a career and a Service I loved. I regret it to this day. However, it was my signature on the form.

Daily, I read (through this site and the newspapers) of the malaise that the RAF appears to be suffering. I say 'appears' because, obviously, after 10 years, I am out of the loop and cannot speak first-hand.

One thing does intrigue me though. Can the blame for this malaise really be laid at the feet of just one individual? Namely Sir Glenn Torpy. Can a transient, ie 2/3 year in post, CAS have that much influence on the morale and attitudes of the RAF as a whole?

May I say that Winco and the rest of the whingers on this site do NOT represent the views of the majority of the members of the RAF or at least the people I work with. I have been in for a while now and the only place that I consistently read or hear of complaints concerning the current CAS is on PPrune. He is certainly not a major topic of conversation in my crewroom. These complaints seem to come from the same individuals all the time. I also find it intriguing that some individuals who have long left the Service know so much about how he does his job. May I ask a couple of questions of those who question CAS' ability to do the job along with his integrity?

When did you last speak to him face to face?
Have you ever asked him directly to do anything for you?
If so, what response did you get?
When was the last time you sat in on a meeting between CAS and any member of the government so that you can say with some conviction that he just rolls over and does the politicos bidding?
How many of you have been awarded the DSO?

If I may add my two penn’orth. I didn’t serve under the current CAS so I don’t know what he is like as a leader although I do know he was decorated for his leadership in GW1.

The point I wish to make is how many of you gentlemen have taken over a staff appointment only to find that you have been handed a crock of s**t/cluster f***/whatever-you-may-call-it by your predecessor(s). Then compare that situation to that of the current CAS – although, in his circumstances, the situation is probably on a grander scale. I’m pretty sure that the seeds of the whirlwind that is blasting away at the current CAS were sown some years ago, so shouldn’t some of the angst be directed toward those who did the sowing?

mileandahalf,

Wrong and right.

Wrong - I have read every post and paid great attention to what has been said. Which prompted me to post.

Right - I am a happy person and still enjoy being in the RAF.

Could you please answer the questions I have posed above? Just for completeness you understand.

mileandahalf

If I may echo vmv2's reply..Wrong and right - the only difference between vmv2's answer and my own is I am enjoying being out of the RAF. I suppose in your view, all the problems, actual or perceived, are all down to the man himself, it's only happened during his current tenure and it's got nothing to do with actions that were (or were not) taken by his predecessors.

The fact that I am not knocking the man doesn't mean I think he's a good leader and the best man for the job... or not! I' ve expressed an opinion which is similar to the point made by taxydual.

I won't make derisory comments just because I happen to disagree with what has been posted.

taxydual:
In a word, TD, no. I think I said as much in an earlier post. That isn't the point though. It's a question of leadership. Given that there is the malaise of which you speak, then the person in charge, ie the CAS, should be seen by one and all to be addressing it. I, admittedly from outside the RAF now and outside the loop as you say, see no sign of it. The Army, with similar worries, has a CGS who is addressing them and can be seen to be doing so even to my myopic view. It is that disparity which is so striking, and to be fair to Sir Glenn so typically RAF!

Thanks Chug. Point taken.

You are the type of person we all avoid. perhaps you should leave Prune and go back to your Ivory Tower.

minigundiplomat,

Sorry, but I don't get your point about an ivory tower. There isn't one in the hangar I work from.

The point of my original post was to express my opinion that Winco's statement that he was "speaking for the majority of those who still in" was not correct as far as our squadron is concerned. I can honestly say that I can't ever recall the subject of any recent conversation being CAS and/or how he has performed in post. There are far more parochial matters concerning us such as JPA, petrol prices, etc.

vmv2 - Has it not occurred to you that if the CAS is not a topic of conversation in your crewroom at all then those present don't perceive (and I chose, and hopefully spelt, that word carefully) that he is doing anything worthwhile to better their lot....?? You don't say that CAS is mentioned favourably in your crewroom - rather that he is not mentioned at all!!

The majority of people on this thread who are criticising CAS are doing so on the basis of his apparent (again a carefully chosen word) inaction in terms of speaking out, effecting (productive/useful) change, etc..... The fact that he is not mentioned in your crewroom seems to imply that your co-workers also sense no productive action on his part - they just aren't as upset about it as some posting here, maybe it is just what they have come to expect from senior officers over the years....??

vmv2

When did you last speak to him face to face? probably back in 2002-3
Have you ever asked him directly to do anything for you? No, he has always been a fast jet man, I've always been on Multi
If so, what response did you get? n/a
When was the last time you sat in on a meeting between CAS and any member of the government so that you can say with some conviction that he just rolls over and does the politicos bidding? I've never sat in on such meeting, but I'm afraid that you have misse the point. My argument is that Torpey is NOT and is NEVER seen as a person who stands up for the thousands of men and women under his command. I have yet to hear him say a single word against the dreadful cuts that affect the service so much. And as I've said before, his handling of the Nimrod loss has been so poor, that he is an embarrasment, I suspect, to a great many in the service.
How many of you have been awarded the DSO? I DO NOT have a DSO, but so I will decline from commenting any further about the award. If you knew anything whatsoever about awards, then you would know what I mean.

The problem is that Glenn Torpey is NOT a good CAS. He IS a nice chap, infact a charming chap, but NOT a good CAS, and thats why people are giving him a roasting. You must know how bad it is in the service at the moment, and yet whilst the RN and Army chiefs are quite happy to say in public that the cuts are too much, our (or your) glorious leader sits fat, dumb and happy, saying nothing! Sad, but thats the fact.

Cazatou
I have refrainewd from putting it in big letters, but are you going to reply to my commenst or are you going to go 'deep and silent'??

Winco,

I think Cazatou was hoping to divide and conquer, either to act as devils advocate or just to p:mad:ss everyone off, I don't know.

The fact that several serving people have supported your post seems to have cut off his oxygen somewhat.


MGD