More Tristar problems?
 

British commanders call for more troops to stave off Taliban victory - Times Online

Troops flying home from Iraq and Afghanistan face delays after it emerged that two of the RAF’s three Tristar C2 transport aircraft have to be taken out of service so that cracks in their wing flaps can be repaired. The Ministry of Defence insisted it can maintain an “air bridge” by civilian charter.

A Tri-Strar is u/s in Akrotiri at the moment. Set of steps driven into wing. Long wait for possible new aileron.

Well I wonder where this thread will go next.


Movers.........Incoming

Another one here
 

In work until 2009.

Marshall Aerospace

Well, presuming a mover is responsible for the placement/movement of steps, one could presume that some 'incoming' may be appropriate. :ouch:

Well of course.

When movers make a mistake it is very visible to all.

When other people (normally those whiter than white) make a mistake they can cover it up. :mad:

Not really.

If there's any doubt when I taxi my aircraft, I get wing walkers out to give me a thumbs up for good clearance. Same should apply here. There's simply no excuse for driving things into a parked aircraft.

And of course you never make a mistake in the cockpit.....do you:ugh:

And by the way:

Of course plenty of people available for wing walkers, no pressure, no sudden retern of aircraft early, etc, etc.

Give them a break, as I said every body makes more mistakes.... theirs are just more visible than others. Therefore they get slaged off (normaly by people like you) more quickly.

You started it.:ugh:

In my 5000+ hours on the VC10, no-one ever drove anything into the aeroplane.

Yet over the last few years, there seem to have been some inexcusable ground incidents. It's not as though the TriStar is an infrequent visitor to Akrotiri, so is there a systemic problem - or was this a 'one-off'?

When RAF AT is at such a premium, such incidents are particularly unacceptable.

Whoever causes them.

No, never :E

I'm not saying I don't, I'm saying that there is no excuse for driving things into aircraft. Stop the vehicle, get some assistance and carry on. End of.

So when is there an excuse for making a mistake?

Obviously you have an excuse when you make a mistake.
Obviously (in your eyes) there is no excuse for others making a mistake DOING THEIR JOB.

Grow up and wise up.

Sounds like incidences are on the increase. Is it workload?

Unfortunate as this incident is, and frustrating, this could be the first signs of overworked people making mistakes.

Easy to blame the movers (who may well have just screwed up). But it could be the tip of the iceberg we all know is drifting our way as the entire military becomes more fatigued jumping through hoops, chasing pointless stats and supporting wars in two theatres.

Just a thought before the executions commence.

You're quite right - that's what I meant by a systemic problem!

Tired people make mistakes. Worse still, they're usually the worst placed to realise that they're starting to make mistakes....

So, rather than throw mire at specific branches or trades, people should perhaps think first about cumulative fatigue and whether overstretch was a key ingredient.

Is it time to out our hands in the air and say ' we can't do this any more - who would like bid for the contract to charter us to Akrotiri and we'll get everyone in by Herc or something else from there?'

Discuss

SRENNAPS, no,mistakes from certain trades are never covered up, whilst I was at RAF Valley an aircrat (a beagle I think ) was filled with the wrong fuel, the engines cut out and it crashed shortly after take off. The three people resposible, bowser driver, refueller, and line supervisor, went to jail.
As ground crew, you can be held responsible for your work for up to 5 years...

SRENNAPS

Cock!

Of course the Herc fleet has loads of spare capacity to do this. Or the something else is what exactly?

MGDP

"Is it workload?"..........................in Akrotiri :eek:

ahh what they should do is cover the frame with a dayglow jacket as it comes off the runway then it will be noticable and nobody will drive in to it

SOP should the steps not be lowered before they are brought up to the aircraft?, then raised as they approach the door, this certainly does not happen

So the VC 10 that went to Newcastle many many moons ago and had a bog truck go through the back end does not count then? OR the VC10 that went up to replace it (after the first flew back to roost at Brize below 10,000 ft and unpressurised) which was also attacked by the same person in the same place with another bog truck, I take it they do not count then?........ :ok:

Or the one after a certain crewman decided to push some steps under the fuselage so he could get in the freight bay whilst refuelling went on and I had to offload 35,000 lb of fuel to get them back out? does that not count either?:mad:

Or the tow bar that went throught the nose of a VIP?

Should I go on?

Sorry, I should have said that during 'my' 5000+, no-one drove anything into 'my' aeroplane - but I thought that was sufficiently implicit.

If SOPs are not being followed, supervisors' heads might well roll.....

Arthur R,

Sorry, but you are wrong re the Bassett crash at Valley. Nobody was imprisoned as a result. The S.A.C liney who refuelled the aircraft engaged a civil barrister for his defence at the CM. He was acquitted as I recall as the barrister exposed what we now call systemic failure...on a large scale. I was there at the time and remember the incident well.

Krystal n chips, I was there at the same time, but over the years the memory fades, perhaps it was the talk at the time that they could go to prison. If I remember rightly wasn't the co on the aircraft?

Thread drift fellas:ugh:

More importantly if these 2 Tristars are grounded for any lenght of time how are we going to maintain the airbridge?

What about the Telic/Herrick RIPs and the scheduled sorties?

Not a hope of the C130 fleet being able to assist - it's broken:{

Civil charter won't get you into theatre - British personnel on non-DAS equipped aircraft - no-one in their right mind would sign that off:mad:

Can't wait for next week's trip to the sandpit (again)

With the Trial Installation of the TriStar cockpit upgrade not due out of the hangar until 2009 and with FSTA due to enter service from 2011, how long will the expensively modified TriStars actually remain in service?

I do hope that it'll prove to be £22M well spent.........

Is the simulator also being modified?

skaterboi:


Funny...reminds me of the time I watched a RAF C17 being 'wing-walked' into the tail of an EA6 at El Centro a few years back...sure the loadie had signalled the handling pilot to stop, but the oh so gentle application of brakes was too...oh so gentle!

:ok:

Which reminds me of the time where the opsies told the movers that a set of steps were a little close to the taxiway at a certain Afghan international airport. Suitable ignored, an Antonov then knocked the steps back into line. Chap had to stay back a couple of days to carry out a unit inquiry.

That may have been the same time that the movers didn't think it necessary to clear all their crap from a dispersal because helicopters were only ground taxying and therefore there was no downdraft.

So, Timmy was parked on the pan. Guilty person responsible moved said steps into stationary aircraft.

Q1. How many people were on the team moving the steps?

Q2. What speed were said steps travelling at?

Q3. Where the F£&K was the supervision?

At a time when all forces are beyond overstretch who decided that this was an ok corner to cut? What next, self signing, self supervising, non independant inspection ejection seat work?? Where I work there are certain tasks that need a certain number of people, not enough people then task not done.

There is never enough time or man power to do it right first time but we always manage to find the time and manpower to f$"king fix it. And yes, I have made a mistake or two. It's at that time the old integrity principal comes out to play. I.E. stop and report it truthfully, man up and take your punishment like a liney.

BEags

£22m on the WHOLE fleet?

Bargain compared to the cost of a SINGLE VC10 major.

At least there'll be a return as the 3* will still be here in 2014+. 2011? Don't belive the MoD glossies!

I wouldn't disagree with that - I just hope that the idiot beancounters don't decide to scrap the TriStars before, ooh, about 2020??

SRENNAPS,

Whilst I think it's laudible of you to defend our Movements Colleagues out here, I have to say that they are in fact culpable. To put it another way, they biffed up. A silly avoidable mistake. Made more annoying by the fact that despite all that has been achieved in support of the Airbridge, all anyone will remember now is that Akrotiri bent a Tristar. Can't say anymore as I may attract unwanted attention. :ugh:

HAHA Muppets again...I can remember many incidents of movers ground attack on a T* strange thing was nothing ever happened to them...

As a TriStar frequent flyer I am normally the first one to criticise the Movements Empire, however, on this occasion I must support them. AKT movements have increased by 50% but unfortunately the movements team there still have the same number of personnel, a number which is woefully too few for the increase in tasking. Fatigue manifests itself in various ways; a TriStar being bent is just one way. Let us stop pointing the finger at any one individual or section. Let us start learning from our mistakes so that next time we can avoid this from happening again. Let us all remember that the people that ultimately lose out are the people in theatre. But most importantly, the airbridge may be creaking but because of the hard work of a lot of people at BZN and AKT (including the the other chaps across the road) the airbridge is still open.

see above post....they have hit aircraft enough times to learn not to do it.

If a techie drives anywhere near an aircraft he needs a marshaler, even if he is driving the slow Grove to clean the windscreens.

Eng wing orders dictate a marshaller is required for all movements around an aircraft.

There is no excuse..and fatigue is not a valid excuse..

I agree. It is easy to get complacent working around aircraft and I have seen a number of 'specialists' persistently over-assess their own abilities.

Disagree completely, it totally depends on the strength of your will to stand up and say you are too tired to do something. One's willingness to do that depends on lots of things; quality of management/leadership above you, importance of the task, awareness of tiredness.

I remember standing alone on a pan with the sun coming up taking in the fact that one of my techies had just written off a refuelling rig and seriously damaged a civvie airliner. Circumstances (op tempo, manning levels, working hours and importance of task) were such that it was dealt with, he never heard a thing about it and neither should he.

We don't know the circumstances so let the subsequent investigation decide if there is culpability.

Bravo!!
 

Disagree completely, it totally depends on the strength of your will to stand up and say you are too tired to do something. One's willingness to do that depends on lots of things; quality of management/leadership above you, importance of the task, awareness of tiredness.

I remember standing alone on a pan with the sun coming up taking in the fact that one of my techies had just written off a refuelling rig and seriously damaged a civvie airliner. Circumstances (op tempo, manning levels, working hours and importance of task) were such that it was dealt with, he never heard a thing about it and neither should he.

We don't know the circumstances so let the subsequent investigation decide if there is culpability.

:D:D:D

Heard C-17s are being drafted in as a last resort .. pax will be inbound instead of ammo! work that one out!!!

L1011GE

Don't know what part of BZZ you work at but I've never seen a teccie marshaling any vehicle of theirs near a T* or VC10. And be careful of your reply because I know they have been hit, and not just by movers or ASMT !

Mistakes happen in all walks of life, it's just one of those things. Despite all your bickering I suggest you look at the various pamphlets floating around detailing recent aircraft mishaps. Very few mover related, a lot more teccie related. But you don't see us whinging.

MM