Valley Hawks in Northolt
 

Over the last few months,i have seen an increase in the use of Northolt by Hawks from RAF Valley! Whilst these are a most welcome sight in these parts,could someone,(with the usual caveats),give a reason as to why?
Do fast jet trainees have to "experience" flying within a TMA as part of thier training or are these flights just for navigational training etc?

They are probably Prince Williams Taxi service.

There used to be an annotation in BINA that single engine aircraft were not accepted, (early 90's) when did this change?:confused:

I thought the single engined a/c ban was for everyone except the RAF, as i can remember some years back the French being refused permission to operate a single engined comms a/c into Northolt!. If it,s of any interest we also get occassional visits by Tucanos from Linton?,(LOP callsign),but the Hawks have become more regular visitors.....Now more likely to see one of those than a RAF Herk at Northolt.....How times have changed!!

A good Egg?
 

Should the donk on a Hawk decide to stop when turning short finals and Ms Miggins and her family of 7 in a Council Estate in West Ruislip receive the "good news" through their roof, the entire World Media wont go into a frenzy calling for heads on spikes because........

OC Ops is a "good egg" and besides do the "great unwashed" not realise Northolt is only a 45 min tube ride from a good nitestop...:rolleyes:

Common Sense innit?:ugh:

Should've gone RW, then you could land away at Chelsea Barracks - much closer to Sloane Square :E

A bit tricky now that Chelsea Barracks has close! :ugh:

Indeed, but there's a marked H spot at Regent's Park Barracks :ok:

It's all about Risk Management
 

The BA777 is designed, maintained and operated such that the loss of one critical power unit does not result in the loss of the aircraft (and the subsequent collateral damage on the ground). The Hawk, however is designed, maintained and operated such that the loss of the critical power unit will result in aircraft being lost (with the subsequent collateral damage on the ground). Such is the way for both aircraft for good reason and I do not challenge that.

Indeed, the BA777 can suffer a multiple system failure and fall upon us; we as society choose to wear that risk in return for joy of air travel. Equally, we as a society choose to wear the risk of a military jet falling upon in the interest on National Security.

Rightly or wrongly, London has special rules regarding Single Engined Aircraft and OC Ops has some discretion on that. It's not for him, you or me to challenge those rules; but two questions for you;

1. Does a Hawk coming into Northolt enhance National Security?
2. OC Ops has to weigh up his career/ possibly his personal liberty against the strength of an Adour fan blade.... how strong is that blade?

So "old chap" it comes down to risk and return.... OC Ops seems to be wearing a lot of risk for not a lot of return...

Have to agree with "The Equivocator" here....we are not wall to wall housing,(yet) here in good old west London.....plenty of green open space and parkland available!!
As for single engined aircraft using the skies above us,well i dont mind one bit as there is more chance,(where i live),of a 747/777/A380 coming through your bedroom window in the early hours than a Hawk/Tucano etc,so from a personal point of view,"hats off" to the relevent OC ops involved for organising it all,(even if it's for a jolly!!),and long may it continue!!

Back in the days when the RAF could still afford proper UAS flying, we once did an event for charedeee, mates, not 'alf. This involved bringing the Beaujolias Nouveau back from France, which our students would then rush to a function in town.

The idea was that ULOTC would drive the filthy stuff to Calais, URNU would transfer it to their boat and bring it across to Ramsagte or somewhere, then ULOTC would transfer custody to 3 of our students who we would then fly in formation to Northolt before it was transferred to 'butcher's boy' bikes and delivered to the function.

The OTC did their bit, but the Channel was too rough for the URNU boat, so it came over by ferry. I'd led the 3 of us from Benson to Manston via the usual BNN - LAM - DET - Manston route (Capital's 'Eye in the Sky' saw us and said that it looked 'cool'...:hmm:). Then we tied the plonk behind the seats and flew back via DET and LAM to Northolt. The interesting bit was descending down to 1000 ft QNH after Watford, then leading everyone on rather a weaving route along the green bits east of Denham to remain legal before joining right hand downwind for RW25.

All went fine, the students pedalled off to town and the '92 BeaujULAS' Nouveau' was gratefully received. Then time to crank up and head back to Benson - best bit on that leg was flying over STC watching the ground-pounders trudging along in their blunty blue like something out of a Lawry painting.

3 hours of slightly unusual flying - and an excellent training opportunity. Northolt had agreed to everything and were extremely helpful. So yes, it is indeed possible to take a SE aeroplane into Northolt if there's a good (?) reason and you've planned it all out in advance!

And exactly how many Adours have failed on finals over the last 30 years????

I would have thought that those naughty rotary boys would have been trying to find the G spot :E:E:E

There was that NFTC Hawk crash in April this year. I think it was close to finals, and the immediate suspicion was it was an LP turbine blade. Apparently it's happened a few times on that type.

Para 5 in this link:

Flight training set to return to normal at CFB Moose Jaw

I'm not overly sure that taking out a slice of Hillingdon would be a bad thing.

Tongue somewhat located in cheek.

No, they dont have to experience it. The flights into Northolt are training flights, but the pilot decided on northolt instead of another fine establishment.


The BINA says: Single-engined fixed-wing aircraft are only permitted to land at Northolt under exceptional circumstances and are subject to the restrictions forSVFR flight within the London CTR.

No idea why it says "Exceptional circumstances" but all they have to do is comply with the following, and they can land at EGWU without any fuss....

1. The aircraft will be subject to a SVFR clearence.
2. The aircraft is strictly PPR if it wishes to use Northolt (this is where the OC Ops approval comes in)
3. The cloudbase is not less than 1200ft
4. In flight Vis is at least 10km/LHR Reported Vis of +10km
5. Where the flight is arr/dep Northolt, the max op alt will be 2000ft on the Norholt/London QNH within the confines of the Northolt RMA, and 1000ft London QNH within the rest of the LCTR.
6. Flights are to (where possible) fly IFR. aircraft unable to fly IFR will use the established flight lanes as laid down in AD 2-EGLL-3-1.


No, but at the end of the day it is a military base so why not - it's been here over 93 years, i think the locals are used to it! (even if it it usually looks like an extension to London City with all the civil aircraft)

OC Ops only approves the landing at Northolt - SE Flights in the LCTR do not need his authorisation. They only need to be issued a SVFR clearence by either Special/Thames Radar or Northolt Approach to enter controlled airspace (subject to the conditions listed above)


Personally I'd like to see more aircraft come in to Northolt! MM

LG

What's it got do with Cathy Pacific.

Dont't get me wrong
 

I think it's important the great unwashed see military hardware; the faster, the lower, the better.... however, you have to deal with things the way they are; not how you wish them to be...

Our Lords and Masters have decided they want to limit, ie ban, Single Engine flights over London. Obviously, a blanket ban would remove flypasts, Royal/VIP jollies... err.. I mean flights of National Importance, and hence we have the somewhat vague but nonetheless all incompassing "Exceptional Circumstances" to give some wiggle factor to those who sit slightly below our Lords and Masters. Herein lies the problem, for as Rigger1 points out, when was the last time something went wrong?

Some poor Minion, in this case Northolt OC OPs, grants the "Exceptional Circumstances" and the dice are rolled one too many times and an incident occurs. The Minion would not be finding himself on the carpet with the AOC but in a dungstorm on a scale of the Meneze's shooting multiplied by each fatality. In sum, his defence of... but the boyz wanted a nitestop in Soho/ the Beaujolais was aging/ Northolt's a military airfield will be swept aside in the National desire to see a head on a spike.... being his.

Now I sure Oc Ops will be heartened that Beagle, Chinnooker and Equivacator will support him through his difficult times; however OC Ops may be wiser to read the Chinook thread at the top of Military Forum page to gauge the mountain he will face.

Like I said, lot of risk for not a lot of return....

PS fareastdriver... sorry.. where are you heading with your question?

Quote:

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There was that NFTC Hawk crash in April this year. I think it was close to finals, and the immediate suspicion was it was an LP turbine blade. Apparently it's happened a few times on that type.

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Totally different type of blades and mark of engine - 871 compared to the good old Mk 151. However the new 128 or T2 has the Adour 951 a direct derivative of the 871. So don't let the new Hawks into Northolt.

Rigger1
 

Sorry mate.... I was being a bit subtle when I said fan blade fail.... the point I was making... any minor problem way beyond the control of OC Ops Northolt could see him in severe do-do ... I was also highlightling to Equivacator that something as simple as a fan blade letting go on 777 should not result in the loss of the aircraft; whereas in the Hawk it may well result in the loss of an aircraft..... as I said before.. not a blight on either fine aircraft..