I certainly agree that it is way beyond the control of OC Ops, however i really can't see that single engine ops are a risk, especially when you look at all the hawk movements round Valley etc without major system (engine, fuel, hyd's etc) failure.

If there was any risk Hawk movements would be restricted to only 'out of the way' airfields ----- mmm, like Valley, Mona, Leeming etc (ok, do the powers at be know something we don’t?). And yet the mighty Hawk can fly into virtually anywhere, I don’t know of any Hawk pilot who gets nervous flying from Malta to Cyprus over all that ocean etc, etc.

But you are right, an incident at Northolt would not be good, but to ban single engines seems like a very short sighted and uneducated edict.

Having had the privledge of flying over London many times; it is a magnificent sight. I can wholly understand that every pilot, military, civil, student/first solo? would love to do it. How do you legislate who can and who can't... because sooner of later something will happen; you have to limit it...

I believe the line was drawn at those who one engine cannot and multi-engine can. Equally, a blanket military are OK would cause an uproar amongst the civilian pilots and leave the military at peril should something unfortunate occur (irrespective of how remote you or I consider it to be).

Hence the situation we find ourselves in.

As aside, of my generation of Pilots I can think of 3 who were involved in incidents that resulted in the aircraft being lost whilst in the act of taking-off or landing... 2 Valley and 1 Chiv. Again, no disrepect to the pilots involved or the Hawk.... just a risk of operation......

I am glad to hear that your time with the Hawk has been so incident free.

I wish it had, lost some fine pilots, several of whom were freinds. The only landing accidents i recall are the practice turnbacks at Valley (which i witnessed) and not long before at Chiv. The recent Mona ones well - mishandling etc. As for take off - well the xx164 incident is very close to my heart, so i won't go there. My point is that the Hawk when up and running is a remarkably trouble free jet.

I appreciate that you can't let all and sundry fly low over built up areas with nowhere to set down, but Northholt is military and as such i was suprised to hear that it was limited to military single engined as well as civvy.

As I said above - OC Ops only approves the Landing or departure at/from Northolt. You could quite easily take an SE into Denham, White Waltham, Fairoaks, Brooklands, or even Heathrow (if you could get the landing permission!)

The actual clearence to bring a SE aircraft into the LCTR rests with the Controllers working "Special", "Thames Radar" or "Northolt Approach". As long as the criteria contained within the UK AIP AD-2-EGLL-1-2.22 and AD-2-EGLL-3-1

MM

Monkey Madness
 

Freely admit civil GA flying is not my specialist subject....

Are you saying I could take a SE aircraft across London so long as I meet SVFR requirements?

Remember that you must comply with Rule 5!

Even if absolved from the '1000 ft' aspect by an ATC requirement, you must always observe the 'glide clear' requirement. 'Green areas' in the middle of London (e.g. Hyde Park) don't count!

Met someone who once had an engine failure in a SE aeroplane over London - at night! But it was when airways didn't exist above 11000 ft and he managed to get his Attacker clear of London and relit the engine before scraping into Ford or somewhere.

The 'locals' will probably be up in arms on Monday morning then (11th), as one of those 'nasty, noisy, black Hawk' things has landed this afternoon.

St Athan
 

We used to see a lot of Hawks down at RAF (now MoD) St Athan after going to the range for refuel and re-arm before going back to Valley via the range. They have now closed this detachment and also St Athan's runway (for re-surfacing).

Maybe this has a little to do with it?

Would you like a PM on its departure time?

Hawks over Buck House
 

Interesting thread: so tell me why Hawks painted RED can fly wherever they chose, up the Mall, over HRH's head and house?Perhaps the Reds have twin engined Hawks.

LG, OC Ops is dealing with things the way they are. Unlike your risk averse mentality which constrains thought processes. Sadly, you are not alone; many in the RAF are similarly afflicted by your 'Ooh, what would the papers say?' attitude, which is normally the first rebuff given to a plan which has any element of risk attached to it.

Bottom line? It's his decision as to whether the risks are worth the rewards, and evidently he has made his call. I agree with him, you do not.

Who would I want to work for/with, or go to war under/with? Simple.

The only restraint on SE (inc Hawks) arriving at NHT is that they can comply with relevant VFR and Rule 5. It is not OC Ops who accepts the risk; it is the pilot's responsibility to observe the rules! The original entry into the BINA was requested by a (very) previous OC Ops/Stn Cdr going the "extra mile" for safety's sake, not because he had to make the entry, and it's been there ever since!

Magp1e, nice try but since when was a military aircraft subject to Rule 5?

This will give away who I am.... but.....

I will instruct AIDU & the CAA to remove the line from the BINA/Mil AIP/Civ AIP when I get back into work (being as I am responsible for Northolt's entry into AIDU and CAA documents - hence I have to know what the rules are)

Like Magp1e and I have said... it is NOT OC Ops decision to permit SE into the LCTR, only to permit the landing/departure at/from Northolt. If you want to be picky the only military people that take the responsibility are the driver and the squadron Auth.

MM

On the subject of daft BINA entries, does the one for Leeming still have the ridiculous "Inbound aircraft are to notify Stn Ops if an officer of Group Captain rank is on board" requirement in the RMKS section?

The 'Power Crazed Loonie' had it inserted in 1974-ish and it was still there around 25 years later......:\

That may have been me.

A day trip up to Otterburn to lift some guns to shoot and then back to Odiham. Picked up an AVM from Strike Command who wanted to see how we operated.

When we arrived at Leeming they had this stupid arrangent where jet aircraft were only allowed on one line and piston on the other. The WRAF controller thought that all helicopters had piston engines so she directed us to the Avgas line. We shut down and there then followed a long argument with some Flt Lt Groundacrat because he refused to let an Avtur bowser on the Avgas line.The AVM didn't have any combat clothing so I had lent him my jacket and he was watching the proceedings. It then got to the stage where this Flt Lt was insisting that we PUSH the aircraft to the Avtur line.

The AVM then took my jacket off.

Now there is a face I would have loved to have seen......:eek:

PMSL, off the topic if the thread but great story n one the less, always like stories like that. I'll have a look in my BINA tomorrow see if that entry is still there.

>I'll have a look in my BINA tomorrow see if that entry is still there.<

It is. Page 98 of the current version, No 12 in the RMKS section for Leeming states that "Operating authorities are to notify movements carrying pax of Gp Capt rank or above".

Being a writer and editor by trade, I've often thought that the BINA could do with rather more rigorous copy-editing than it seems to receive. And all that stuff in the ERS about fuelling contracts is at least a year out of date as well as being semi-literate at best.