That may be, but 92cm equates to a very small person.

Flight Screening Program and aircraft type
 

Great forum.
I have several questions I hope someone can answer for me please:

1. The ADF site says the program is divided into both basic and advanced courses for flight screening. Do you do one or the other and how is this calculated?

2. I am interested to find out the type of aircraft used for the flight screening at Tamworth? Do they use the CT-4, or the CAP-10 or both? Do they use one for the basic and one for the advanced course etc?

Any responses will be greatly appreciated.
Cheers

Hope these answers help ya mate

1. Basically you'll be assigned a course depending on how many civilian flying hours you have. Last time I checked the split was at around the 40 hour mark (May have changed). The main differences in the two are mainly focused around the aerobatics component of the course. People with fewer hours are hardly expected to be able to perform "advanced" aerobatic sequences compared to someone who is already able to demonstrate a healthy knowledge of General Flying. With that said there are other minor differences in the rate of progress for the advanced course.

2. You will fly both CAP-10 and CT-4. The first component of the course is centered around general flying, starting from the basic straight and level flying, moving all the way into circuits. This is achieved on the CT-4. The second part of the course is focused around aerobatic flying. The aim is being able to demonstrate hand/foot/eye co-ordination. Obviously flawless aerobatics aren't the main aim of the course, but a rate of learning that meets the ADF's requirements for training.

Hope it helps you out and all the best.

Edited: Me fail english? Thats unpossible

Hey all,

I've read through the thread and can't seem to find the answer to this one...

Going by the schedule, it seems there are two flight screenings happening at certain times....is this correct?

Just wondering because I would have thought PSA would have at least a days break from applicants to prepare for the next group...I guess not though.

I must be bored because i'm still awake and posting on this forum

The_Hat_Guy:

PSA run 2 week flight screening courses at staggered intervals. Meaning they'll start one course and a week later start another one. They've got pretty good support staff there doing the day to day admin side of things whilst the QFI's focus on the pilot training. They have enough staff to run two courses concurrently and all the paper work is done back of house.

Ultimately its not that a big of a process. A QFI will score you on your flight according to how well you went (The score is usually a measurement based on an accepted base level. If you score well then you're meeting the average) and then at the end of the fortnight sit down with the OSB and discuss your results in a round table discussion.

With the amount of QFI's and support staff they have working for every course the process is not that difficult or long.

Having said that, they do take time off with courses to catch up on paper work/individual currencies.

Thanks Spacemantan for your answers I really appreciate it.

So just to clarify the last part. Even if your in the advanced course (due to having civilian hours, which I do) you will still do the first part in a ct-4 and then do the second part in a cap 10 and do more advanced aerobatics for that second section?

thanks again

Ultimately yes. The main difference from memory is that the advanced course will do less time in the CT-4 doing basic GF compared to the basic course. Both courses will do aerobatics but the advanced course will learn a few extra ones mainly because they are already profficient with the basic parts of GF

Thanks again Spacemantan

Thanks space, thought so just thought I would check. I would imagine flying everyday with a bunch of rookies would get a bit tedious :}

Aptitude testing
 

Hoping someone can answer my questions regarding aptitude testing at the YOU day.

I know some aptitude tests (ones I have found online) include reading data from tables and graphs but the "guide to aptitude testing for joining the ADF" sample questions dont show any of this style. Can some one please tell me if they test this graph and table stuff or not please?

Also, the "guide" says that there are additonal tests to general ability and mathematical ability for pilots-"testing for pilot","testing for officer entry". Are these tests the personallity type or is it more aptitude or just the wombat style (keep ball in square hand eye stuff) tests?

Thanks again and keep up this great thread (hope one day I will be the one answering the questions...hehe)

Hey Jo

YOU session is pretty basic. If you can do alright at school you should be fine. It's like an IQ test eg. They give you a word, you pick A,B,C or D depending on which one is similar or the opposite etc. Basic maths like X buys 6 lollies at 25c each, gives Y amount, how much change. The hardest maths on there wasn't too taxing (think it was pythagoras theorem), they're not trying to see if you can only get the hard ones right, so just plug away at them all, skip and come back to any if you need to. The guide they give you is pretty spot on, and I didn't have any table/graph questions from memory.

Cheers oneflewnorth, I am greatful for your help. Well in that case I wont stress too hard but just keep nutting away at practice questions of the styles discussed by your self (and the info given by adf).

Thanks again.

G'day cj0203, any idea of other offer dates or if this a regular time? Just trying to get an idea of how many intakes there are a year.
Thanks mate.

I have it on good authority that the selection dates are a tad later than specified above. No idea how many per year, but I'm interested to know. I thought there would probably be two per year for RAAF DEO and one for ADFA.

Lets say an average course number of about 24 at BFTS with a new RAAF/RAN Alpha course every 12 weeks... Thats 4 courses a year which means about 96 people, plus whatever number of RAAF/RAN ended up with the primarily army Bravo courses. So lets go with something like 120 people? I'm gonna go with about half ADFA half DEO (I can't back those numbers up so don't get upset if i'm wrong). That gets reduced to 49 - 65 a year at the end of the sausage factory through various reasons... Mostly people failing.

The RAAF will always intake the same amount of people and if the requirement for people is less than usual they'll just scrub more to only get the cream of the crop but the bare minimum is 49. For DEO they'll usually intake in October, April with a smattering of people in between. Its not odd to have OTS courses with 20+ pilot candidates on it, nor is it odd to have courses with only 1 or 2.

Problem at the moment is demand is quite small within the ADF. There isn't the healthy speparation that used to happen so unfortunately there are too many O3 O4's clogging up the shute.

Hope thats some usefull information for ya. Fresh from Defence Recruiting and OTS/BFTS/2FTS

Edited: IOT add extra info and fix the numbers

Numbers at BFTS now are exactly the same they have been for the past few years... But the requirement for pilots has decreased... It would seem that my above statement is correct but I could be wrong.

In 2007, a BFTS course made it through with zero scrubbings and the average pass out rate was rather low. Recently BFTS courses have been decimated to the extent where in some cases fewer than half the original course make it to 2FTS. Which once again adds creedence to my previous statement. And once again I could be wrong, could be that the standard of people going through BFTS has declined.

Could be very many different factors involved.

But the intake has been rather steady for a while now, yet the output has dropped because the services don't need as many pilots.

DFR don't adjust their requirements either. Medical standards, Aptitude testing and interviews have always remained the way they are. It is the respective Directorate of Personnel and PSA's responsibility to decide how many people go on to commence pilot training. DFR just provide the meat at the beginning of the chain and the above agencies are responsible for quality control (Continuing with the sausage factory metaphore)

WRT Sandunes post: Absolutely 100% correct. Times have changed from those days but that doesn't mean the services can't change their standards in order to adjust the output. Happens all the time depending on demand.

Fair enough question, and i'll be honest... my knowledge on the inner workings of DFR is not total. As to why they have changed the minimum requirements.. I cannot answer that. It may be because, as you've stated, they're trying to lower input from their end. But from my knowledge of DFR, the medical/fitness/aptitude requirements are determined by the relevant Personnel agencies of the ADF. Ultimately means DFR have no say... They just provide the means for testing/recruiting.

I suppose it is a little nitpicky of me to point that out. :ugh:

From my experience though, There are just as many pilot candidates going through the system as there ever have been, but the output has been lowered somewhat.

Please don't mistake my posts as an attack on you or your knowledge.... I will readily admit that I don't have all the answers or knowledge on how DFR/PSA/ADF work things out. All I do know is that it is a big issue within the ADF pilot community... And my knowledge stems from that... I'm just trying to help :)

My experience with DFR was a long time ago, when they had JOES days and the like... It was incredibly painful.

The new DFR process is alot less painful but none the less is definately not perfect. I agree wholeheartedly that representation from the pilot community is very lacking at DFR and that none truths are definately the norm. Unfortunately the NCO/SNCO's represent the more popular jobs in the ADF (Infantry, Clerks, Logistical persons etc etc). There are a few dedicated staff out there who genuinly enjoy their position and will do anything for applicants. Unfortunately posting cycles means it can be very random at times... Maybe the ADF should introduce recruiter as a permanent position?

Don't get me started on Case Managers...

The problem at the moment is the civilian/defence relationship I think. The military generally speaking have a general knowledge about the ADF, but don't want to be case managers... Case managers don't want/need to know the general knowledge about the ADF, all they care about is processing paper work. Its a bit of a problem.

The ADF want to fix this problem but contractually speaking they're hands are tied.

Personally... I wish you all the best in your application and the best advice I can give you is to constantly annoy your case manager by following up your application. The squeaky wheel gets the grease... I hope this post prompts a flood of phone calls to Case managers :E

Just to put a stop to something here.
Once your at BFTS/2FTS, you will pass/fail on the standard required.
How many pilots the Raaf requires has nothing to do with you passing/failing once your in the system.
It might just mean you have to wait longer for a conversion off course, but by then who cares!
You make the grade, you pass the course, The grading doesn't change

ozbiggles
Pilot intake for the ADF was increased mid last decade to get ready for the new aircraft that were supposed to be delivered. The "required" output was also changed to reflect this. However, recently the output has been decreased but intake the same.

Are you saying that the quality of pilot coming through BFTS and 2FTS has decreased? If so do you think its a reflection of the reduction in hours students get during training?

This is in no way an attack on you, I've been hearing quite differently from you for a while now and want to know your honest opinion.

P.S.

Just bought Biggles' Big Adventures so i'm a fan of your nickname :ok:

spacmantan,

goota agree with ozbiggles. Once your in if you met the grade you pass. As I said some time ago the numbers coming into recruiting are down to what they were 3-5-10 years ago. Simply, the more fish you net the choosier you can be with what you pick out. If you only net a small amount you have got to take what you have caught.

What reduction in hours? The change at BFTS has increased the hours at 2FTS. Or do you mean because of the change at BFTS (see 1FTS hours) that trainees are having a more difficult time at 2FTS

G'day Spaceman
Not a go at you at all. Just wanted to make sure people understand once your in, the pass/mark doesn't change based on how many pilots the Raaf needs. As finestkind says, any changes in output required would be dealt at the input stage ie at selection.
If there is not to much demand at the other end it just means you will wait longer for a conversion and there may not be many choices for the instructors to send you to.
I have never said anything different. There are a number of user names similar to mine which may be the cause of some confusion.
As for a reduction in quality, I'd have to say no. The 'assessment system' at 2fts is very accurate, as close as you get to 100%.(note, not perfect but very good)
Helmet and flak vest on But I would say no one who has been scrubbed didn't deserve it as long as their instructor was doing their job. Many have gone on from it to be outstanding pilots elsewhere and many now check ex mil guys into their RPT futures. A lesson for young guys, never dish another pilot. One day he will probably be checking you!

But undeniably the "grade" so to speak has changed over recent years due to the decline in hours. Surely students aren't expected to meet the same standard as those who completed their training with greater hours? I'm pretty sure it used to be upward of 100hrs at BFTS where as now its down to 65... Can't remember the figures for 2FTS, last I heard there was going to be a small increase in hours for an extra component.. but overall there has been a reduction in hours.

One of the reasons for the reduction in hours, apart from cost cutting, was to get more people through in order to fill the expected vacancies in the upcoming acquisitions. Unfortunately Wedgetail was late, and the KC-30 is still a bit away... Super Hornet just arrived and JSF keeps getting pushed back. So there are now a large number of post wings pilots who are in virtual limbo because of the wait between 2FTS and conversions. Last time I spoke to someone in this boat it was a 18 month wait.

Sure a fix on the supply end will fix the problem... but that will take a year or two to trickle down towards the end. The quicker fix that i've heard is for the training units to be a little bit more fussy... so to speak.

Thats what i've heard, so thats what i've been saying.

I don't necessarily agree with the way things are happening but I don't make the decisions....

Still disagree spaceman.

Why has the grade changed. The BFTS syllabus has reverted(effectively) to the old 1FTS one whilst the 2FTS syllabus has (effectively) returned to the previous one. Little reduction in overall hours.

As far as meeting the same standards, well we have a slightly different type of aircraft to fly compared to 30 years ago. I agree that the ADF needs to look at its training system as not much has changed in, ohhh, how long ( apart from lets go to straight through training back to two types, what 3- 4 times) 40 plus years. Is the way we fight the same as how we did in Korea?
But I digress, I would suggest that standard is as high as ever as can be seen by the bleating from the knucklehead world that they are not getting the numbers they want. Hark back to my "less coming in smaller net analogy"

Can't say i'm familiar with the old 1FTS syllabus so my knowledge of past requirements and grades is quite limited... therefore i wont comment except to say that that is an interesting point.

What i've heard from those bleating nuckleheads is that the quality is not as good. My impression from discussions i've had with those that care is that the number of students going on to 79 sqn are just the same as they have always been (in recent years anyways), and in fact there has recently been a small backlog of students post 2FTS waiting for Hawk conversion... but the quality has dipped. Hence why not enough are making it through to 76 and thence to 2OCU.

I'm actually thinking of creating a new thread to discuss this, because I don't think talking about the various problems with the training system is going to do alot for people wanting to know more about Flight Screening and PSA in this thread.

Fair enough but how can you comment on the grades if you are unsure of what they once were.

Also lends weight to the agrument about the smaller the catch in the net the less likely you will be able to pick enough potential knuckleheads. However that does not mean the standards have lowered. All it means is that the quality does not have as many shiny jet jockies. All they are doing is sending the same number across and as such less are likely to make it through. However you can even question my statement about the quality by throwing in this. I have no doubt that there are a number of knucklehead candidates that get to 79SQN or further down track and start to realise, gee if only I'd gone C130 etc I would be logging double if not triple the hours Captain of the aircarft and actually operational as opposed to still under training, still under the pump with the possibilty of being scrubbed, well thats a motivator.

Hey Everybody,
This is my first post here and can I just start by saying that this thread is an absolute gold mine. So many valuable contributions for aspiring pilots like myself to absorb.

Anyways, I am in the beginning stages of the recruitment process. I have my Specific Pilot Aptitude Testing day on the 12th of April (1 week away). I am fairly confident with my aptitude skills although I'm not here discuss that.

I'm here in hope that someone with a good understanding of DFR can answer an important question for me that I have been receiving mixed answers on. It is in relation to my Medical History.

A short while ago I received a shoulder injury which required X rays and a sling for 2 weeks. I received Centrelink Benefits for a couple weeks due to not being able to work and I used Medicare for the X rays. X rays reveal a minor irregularity with the shoulder (in terms of the collarbone)

but it is important that I point out that the shoulder has returned to 100% and I have full motion.

Getting to the point, I am worried about mentioning this problem in my Medical History Questionnaire as I believe I will be graded as a CLASS 4 regardless of how much I explain that it is no longer a problem.

I'm just looking for some advice on what I should do at assessment day in relationship to my medical questionnaire. I don't want to lie about anything and am generally a very honest person although I also don't want to be knocked back for a reason I know is unfair. Does anybody know if DFR will check medical history through a government database system or do they rely on the answers you give in the Medical History Questionnaire, and then request records if there seems to be a problem?

I have no problem performing physical tasks such as push ups, or anything for that matter (I swim 5km per week, and work out with weights also with no problems).

A BIG thankyou in advance for anybody that can help me! :D

Hmm yeah that's a tough one. I'm kind of in the same boat. I put something on mine I wish I hadn't because I know it isn't a problem at all however it will hold up my application or even void it. Every time I think about it I wish I didn't put it on the questionnaire just in case. It's up to you mate, as far as I know they don't check databases or anything but if it does become a problem during training and It's found you withheld info you'll be discharged.

Maybe someone can help with mine. I had a varicose vein removed like 3 years ago, does anyone know if thats grounds for Class 4 medical? Please say no haha, stressing big time.

BurningDesire:

The most probable reason you are getting mixed answers from DFR, is that the only staff that are able to give advice on medical issues, are the medical staff themselves. CC's DI's and Case managers aren't legally aloud to give advice so you tend to get hazy ansers from them.

If you can prove through your GP and whatever specialist you may have seen that the arm will not create any issues during your career as an officer and a pilot then there should be no problems. The only thing I can see happening is that the ADF may want to examine the issue a little further through AVMED. This may hold up your application for a little while.

Lying on your medical questionaire is up to you but Oneflewnorth is bang on when he says that you can be discharged for it if you are discovered to have lied. Honesty is the best policy but cover your bases by providing GP's letters and maybe the opinion of a specialist.

Oneflewnorth:

I'm not a Dr but i just wiki'ed Varicose veins... I'm not qualified to say yes or no but as I mentioned above, cover your bases with information for DFR from GP's and specialists.

All the best to both of you! and good luck for the aptitude test BurningDesire

Oneflewnorth - Hey when do you find out from DFR if it will be a problem or not. To me, it doesn't sound like it should be a problem, but I don't know much about Varicose veins. So What stages are you at? Did you just have our assessment day? Are you waiting for an offer to FSP?

Spacemantan - Hey thanks for the advice and well wishes. Yeah I do realise that I would be discharged if they found out later on. I'm sure i can handle the training without it becoming a problem, but maybe there are other ways that they will find out? It's such a hard decision. I'm sure I can get GP and Specialist reports to vouch that my shoulder is ok. So I'm kind of leaning towards nominating it on my Medical but having a pile of specialist reports from many different specialists and GP's stating that it's fine.

So do you guys really think that specialist reports will really help the situation or will they still judge the situation themselves regardless?

English Comprehension
 

Hi all,
I have a quick question I hope someone can help me with. I have read on some posts that there is "english comprehension" in the first and second aptitude tests for pilots at the YOU day. Can anyone tell me if this is just the "Foot is to Leg as Hand is to a, head. b, arm" etc type stuff or do they also involve reading passages and then deducing the most likely statement?

Thanks Jorocketoz

p.s. keep up the great forum

As far as med stuff goes, get advice from the med staff at recruiting. Regardless, as mentioned it is fraudulent to fail to disclose. More to the point if it means you are unsuitable now then there are many ways in which to get stuff fixed and have another go. I know of plenty of guys with niggling injuries that have, at times, seriously affected their performance. How do you come clean with that one in the middle of pilots' course! I know one guy got caught during pilot training recently - and how much do you think that held them up?! Not only did the issue need to be resolved, but there is also an investigation into why it wasn’t disclosed originally...sucks to be him!

Hey Spaceman, why so dark about quality of trainees? You seem to know what you are talking about, so you would also be aware that the syllabus and number of QFIs that a trainee flies with means it has to be some serious conspiracy to get someone through under the required standard!

I really think we'll need to start a new thread to discuss this further. I'm not suggesting there is a conspiracy theory at all... I'm merely an impressionable pilot who's heard rumblings from those in ATW/ACG about quality of graduates.

Many who i've spoken to agree that there are a number of reasons for this which does include the softening of "grades" so to speak.

To a certain degree I believe it. If 2FTS's goal is provide pilots ready and able to complete OPCON, then why are there more people bombing out of conversion... I honestly cannot back any figures up because i'm just not in the know... But thats what i've heard...

Having said that though, I believe the quality of instruction at 2FTS is superb and it could simply be a case of some people falling through the cracks...

[QUOTETo a certain degree I believe it. If 2FTS's goal is provide pilots ready and able to complete OPCON, then why are there more people bombing out of conversion... ][/QUOTE]
Wouldn't be anything to do with the 2 - 6 month delay between finishing BFTS and starting 2FTS, and the (up to) 18 month delay to start an OPCON post wings now wouldn't it?:hmm:

CSD, I'm laughing reading that. It's the old Elephant in the Room that just won't go away.:D

So you guys all think that a couple specialist opinions and a GP report (From a CASA certified GP) will carry some weighting regarding a medical issue thats not too serious?

If you decide to disclose it be armed with anything you can to prevent delays. Specialist reports, physio reports, doc reports, notes from personal trainers/coaches you name it. You could always play down the seriousness of it to the doc at DFR :)

All I wanna do is go flying!!! It's been too long. I've got no God damn money! Donations welcome, I take all major credit cards, BPAY, bank deposit, cash and cheque...or your plane :ok:

30+ and wanting to fly!
 

Hey all,
I have posted a similar question in the past but am really interested if anyone has actually been selected and or passed for BFTS and gone onto pass and become a pilot?

I am now over 30 and am beginning my process to apply as this is always what I have wanted to do.

Any insight is appreciated.
Cheers.

Can be done mate, I was 31 at FSP, 32 at BFTS. That was a few years ago, and I'm RAN, not sure about RAAF, Captain Sand Dune could give you a more accurate, current answer.

You'll never know if you don't have a crack.