Yanks in the Falklands War?
 

Say it aint so.

Generally its an article of faith that the Falklands Conflict was won by Britain and Britain alone, but when I was in Wichita in 1982 a USAF tanker bod told me that some of their aircraft were involved supporting the war effort. Later in Oklahoma City I heard the same story again from another tanker crewman.

Given the prodigious use of tankers to support Black Buck flights the need for a bit of help doesn't seem too unlikely, and given that booms can carry a drogue add on.

However non of the books on the conflict that I've seen mention non-RAF tankers.

There were no non-RAF tankers on Ascension throughout the duration, just Victors.

I believe they supplied some "Int", was on a programme all about the argies trying to procure more exocets from the frogs during the conflict.
Was a good proggie too.

They helped in that extra KC-135s were deployed to the UK to take over the NATO IFR commitments from the Victor force.

Supplied AIM 9Ls.

And F5s to simulate Exocets. Apparently, we asked if we could "borrow" the AIM 9Ls. CC 8th AF asked if that meant he'd get them back. Answer was a "no." :)

A few Shrike missiles were obtained for the Vulcans.

blimey
 

I'm not sure the US of A directly supplied AIM 9-Ls, as in shipping them to the Task Force, so to speak. AFAIR and I'm definitely open to correction, we ( UK F-4 force) had just begun receiving the Limas to replace our 9G's when the War started. Once the decision was made to send the Task Force our nice shiney 9L's were whipped out of the bomb dumps pretty darn smartly and sent down South. Again AFAIR we were left either with our old 9-Gs for a while or a reduced number of 9-Ls', I can't remember exactly. I know that atleast one of the F-4 QWI's of the era drops in here from time to time - he'll probably put me straight.

All really a question of semantics I know but probably v v important from the political side of things.

We did have assistance from the American's when we had some entertaining RHAG Cable problems at Stanley post the War ( RHAG 1, F-4 nil), but again the American prescence was kept fairly low key.

Perhaps they helped support US flights to Ascension? There were quite a few USN tankers (of the sea going variety) diverted to Ascension plus I expect other delivers could have been made by air.

AIM 9Ls
 

I'm sure Sharkey Ward mentions that the crates had Bitburg AFB hastily crossed out when they arrived on board.

I don't reckon an large aircraft (Victor or Vulcan) could successfuly use the Boom Drogue Adapter (BDA) fitted to the KC135 to allow a probe equipped aircraft to refuel from it. The process is hard enough for a more manoeuvreable fighter.

There are still rumours about Americans being shot or captured who were fighting with the Argentines:ouch:

Never conclusively proven, and there's a strong suspicion that the American accents were nothing more than Argentine troops with a good standard of English who'd spent some time in the US or who'd been taught the language by someone with an American accent.

As far as US cooperation at Ascension goes, there was a piece by AVM Ron Dick somwhere about his experience of how willing the Americans were to provide support - we're talking massive shipments of fuel and a refusal on their part to say 'Don't think we can' preferring to say 'Interesting challenge' shortly followed by delivery - I'll try and find it.

Edit: Page 73 onwards of this pdf file

I seem to remember a very good series on TV some years afterwards that mentioned a mid-Atlantic rendezvous during the first mad dash south, when the USN cross-decked anything asked for on the understanding that Pentagon approval would probably follow!

There is a story that the US offered the RN a Carrier with out crew, or air wing. Of course we could not take them up on the offer. Officialy all personnel were UK citizens. Though of course there were some chaps from Hong Kong down there. Canberra had to pay off her usual crew and sail for the only time in her history with a crew comprising of UK citizens. (They came under the NDA once hostilities comenced.) Subsequently I did meet an Aussie para officer who had neglegently not returned home and had "stoped one in the leg" (sic) for his pains.

Dan W
 

Agreed...refueling of the short hose drogue on the KC-135 could be tricky..indeed I know someone :O who dented the intake ramp of an F-4 when they got the kink in the the short hosed drogue of the KC-135 wrong. The hose whipped round and clobbered the fixed, forward portion of the intake ramp...gave the back seater a shock, I understand he said :mad::mad:

As for doing it with a Vulcan or a Victor:ooh:.....

DD - carrier story is perfectly true. Confirmed by John Nott and Admiral Leach at an seminar (unclas and transcript in public domain) at the Staff College in 2002.

I think there were a couple of Canadians down there too - but in RN uniform. I went through BRNC with one - he had UK grandparents so qualified as a Brit IIRC.

NATO weapons stocks
 

I do seem to recall reports at the time indicating that a lot of weaponry was drawn from stocks 'declared to NATO'. Agreement of allies was needed before they could be used elsewhere....... Apparently.

Also, didn't the chaps from across the channel come over with their Mirages and help the harriers get acquainted.... Over the welsh ranges if I remember correctly.

To those of you who took part, thanks for making me proud to be British.

From a VC10. That's as close as we got!


http://i210.photobucket.com/albums/b...chippy/bda.jpg





IIRC, in the late eighties or early ninties, some guy in the Paras mentioned in a written account that his unit had captured some American Mercenaries fighting with the Argentinean forces on Mt Longden. He said that they were taken away by some of his colleagues and shot. Special Branch subsequently investigated this claim but found no evidence to support it.

I think i read somewhere..possibly Vulcan 607?! that the U.S. provided a Tanker moored off of Ascension , to provide enough fuel for the Black Missions. Without it the Bombing of Stanley would never have taken place

microlight A8VR
 

Using "Stocks declared to NATO"... Yep, That's pretty much my understanding of how we in the UK "lost" our 9-Ls for a while.....

Like it or not Ladies and Gentlemen, there is no doubt that the UK had "tacit" assistance from the U.S. during the Falklands War.
This may not have come as direct military logistical help, but given the tight political relationship between Thatcher and Regan at the time, intelligence and political pressure would have been made available at every opportunity.
Go back to the time of the conflict and examine how many countries publicly supported Argentina, there were very few (aside from the cowardly communists and cowardly Frogs, who, at that time, were quite happy to supply the Argies with missiles and ammo':hmm:).

I don't support everything they do, but there are very few conflicts which our cousins across the pond don't help us out with.

Just like they are supporting us in the Stan and Iraq on our GWOT

niknak - John Nott described the French as 'our greatest allies' during the conflict. He clarified this, saying that he should've included the word 'European' before 'allies', but they were in fact terribly helpful.

A nunber of nations who were tempted to provide more Exocet to the Argentines were informed that they would find it impossible to buy spares for their Mirage IIIs and Vs or to have those platforms upgraded at any point in future if they helped out, and proposed transfers of the weapons suddenly ran into unforseen problems. Allegedly...

The only French 'bad guys' in the proceedings appear to have been Aerospatiale, or parts thereof, who are alleged to have forgotten about a small team of technicians helping with Exocet (Mitterand found out and was spectacularly displeased, and the technicians were suddenly remembered and brought home) according to one version of the story - the other is that they were withdrawn as soon as the order to cease helping was given. Also, they were supposedly rather less than helpful in providing the operating parameters of Roland, which might have been useful on occasion.

French Air Force provided DACT with Mirages and provided other useful info. If we're looking for European allies to criticise, the Italians and the Spanish are convenient whipping boys to begin with!

Didn't a scratch crew of incredibly photogenic USN sailors of suitably mixed ethnicity and genders take over a Brit submarine in mid Atlantic after every (Brit) member of its crew went down with really bad food poisoning, and then sink the Belgrano with a blind shot of their last remaining Tigerfish after manfully withstanding hours and hours of depthcharging from half the Argentinian surface fleet?

No? Just wait a few years, and see that that's how Hollywood will tell it.

...and didn't the French Navy provide some Super Etandard affil sorties out of Landivisiau (sp ?) as the fleet passed?

Didn't the Spanish stop an Argentinian SF team on it's way to attack Gib?

Hmm - just found this...

http://www.panorama.gi/archive/000710/updates.htm

The Hollywood version
 

7x7

Absolutely brilliant :D

This thread bought back memories.
Being a waddo local I kept an eye on what the Vulcans were doing.
Back in the day when they were trialing the Vulcans for carrying the HARM / AIM 9 missiles, I remember seeing 52 FW F4G (one maybe two) sat on the ramp at Waddo and operating with the vulcans for 2 weeks prior to the black buck missions. I have dates when I noted them at RAF Waddington if anybody is interested.
So I assume the HARMS came from Spang and the Weasle F4G`s were training the "Black bucks" crew in launch profiles and tactics.
Also involved was the RAE / DERA whistling tit Argosy (XN819 ??) that was detatched at Waddo over the time period.
I`ve never seen it mentioned anywhere about the 81FS/ 52 FW F4G`s being involved in training or anything.
Strange days indeed up at Waddo when the Tin triangles were flying weekends and bizarre times at night
(checks for black omega`s arriving outside):cool:

kev

Destroyer/special forces story sounds a bit 'bloke down the pub told me'... given the difficulties of crossing the Spanish/Gib border in 1982 for everyday folk, I can't help but admire the optimism of trying to cross from Spain in a hire car, a limpet mine stuffed inconspicuously in their undies, of 4 people trying not to look latin. WW2 Buster Crabbe/Italian manned torpedo stuff would seem more likely.

US provided intel, materiel, and Haig doing the London/NY/B Aires shuttle diplomacy, and despite having (no doubt) a strong desire to retain cordial links with Argentina they came down on our side again. Support at Ascension from day 1, from the relatively small number of hermits who worked there, was excellent - April 14th we arrived, 4 of us were sent to a room in a distant block, where a very nice chap promptly gave us all some beer and we settled down to watch his extensive collection of 'Hogan's Heros' on videotape. As time went by the huge increase in UK personnel put a stop to that, the poor chap couldn't fit 4,000 people into his room and his beer probably ran out.

The only tankers I ever saw were Victors, the only ships were Brit, Korean (I think) fishermen, and a Sov intel ship... perhaps sometime in the gap between my visits a US ship pumped fuel ashore - I'd be surprised if somebody didn't turn up with the Avgas etc at some point.

I was lucky enough to be there for a brief period early on, and again at the end - the early on bit was best by far - hard to describe properly, but seeing our ships pass through was great, walking across the pan (not for an amble, there was a good reason to be there <g>) while the navy sorted the loading out was quite something - guys with backpack radios walking around providing a personalised ATC service to every helo going... there was an endless string of helo's in and out, and when it got dark you'd see the crew step out of the cab with a sleeping bag and damn near kip where they stopped. No offence to the Black Buck bombers, but I though the tankers were something else - seeing them roar off into the night (and being able to admire this with a can of beer in the hand probably had something to do with it) - you couldn't help but figure we meant business.

Of course by the end they'd shipped a SWO out, God alone knows why, and I doubtless unfairly malign the man who I am sure did a sterling job in all reality, but if the first thing he did was find (and have repainted) a flagpole I wouldn't be surprised.

Dave

Quote: In the late eighties or early ninties, some guy in the Paras mentioned in a written account that his unit had captured some American Mercenaries fighting with the Argentinean forces on Mt Longden. He said that they were taken away by some of his colleagues and shot. Special Branch subsequently investigated this claim but found no evidence to support it.


This one seems to keep rearing its head. Spent some time there in the mid-1990s sub-contracxting for an oil major and heard v.similar accounts from the locals, only involving SBS/SAS. Discounted it at the time as 'pub talk' but given the incredibly remote terrain, it would be extremely difficult (practically impossible) to locate bodies without eye-witness assistance / first-hand information. Can't imagine the MOD or locals would have been too keen to assist Special Branch. The politicians, as always, would be happy to sweep any unpleasant realities that occured under the carpet, witness the dropping of the BAe 'bribes' inquiry......

The truth, if there is any, will probably out on someone's deathbed.

Good rumour though. :ok:

AGM-45 Shrike carried by Vulcans vs AGM-88 HARM which didn't get into full production until 1983-ish.

Still, a Vulcan doing the Weasel mission is pretty amazing!

I read somewhere that some USAF A4 Pilots supplied some info for the SHAR pilots. Not sure if any pilots went over to the statse to see some A4s and Mav and Goose in action?

From 'Vulcan 607', the missile engineers sent to assist (I think with Shrike) were officially 'South African', but they sounded very North American when spoken to...

Years after Corporate I met an American who had retired from a very, very,very secret US listening base in North Yorkshire (near Harrogate). We became very friendly and over the five years I knew him we exchanged numerous correspondence.

On a visit to see him, in Florida, he requested that I took along my Beret and medals because he wished me to accompany him to a local event which celebrated the US equivalent of our Remembrance Day.

He was stunned to find I wore the South Atlantic Medal (with Rosette), he purposely introduced me to two of his ex-colleagues (also ex v,v,v,s US listening base).

After the ceremonies at a Veterans of Foreign Wars 'Club house' (I don't know what else to call it), beer was taken, lamps were swung and sandbags were pulled up.

In quiet conversations (and grilling's that they gave me) it dawned on me that they knew an awful lot more that I did (and I'm fairly well read up on Corporate) about the invasion, our response and the whereabouts of Argentinian forces. They even knew the Orbat of Argentinian Forces around Fox Bay on West Falkland on a specific date. The details they recalled were amazing.

What they told me (very guardedly) obviously cannot be officially verified, but the clarity in which they recalled events meant either they were actually present (but they weren't) or they were watching/listening extremely well.

To the three (all USN/NSA) Anglophiles (two now dead, one I've never heard from since, and their other colleagues) a sincere Thank You for the vast amount of intel that you passed to UK Forces through whatever means.

RIP Bill and Russ.

Don't forget, it'd be almost all lit in red and at some point a pipe carrying water would start to leak in a gigantic spray requiring someone to turn a large wheel thingie which fortunately would be conveniently placed upstream of the leak. All this whhile the depthcharges were so disturbing the water that all the crew were being tossed from side to side in a carefully co-ordinated unison.

I think this is a very derogatory post, considering the stirling record of a wide variety of US personnel over an extended period - it's easy for those who denigrate Ben Affleck's contribution to WW2 to also conveniently overlook the fact that Clark Gable was not only a real life air gunner, but also sank Bungo Pete. If it were not for a history of over 50 years of finally wrenching that wheel thingy round then many of us would not be here now to celebrate the repeated victory of muscles over friction and bent wheely thingys.

This isn't only a yank bashing opportunity (for, in truth, I like our colonial rebels quite excessively) - I would like to record that I once had the privilege of accompanying Richard Todd around an air museum (his son worked there with us at the time) and he was of course famous for breaching the Eder and Mohne dams, and capturing Rommel - events celebrated in films starring Guy Gibson in the lead role in the 50's.

Frankly it amazes me that so few people bother to get their facts right when making films.

Dave

Dave, I agree, however, film making is, generally, a for profit endeavor. Historical accuracy seems to take a very distant place to the producers' desire to put butts in the seats to watch said film. If Tom Cruise playing Gibson in a B-17 and Morgan Freeman as Barnes-Wallis will draw a bigger box office, it's naive to think they won't do it.

For a-rgh, et al, I had posted, then deleted this, but since you insist:

Ya know, you can make such a film in a British studio. Just as you can send your two carriers and their air wings down south again if needed.




In both cases, oh, right, sorry...............................................

Dan I was going to disagree then had a recollection.

In 1965 when the Valiant force was grounded the USAF kindly provided drogud booms for the Javelins and Lightnings until the Victor K1 became available.

IIRC the Vulcan did not do IFR (as was in those days) after the demise of the Valiant but I do think it was mooted that they coul duse the KC135.