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Ever hit a model aircraft?
I'm not trolling for a debate about the nerdiness of the hobby, but wondered if anyone had any good stories about near misses or collisions with model aircraft.
Surely more and more of a danger as they're getting very big and fast! http://gizmodo.com/382748/top-gun-20...n-in-the-world |
At the Large Model Aircraft rally at Cosford a few years back there was a Tiger Moth, er, model that the announcer claimed was big enough to carry a smll child :eek:
Is it right that these things actually need to have CAA build and airworthiness approval as they are, effectively, aeroplanes rather than mere models? |
The Large Model Association website gives details. Look under "Information" >> "Over 20kg Scheme"
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Above a certain weight limit (mass, for physicists) - between 7kg and 20kg models cannot be flown above 400 ft unless cleared by ATC (I think this only applies to controlled airspace - I doubt they expect you to provide your own ATC facility in the back of beyond), and you have to keep 150m from congested areas.
Above 20kg you need a CAA 'Permission to Test' exemption certificate, which lasts 12 months, before you can fly the critter. In addition, the model must be inspected during the build (there's a countrywide list of examiners apparently) to ensure it's constructed correctly, an examiner then supervises a test flight to check the 'pilot' is competent. The certificate okays named 'pilots' to fly the aircraft, all named pilots have to have flown a saitsfactory test flight with the examiner. There's probably other bits and bobs involved - there's a Large scale aircraft club (LMA?) of some sort within the auspices of the national club (BMFA), and they all take the construction and proof of competent handling very seriously indeed. Saw a Gloster Gladiator in an article, I think it was 1/3 scale, and looked quite capable of providing a 5 year old with that authentic 1930's 'wind in the hair, bugs in the teeth' experience. Looking for a kinetic energy kill, an alternative is to buy one of the modern jet models instead - you can buy them ready made too, I've seen a few advertised...F15's and the like going for up to 15 grand a pop....I suspect one of them going full chat up an intake would do every bit as much damage as a 20 kilo DC-3.... Dave |
Not a Model... But nearly... :ok:
Flying practice instruments in winter NE of Odiham and NW of Farnborough I thought I saw something skip into a cloud a mile or two ahead. I alerted the LHS to my "feeling" and we watched out. Turned out I was neither hallucinating nor drunk... :D Some eejut had decided that it would be a brilliant idea to :-
Bearing in mind there were both Chinooks and Pumas in the air at the time the resultant collision would have been the much the same as hitting a model with the welcome addition of some nice "squishy, coloured stuff".:uhoh: |
On two occasions I've had very near misses with large model aircraft. On the closer occasion, whereas my steed was audible and visible for probably about 8 miles, the model, which probably had a 6-8ft winspan was invisible until it was within a couple of hundred yards or about 3 secs away. The resultant hard, aggressive manoeuvring at 50 agl just avoided a collision. Having seen the damage a small bird can do, I'd hate be in the cockpit when the engine block of one of these things comes through the windscreen at about 200kts.
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I remember a few years ago at the RAF Model Aircraft Championship at West Raynham, having a Tornado fly through up the runway pretty low.
Would / should the the champs have been NOTAM'd? |
There's certainly a model flying club on an airfield in Lincolnshire which is often directly overflown by aircraft in the LFS (seeing as it's bang in the middle of the Cranwell/ Coningsby gap). I can't ever remember seeing it in Notams or marked in the local warnings.
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Wroughton is used quite often by aeromodellers, They APPEAR to tell Lyneham ATC as we get plenty of warning about them .. :)
Seems a sensible thing to do IMHO. Came close to hitting a smallish model - 4 ft wingspan ?? - some years back .. whilst lowlevel, always wondered how much damage one would do if the mighty Allison partook of a snack ...... :( |
Missed one by 3'-4' over disused AF (Metheringham?) just N of Cranwell / Coningsby gap some years back.... 250'. I ducked, and the HUD video caught it ;)
Within 2 mins the formation #2 (GR7) had ejected and crashed in the gap. He had not been within 1NM of Metheringham, and the "problem" that led to ejection had probably occurred a little earlier, so modellers @ said AF were likely inncocent :D However, given the modeller(s) seeing their model get v close to (and probably not surviving) a GR7, and then seeing on the news a GR7 (£30M?) crashing <10NM away at the same time, they put 2 & 2 together, and unsurprisingly, the BoI never got any modeller to admit flying that day :eek: NoD |
Holland, mid-eighties.
National Gliding Centre, Terlet, near Arnhem. ASK-13 in the circuit on downwind at about 500' AGL collected an RC model in the front cockpit. The front-seat student lost an eye. |
a squad mate of mine hit an RC Model plane while doing simulated gun runs on a Hawker Hunter. I do not know the speed at time of impact,since I did not fly Hunters, my guess would be around 400kts.
The Modell hit the nose slightly on the side then got (luckily) diverted to the leading edge, just out of the engine air intake!! and destroyed the external wingtank completely. He made it back with a Mayday call to homebase, some 50nm away. The a/c looked pretty bad. Had it been a F-5 or a Hornet we all agreed it probably would have been a total loss. Good old brit steel plane... Guess what Air Force??:) Tally Hoe! puh |
OmegaV6
You are quite right; Wroughton and a number of other sites local to Lyneham advise them when they are operating. This is due in main to the ATC Sqn having worked hard to build a good relationship with the clubs and the UK's governing body in writing Letters of Agreement over conduct of model flying ops. It always works if a good relationship is built between the various parties |
Pull up hard
Did it turn the wing tank into Swiss cheese by any chance?!
BV;) Do you think he'll crack my code?! |
I wouldn't think so Bob, it sounds more like he has been gardening.
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I have come over a ridge and found myself in a melee of model aircraft at Membury, which was not NOTAMed. It seems that it's all down to how professional the club is - there always used to be a near-permanent NOTAM for model flying at Henstridge (and of course the unmanned captive baloon at Pershore, which was NOTAMed for about 20 years continuously but I never once saw it).
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Reminds me of an incident involving a Harrier mate who had a low-level birdstrike through the plexi and still managed to land!! IIRC the phots were something else. Well done fella, whoever you are!!
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When I used to do RC model flying up to the age of 17, it used to be quite a specialist hobby. Most models had to be built yourself, the radio equipment and engines were pretty expensive and the best route in was to join a club.
My local club at Tempsford was always pretty strict on flying rules, no overflying the parked cars or pits etc. But the cardinal rule was that if a real aircraft seemed to be looking to do a fly by or circuit then all models were to be landed immediatley, no matter what. This obviously wouldn't have been much help to a fast mover coming in at low level as we would probably only had 3-5 second warning but for the stunt pilots that made regular visits and also the wonderful John Jordan (our chairman at the time) in his wonderfull Stearman, it was easy to get all models down. The trouble now is that with the advance in electronics and the introduction of ready made models, it is now quite easy for anyone to just go out and buy a fast model of about 40-50" span for about £100 and then fly it in the local park /common /sport field. Model flying is no longer as centralised to specific flying clubs and models and it doesn't have the same safety standards either. The electric models on sale now have a motor and battery that will probably weigh about 1 - 1.5 lb and that popping through your windshield could focus the mind. Also the batteris will be Lithium so if they get damaged they will catch fire or explode.....which is nice. By the way, someone mentioned a 6-8 ft model as being large, that is a pretty standard size model now, large models now consist of 1/2 scale SE5a's and Fokker Triplanes, 30ft span Hercs and B-29's, 1/10th scale C-17 and also a 40% scale Pitts Special. http://image2-0.rcuniverse.com/e1/fo...77/Mh19230.jpg |
Nearly hit one near Wellington, Somerset
Looked initially like a real aircraft and therefore seemed a lot further away. |
I've been involved with building and flying model aircraft since I was a small lad. All the clubs that I have been involved with took safety very seriously indeed. To fly at a club designated flying site we all have to be a member of a prefessional body such as the BMFA, LMA, SAA etc, they provide safety training schemes and 'Pilot' proficiency tests, also all members are fully insured against accidents. Unfortunatly like most things in life you get rogue elements who just buy a ready made model, try and fly it without proper training or supervision and are probably uninsured. These people dont care where they operate and will happily try and fly next to an airport or built up area and give the hobby a bad name. At the site I currently use (near Banchory in Scotland, well outside Aberdeen's controlled airspace) we do occasionaly see low flying fast jet traffic flying near by, sadly at the speeds they travel at they have passed before you even hear or see them so it would be impossible to try and avoid. Having said that we dont fly large aircraft which means that we dont fly very high (less than about 150 feet on average) as you simply would lose sight and be unable to control them at greater heights.
Some probably do think its a nerdy hobby, each to their own I say, pretty harmless and far worse things we could do! Quite a few professional Pilots that I know also take part in this activity and one or two ex RAF chaps at our club (one is even ex CFS) so they tend to bring a good safety culture to the hobby. It's not as easy as some may think, it does require teaching from somebody competent or you can gaurantee a black bin bag full of broken model by the end of the day! In summary: most model flyers are pretty sensible and operate well away from full size aircraft. Responsible, designated clubs should notify any nearby airfields of the activity, I'm pretty sure that our lot have told the RAF so they can mark it on the charts. Sadly the minority make it worse for those of us enthusiasts who just like to play with aeroplanes whether big or small. |
I remember seeing an accident report where an Air Cadet Sedburgh glider (so its exactly a recent incident) was hit whilst airborn by a model aircraft. The photo accompanying the report showed the model embeded in the rear fuselage of the glider. The report described the damage to the Barge as 'one longeron severed and another split.'Those of you who might remember the Barge, will realise that apart from four wood longerons the rest of the fusealge structure was dopped cotton.
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Shoreham & model a/c generally
The approach into Shoreham Airport from inland crosses a reasonably large hill which seems regularly used by R/C model aircraft; they were certainly close enough to be worth a special look-out, and a collision was distinctly on the cards.
We also flew through a large formation of microlights just East of there one day, completely unknown to ATC. Fortunately we were in a clapped-out Cessna 172 so the closing speed was relatively low. A fair few years ago I remember a mention in 'Feedback' that a Tornado suffered what was thought to be a major birdstrike, may have lost an engine - can't remember all the details. On inspection pieces of Futaba radio control kit & servo's were found imbedded in the relevant intake... For anyone flying low over North Somerset, Crook's Peak in the Mendips ( a bit west of Axbridge & Cheddar ) is a very active R/C site well worth avoiding. |
Those of you who might remember the Barge, will realise that apart from four wood longerons the rest of the fusealge structure was dopped cotton. |
Silly question, but if the aircraft you are in happens to be armed, would the aircrafts self defence system not pick up the heat of a large jet powered model aircraft heading towards you (assuming its a missile) at a fast pace and either warn you, or simply blast the offending article out of the sky before it gets near you?
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So, let's sum up this thread
....in the blue corner we have the folks that have either smashed into or know about someone who has smashed into a R/C model aircraft...... .......and in the red corner we have the folks who admit to flying R/C model aircraft but who never, never, ever transgress the rules and conflict with the real ones. I spy some inconsistencies somewhere :} |
With fond memories of evening flights, waffling along at < 30kts in the barge |
and in the red corner we have the folks who admit to flying R/C model aircraft but who never, never, ever transgress the rules and conflict with the real ones. I think the RC guys were talking about their own clubs who fly on known flying fields. Surely there would have been some kind of communication between the RAF and the governing body (BMFA, LMA etc) or vice versa? It is in your interest as some of these models take a long time to build and are works of art, it would be tragic if you stomped all over it with your yucky tonka bully bird :) :) Also the way you use "folks who admit to flying R/C".......it's not some kind of bondage or minor drug use.:\ |
So, let's sum up this thread ....in the blue corner we have the folks that have either smashed into or know about someone who has smashed into a R/C model aircraft...... .......and in the red corner we have the folks who admit to flying R/C model aircraft but who never, never, ever transgress the rules and conflict with the real ones. I spy some inconsistencies somewhere :} Most serious modelers (those who have been in the hobby for a while) are very safety aware. They go to great pains to protect spectators, other hobbiests, aircraft, and their own models. The "toys" shown in the video at the top of this thread cost upwards of $10,000. I don't know many people who take undue risks with stuff that cost that much money. |
I used to fly R/C models, and I know many professional pilots who do so.
One thing to remember is that anyone posting on this forum is likely to have a respect for professional aviation, and not be stupid enough to fly a model anywhere it could potentially endanger aircraft. It's the casual hobbiest - the one who runs down to his local hobby store and buys a $200 toy - that you have to worry about. The guys with the big expensive heavy aircraft (like were shown in the video at the top of the thread) are VERY safety aware. |
I must admit to building and flying scale R/C model up until the mid eighties, but I only flew them on Shoreham airport after it closed at 1800. The Anson required a CAA exemption certificate as it was over the weight limit at the time. Apart from the Storch, the models had retractable undercarriages and needed the runway's smooth surface to operate from. The gliders flew from Truleigh Hill on the east side of the approach to RW 20
RWiaircrafthttp://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c3...ft/Harvard.jpg http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c3...Spitflying.jpg http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c3...t/9e6a1889.jpg http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c3...atShoreham.jpg http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c3...rdairborne.jpg |
Tegwin,
What sort of 'self defence system' have you in mind fitted to aircraft ? As far as I know, if you're really lucky you might get something that goes ' bleep ' and chucks out chaff or flares as it thinks appropriate, but I don't think there's anything like an auto cannon / missile / laser to blast incoming bad news like a warship's goalkeeper... A jamming system on R/C frequencies might be worth a laugh, or may just exacerbate the problem and shift the blame. |
I think that the amount of times that a model aircraft has actually collided with a full size is probably very small, I would have thought that bird strikes posed a far greater risk. As a Pilot of full size aircraft myself I do see things from both sides but at the end of the day the vast majority operate these models with care and attention to others. Live and let live. If you fly an aircraft at very low level and high speed outside controlled airspace then surely that must come with some risk, whether that be birds, paragliders, hangliders, power lines or model aircraft.
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There is, essentially, a requirement for model aircraft flyers to avoid flying in controlled airspace in such a manner as to endanger aircraft. The official clubs try very hard indeed to ensure this is treated very seriously - unfortunately if you are flogging round at 3 ft 6" outside controlled airspace then the best a model flyer can do is avoid what (s)he has time to avoid... and if you are flogging around at several hundred knots then that scale model Tiger Moth just isn't going to get out of the way in time.
I can't help wondering where some of these airmiss events occurred - I can understand how the odd valley up here in Scotland might lead to very low level flight, but what the **** was a glider doing low enough for a model a/c to hit it - or was the model being flown over the airfield the gliding was occurring at? (For one example)... nobody with an actual brain - second hand, transplanted from a marrow or not - would fly a model on the approach/departure path of a runway, for example. Even BIG models are quite small when actually flying, the mk1 eyeball tends to limit the range and altitude soemwhat. A regular flyer will be more than happy to avoid colliding with you. The 'rogue' modeler - the guy who buys the ready to fly job without bothering to join a club or get any help is unlikely to be flying anything very large, and they won't be flying it very high in all probability (it's hard to spot a 40" span Cessna when it's 800 yds downwind, climbing through 250 ft). Perhaps it might be an idea if there was a website with zoomable OS style maps on, which clubs and individuals could check to see if somebody was planning to fly at zero feet from A to B during some specific time period... that way the model lot could ensure they were gorunded when a real aircraft needed the airspace. Modelers being keen spotter types would doubtless be more than happy to keep the pride and joy grounded for 20 minutes while some interesting fast jets went past. Dave |
http://www.bfu-web.de/cln_010/nn_415..._3X306-1-2.pdf
this is a link (german only) to an accident report of a Grob 109 powered glider colliding with a 10 kg model aircraft. 4.3 meter of the right wing broke off and the G109 crashed killing both occupants. |
A truly terrible tragedy but who has the sole right to use the uncontrolled airspace? Whats the answer? Do we ban all model flying? How do you stop idiots flying near airfields with full size activity? I've been involved in model flying for over 25 years and thankfully never witnessed or even heard of any model/full size accidents.
Interestingly if you look at most of the technology used in the manufacture and flying of military UAV's they are from the model flying world. The engines, airframe, control systems have all been developed from 50 years or so of RC model flight. Maybe better communication from both sides would help, go along one day to the local model flying site and see for yourselves what goes on, you might be surprised at the level of technology and understanding of aerodynamics from us 'nerds!' Your average model flyer is probably a middle aged or retired gent, probably from a professional background, quite often an engineer or retired airline Pilot, these people are not spotty 17 year olds who terrorise the pensioners on street corners wearing a hoody!:E |
I wasn't too impressed only a few weeks ago at the sight of a red R/C model at 1500 ft.
It was inside the Heathrow control zone, just north west of Brent reservoir, probably being flown by someone out of Fryent Country Park. Not only is that a very commonly used route and altitude for rotary wing in and out of Battersea, but also 5 nms on the Northolt instrument approach. |
I have just dug out my old log book, found an entry for July 1975.
RAF Odiham, instructing with the Army Gliding Club. At 450' downwind in a T21 when an aircraft appeared climbing straight ahead of our a/c immediately followed by a loud "twang". The pupil somehow had headed towards the footwell, still strapped in!! On landing it transpired that the "aircraft" was in fact a model of about 10' span still on it's launching cable(fishing Line). The T21 had what looked like a hacksaw cut extending through the "D" box to a depth of about 4 inches about three feet away from the vicinty of the pupil's head. |
Fair do's, I give in. It should be banned, I'm taking up golf instead!
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On one occasion last year I was gliding out of Portmoak airfield on the shores of Loch Leven. For those of you unfamiliar with the airfield, its primarily a gliding airfield with two ridges along the shore of the Loch which gliders generally fly back and forth along in order to gain some height before heading off elsewhere to look for some thermals/wave.
On the said occasion, there were about 5 gliders 'ridge bashing', all of which were following the standard procedure (going the same way) when some guys with model gliders turned up and unknown to most of us, began flying them randomly amongst all of manned gliders. I glanced around keeping a good lookout as one does when I saw a model glider heading straight for my cockpit that looked like it was certainly within 10-15meters. I took evading action but this could have put both me and the other manned gliders on the ridge in serious danger of a collision! Was definately a brown trouser moment. I dont mind model aircraft sharing the same airspace as manned gliders but it would be helpful if they followed the same procedures as the rest of us! :ok: |
Taxying to the tower at Benson to get out and watch my student's circuits, a golf ball hit the ground in front of the right wing, then bounced over it and hit the fuselage.....
So I pocketed it, sent my student on his merry way, then watched the saddos hunting around for the ball. Only station I know where golf was permitted on the aerodrome whilst flying was in progress. Lots of retired old duffers :bored: wandering around with their bats, never mind the hazard to aircraft. I left the ball in a fire bucket. |
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