William borrows a company Vehicle.....
 

Just seen this on Sky... sorry if it's already posted elsewhere.....

But surely any serving officer could do this?????

So, who's this bloke William Borrow, and why is he a company vehicle?

Damn....beat me to it. :{

Wouldn't that be "William Borrows, a company vehicle"?

Are we sure there weren't two William Borrows, who accompanied a vehicle?:ok:

CG

"Right Wills, now the tricky bit of your training - Flying over water. Here we are flying S&L over the land. The aircraft is trimmed out and all we need to do now is look for the coast. You will recognise the coast as it is normally found between the land and the sea.

There we are, we fly over the coast and then keeping the aircraft S&L we fly over the sea.... tricky isn't it but I'm sure you will soon get the hang of it"

Oh dear Spheroid, you neglected to perform your Coasting Out checks which ensure that the aircraft is prepared to fly over water in safety. You consequently were unsafe, you've failed your sortie and now you're in the sh1t.

I'm getting sick to death of media muppets and others pontificating on Chinooks ops that they haven't the first f-----g clue about. If you don't know what you're talking about do the decent thing and STFU.

He didn't borrow a chopper and use it as a taxi as the press headlines state. He took part as crew in a legitimate authorised training sortie and disembarked at one of the stops while the aircraft returned to base. Completely normal and not at all newsworthy.

But then SHOCK HORROR he reportedly went to a PARTY and ENJOYED HIMSELF! Immediately newsworthy! Summon the fun police! Every idiot with an axe to grind in the media, House of (very) Commons etc immediately leaps on the band wagon, including quite a few on Prune.

The general public doesn't know any better. Those posting on Prune should, chips on shoulder permitting of course.

Non event turned into holier than thou mudslinging fest by ignorami.

Anyone ever heard of the Army Corps? Meticulous investigative journalism at it's finest. No military passengers on training flights - utter horse sh1t! Do they just sit in a Fleet Street pub and guess? I think we know the answer to that one.:ugh:

"He took part as crew in a legitimate authorised training sortie."

Right.

So why did a recently passed out (that afternoon) pilot, who leaves the RAF in two weeks time, who will not be posted to any frontline type or unit, and who will make no "return of service" need to undertake a training sortie in a Chinook (authorised or otherwise)?

I can see that it might be deemed useful and appropriate to attach him to a Chinook squadron on exercise, getting him to man the ops desk, and flying him as a co-pilot and as an extra loadie on a few sorties actually carrying troops. At least that would enhance his military education as an Army JO.

But to undertake a flying training sortie, per se, on an operational aircraft type (as opposed to flying him on a more representative sortie) seems to be unnecessary and - in the light of the ongoing defence cuts - a disgusting waste of money.

And who are we kidding? Technically this may have been authorised as a flying training sortie, but that's a fig-leaf to cover what was a taxi service for W&H to go to a party. How often do Chinook OCU sorties include a landing in London to pick up a passenger before terminating at Bembridge?

How many other students have gone straight from their wings parade to any form of authorised training sortie that afternoon?

And why wasn't he having a beer with his course mates?

I don't especially mind that the second in line to the throne was flown, at public expense, to a private party (Though isn't that more what 32 are for? Wouldn't it have been cheaper by A109 or Squirrel?).

What grips me is that people think that the public are stupid enough to swallow this nonsense about it being a normal and legitimate training sortie. If we're going to treat the Royals differently, lets have the courage of our convictions and be honest about it, and not sink to New Labour levels of spin, deceit and trickery.

Whoever thought that this was a good idea is either afflicted with an astonishing degree of F-wittery (it was bound to attract attention) or a breathtaking degree of arrogance.

Or both.

And while I'm banging on about it, had he fulfilled the normal requirements for the award of wings?

It would be interesting to compare William's training with what is usually required for the award of wings.

Don't you have to complete EFTS and BFTS to get wings, at the moment (there was a time, IIRC, when you had to finish AFTS at Valley, wasn't there?) or get to the equivalent stage at Shawbury (Griffin?)? Wings are hard-earned and that's why they're accorded the respect they are. They imply that the wearer has qualified and is competent, and there is an inference that they have some specific competences in formation and instrument flying, etc.

And isn't there an alternative? Could he not have been awarded the PFB? What are the qualifications for that, now?

So how many hours did he fly in the respective types? Tutor, Tucano, Squirrel? (Dual/solo hours, how many sorties, did he take and pass the normal Basic Handling Test, Final Handling Test, Advanced Flying Test in any of the aircraft flown, and did he fly with a 'safety pilot' in his helicopter and Tucano 'solo' flights).

Don't get me wrong, I think that it's great that he, as our future head of state, did the flying he did. It's great that he did go and look at the RAF and get an insight into how others are trained.

But if he didn't earn wings, then his being awarded them surely devalues the badge. They should be worn ONLY if won on merit.

And what's next? Perhaps a single stroll across Dartmoor and he can have a green beret and commando dagger? Or a day's classroom teaching and a tower jump and he can put up para wings? And wouldn't a DFC and an AFC look nice under those wings. Why not blur the qualifications for those, as well?

Anyone that can move a hydraulic palm tree over London deserved wings in my opinion.:ok:

Come on Jacko, you know better than that, surely?

I flew through the London helilanes doing simulated or real pickups and dropoffs at London Helicopter Landing Sites on numerous occasions on AFT and OCU (and regularly thereafter). I also have often had deadheading passengers on trips, be the aircrew, blunties, pongos or matelots.

STOP PRESS - sometimes they even get off at an en-route landing site that is in some way convenient for them! Maybe in their subsequent off duty time they have a few beers with their mates. HOLD THE FRONT PAGE!

The rights and wrongs of Wills' RAF famil and wings issue have been debated ad nauseam already. In precis, you're wrong.;)

I don't have a problem with Wills using the aircraft at all - on the contrary, I'm all for it. However...

it's not that easy to justify the use of a Chinook, especially when the SH boys are suposedly hurting so bad at the moment, is it?

Jackonicko - What Wills did is nothing out of the ordinary - some of my best nights out/weekends away have been as a result of training flights of some type or another... I bet there are very few military aviators who can honestly say that they have not taken part in a training flight which has resulted in an over-nighter somewhere.

Wrong.
Wrong

Jealousy?

Ridiculous statement with a splash of jealousy thrown in?

Winco - you are 100% correct - there is a major shortage of helos in-theatre... However, you still need some back in the UK to train both new crews and crews about to go out on rotation.

Winco
Justify the use of a Chinook for what? Do you suggest that the SH Force stop training because the boys in the sand-pits are short of aircraft?

Jacko does have a point, however.

In my 39 years of aircrew life, I had many an enjoyable weekend away as the result of a 'training sortie' - we called them rangers on the FJ fleet.

However, I had completed advanced flying training, was fully qualified on type, had completed an OCU and was operational on my squadron.

Having got his wings that afternoon, on one of the shortest pilot courses ever and without having done AFTS and a Chinook conversion course, HRH was NOT learning how to fly over the 'oggin! We ALL know that of course.

So please don't anyone try to pretend that it was something other than what it was - a training flight for the qualified crew that was arranged to take in a few ports of call that happened to suit the boys' itinerary for a weekend stag party on IoW! Nothing more, nothing less and nothing wrong with it either as the crew undoubtedly benefitted from the (allegedly) £15K that was spent completing it. Wills and his brother would have been no more than pax with the royal prerogative to have a seat up front for some of the time.

What's the hoohaa about? But Jacko does make a very good point - tell the truth and stop the spin!

Foldie

Jackonicko:
You shoot down your own argument with the words you use... "Imply" and "inference" indicate clearly to the reader that there is no guarantee of the competence/ies to which you refer which is absolutely accurate. That being the case, Wills is entirely entitled to his wings and the remainder post is therefore reduced to jealous whining.

It's people like you who, because they aren't benefiting from something decide it must be stopped despite how many others it may disaffect. Back when I was in we'd have applauded the lad for getting out and having a good time. Now, because of your, (and others), petty jealousy, someone will change the rules so that no-one can cadge a lift on a "training flight" and get dropped off somewhere convenient. These things are called "perks" and as you erode the perks you erode morale exponentially. In these times when morale is at a premium our servicemen and women need all the "bennies" they can get, because, god knows, they deserve them but you will still bitch, moan and complain about something that really you have no business complaining about and end up depriving them.

It's the way of society today... "Someone has something I don't so I'll complain and deprive them of it". When all is said and done no-one has anything "special" any more. You are a sad reflection of that society. :=

After the revelations of MP's expenses, isn't this a bit of the pot calling the kettle black

Liberal Democrats defence spokesman Nick Harvey MP told Sky News that RAF helicopters should not be used as a taxi service.

I have no issue whatsoever with perks for those who have "completed advanced flying training", are "fully qualified on type" and who "had completed an OCU" and were "operational" on a squadron.

None at all.

HRH is none of those things.

And I'd suggest that someone who chooses to bugger off to a civvy party on the day he was awarded his wings, rather than celebrating with his course mates, and who takes advantage of his birth to get advantages that none of those mates could obtain (and who makes little effort to be discrete about enjoying such privileges) might himself be responsible for blunting morale, a tad.

I would never deny being envious of those who wear hard earned aircrew brevets. Those who earn them properly are worthy of great respect. It's a tough process, from which many good people are weeded out, so those left standing at the end are the best of the best.

Or are of Royal birth, in this case.

My own limited UAS flying dozens of years ago does not entitle me to wings, and nor should it. But my father and grandfather did earn them, and so have many of my friends, and I do resent anything that erodes the value of their achievements.

And I do wonder whether HRH even did enough to deserve the award of 'Budgie Wings'. If he did enough to earn a PFB, then that's what he should wear, and hat's off to him. If he didn't, then he shouldn't. Whether he did or did not do enough to warrant the award of a PFB, he plainly did not do enough to earn proper Wings, and in putting them up without having earned them, he devalues the badge.

It all smacks a bit of Field Marshal Amin, awarding himself rows and rows of medals which he hadn't earned, and in that respect, it's just like giving him an AFC or two, a Green beret and a Commando beret.

You can call them 'honourary', but I fail to see much that's honourable about wearing wings which you haven't earned.

HRH was NOT learning how to fly over the 'oggin! ....

but he might have doing the navigation because the Wokka more or less followed the track endlessly ploughed across the West Solent by the Lymington-Yarmouth ferry!

I had no idea who was on board at the time when I saw it but, now I do know, I am supremely unbothered!

Jack

PS Jackonicko - To make you feel better, I hereby award you a virtual AFC (All Flaming Codswallop):)

I'm surprised
that so many people here have taken such a strong position in defence of this flight, adopted an almost (at times) rabid stance - almost a 'how dare you criticise?' viewpoint. We are currently engaged in a battle for hearts and minds - like it or not or the great British public have an attention span of 2 minutes, and a capacity for rational thought that even soundbyte politics stretches. This flight was NEVER going to be seen in a good light by the British public, and the argument that it was a genuine training flight that just happened to end up at a mega party for a couple of princes isn't going to get the majority vote on any jury this side of hell freezing over.

It's bad PR - whether it can be considered a reasonable training evolution or not, the average Joe is going to view it as an expensive taxi. The RAF hierarchy look bloody stupid for attempting to explain it as anything other than that.

It's most unfortunate that this came out, I have nothing against the chap at all - although I do sympathise somewhat with the view expressed earlier in the thread about where a Chinook is better employed... you can't, obviously, just spirit the helo into Afghanistan for an hour or two in preference to heading to a p*ss up UK side, but those who are attacking the critics so vitriolically might consider the PR impact of the shortage of Chinooks at the sharp end when stories like this break.

It wouldn't have taken much in the way of IQ to figure out a way to get the princes to their party without creating a headline enroute, would it? How many other graduates that day took part in essential training flights?

I'm not annoyed or bitching about what occurred - other than to express sadness that the powers that be couldn't see what a negative story this was bound to make....there was zero potential for anything good to come out of this master plan, If we want the public onside it helps to avoid sighting on our feet.
Dave

Jolly green wokka trip or Green wokka Jolly ?
 

Well said Jackonico and djb - why doesn't the PR spin machine at MoD get real - normal training sortie my b:mad: ! Oh, I see fast track from Squirrel to Chinook - oops we forgot the Griffin !!

The Chinook course would have been longer than his total training thus far !

Must have been just about the most expensive heli taxi ever - I'd like to have known whether there were any other non-miltary VVIP's carried on the sortie out of Woolwich - authorisation for non MoD personnel ??

They must think we're a gang of muppets to try to convince us this was all legit !

Jacko

I'd tend to agree with you, not exactly good press and to me really shows the lads thoughts towards his course mate's ... sort of f*** you, I got my badge now, dont need you any more and am going on the lash with me bruvver.... now where's the TAXI...

Oh and while we are on the subject... Harry, top marks to him for going on the two way range and all. My and I think a lot of other people's opinion of the lad went up tremendously and it really seemed to disappoint the lad when he had to be pulled out after the news broke, but it was probably the only sensible thing to do as he would have been a high value target.

However..... Did he really have to go straight out on the town and on holiday with the long time g/f Kate? .... with so much publicity? IMHO he would have been far better off either keeping his head down publicly for the rest of the tour or getting up and being counted on the home front as a Troop Comd supporting the troops from back here instead of seemingly switching into party mode at the first opportunity.

Ok he's a young lad and he'd been on ops and all (same as pretty much the rest of the Army now, with the Navy and Airforce rapidly catching up) but the thing is ..... His mates were still out there, dodging lead on the two way range etc.... and he's off partying... mmm, sorry but, he lost most of his brownie points with me after that....

Just my two pennyworth .... and no I'm not against the Boss and her family, far from it.... I just think some of the younger ones shouldn’t take the piss with the firms toys.....



ok, helmet on and awaiting the incoming......................

Jackonicko - You're right
 

Whatever your view of the Royals, qualifications always incur a price in terms of real sweat. There is a strong argument that the heir to the thrown should have a working knowledge of those services for which he will nominally be signing the commission scrolls some time in the future (at least in facsimile). Nevertheless, awarding pilots' wings is a step too far.

Cornet Wales could have enjoyed the necessary experience without the facade of paper wings. We all know how honorary the wings are but the public cannot be expected to see the difference. The whole issue smacks of political spin and I wonder what advantage Glen Torpy saw in it, if he had much choice in the matter versus more important issues. If it was just for short term RAF publicity, I am mightily disappointed.

As a fully paid-up member of the two-winged master race, I agree with Jackonicko's sentiment (at least as I read it) that award of wings has been an inappropriate reward for Cornet Wales' limited experience. Whilst I'm not crying into my pint, I feel my wings have been somewhat devalued as a result. I feel no pride in their being shared for lesser training, not because I had to go through the mill therefore so should everyone else, but simply because Wings are meant to guarantee a minimum standard, one I have been proud to share with deserving individuals. At one time (certainly in the last decade), and maybe still now, Wings were simply 'loaned' until a pilot achieved combat ready or operational status on a sqn. In this case, that has hardly been achieved.

So far as the Chinook ride is concerned, shame on the powers that be for being so naive. A few years back (2002'sish), weekend landaways were being cancelled due to the unhealthy interest of the Sun and similar newspapers. Somehow, the link between having an honest beer in a foreign bar and the training dividend in getting there was being frowned at publicly - an experience I think many an ex-Harrier pilot will remember. So less than six years' later, how did anyone feel that this incident would be ignored, whether or not it could be passed off as some obscure part of Cornet Wales' famil training?

Just because Royals across the globe have been doing this for generations does not mean it is right.

"Boss, there's a party 100Nms away tonight and I'm invited. Whats the chance of getting a cab to take me there?"

"Bloggs, if its within the budgeted training needs of the crew, crack on. Don't take the pi$$. Plan it properly, stick to your route and don't screw up. And don't forget to bring back a bottle for the crew room bar."

Please excuse another Journo popping in but I just have to say something.

It if wasn't for "training flights" I'd not have had half as much knowledge of - and fun with - the armed forces.

Thanks to trips in nice white 146s, VC10s, Sea Kings, and Lynxes, I have got to places I needed to get to quicker and I may have had a bit of fun at the end. If someone learns a bit about landing at Schipol, Plockton, Sealion Island or the back of a Dutch LPD then it's all to the good.

I have spent a lot of time working with and for the three UK services and those of other nations.

One day they may be dropping me off on a remote Scottish island for practice. The next day, they could be back there for real with a casualty in foul weather or whatever. Training comes in handy.

What I just wanted to say was this is such a non-story and it makes me sad that ill-informed people in my line of work make so much of it. I just hope Wills and H left some liquid thanks in a mess somewhere for all those involved to enjoy.

Dan.

Back to my beer now.

I can remember feeling very miffed back in the mid sixties when a previously non Army Aviation Maj.Gen. was appointed Commander Army Aviation and on visiting us at an aviation seminar in Bielefeld was awarded Army wings by the senior officer present, it certainly did belittle the efforts of those who successfully completed the course.

Why not award the wings, brevets, badges whatever but have a ruling that if they are honourary they should be worn on the opposite sleeve, chest side etc.?

As far as this Chinook trip goes, "so what"? - if it hadn't flown to Bembridge it would have gone somewhere else and there was training value for the crew, (it is not as though HRH was the captain), London heli-lanes, off-shore procedure, landing at an unfamiliar site etc. etc. Just a shame it got out and wasn't better handled by the PR machine.

Err, I will bet a zillion Euros that there were no SNCO or Erks involved in the preparation of the aircraft, so only a little something for the 'Os' mess would ever appear.

I must say the righteous pontification that is going on in this thread is pretty stunning, even for Pprune. Some of you people are clearly terribly insecure...

The award of wings to HRH was a symbolic gesture, tipping a nod to the fact that the bloke is going to be our Commander in Chief one day. That he was awarded wings in no way denigrates the one's I, my colleagues and forebears wear or wore. I know what I went through to get them and that's that. I don't need to march around the streets announcing it to all and sundry. HRH brings no shame on the RAF wings brevet - quite the opposite. Just think about the various morons, perverts and criminals over the years that have been awarded wings - if you want the value of your wings lowered, these are the people to go to, not some 25 yr old lad who, by virtue of birth, is thrust into this situation. As I've said before on this subject - get over yourselves. If you're anti-Royalist, fine, crack on but don't use these recent events to snipe at the lad and sully the RAF's name.

As for the Chinook trip - whoopy do. Seriously, this isn't a waste of tax payers money. The aircarft would've been flying anyway so who gives a rat's arse. I too am also a taxpayer and can safely say that there are actual, genuine wastes of my money that I would like addressed. Dressing this up as a shocking waste of taxpayers money purely to promote an anti-Royalist agenda is just sad. Yes, Chinooks are needed out in theatre but do you cretins seriously think that we'd just stick them all out there and that would be it? Crews do actually need training every now and then. FFS. :ugh:

As for public perception I can GUARANTEE you that this fell off Joe Public's radar the minute they turned the page to the tits on page 3. Seriously folks, people really don't care - there are far bigger things for them to worry about namely the credit crunch, The Apprentice and the next Big Brother.

Stop taking yourselves so seriously :rolleyes:

Reality check
 

I can't decide which is more charmingly quaint... the idea that PW should skip a party with his real friends to drink beer with his course...or that he cares very much what The Sun thinks of him.

The reality is that he has people who are paid to keep him out of this sort of embarrassment. They failed.

The rights and wrongs of using service assets for private fun can be debated for ever. But this wasn't right or wrong - just stupid.

Senior officers have no business spinning it as anything else. I suspect it's only out of a misconceived sense of loyalty... it would be comical if it weren't quite so demeaning to them and their service.

...or do they think it'll get them a Garden Party invitation??!

hmmmmm....
 

Not really sure what to say. I know that this subject is close to mine and Max's hearts as we both got our Wings and sooooo close to a full career on the wokka (although fair dues Max you got to the Sqn - I didn't;))

Anything I could say about waste of money...not entitled to wings...bad PR for the RAF...etc would just be jealousy as I wish I was back in the cockpit. (Which is, let us remind ourselves, probably the last place in which you will ever find Wills again in his life as he embarks upon a career of being Heir and ultimately King and all the foreign diplomacy horse$hit and grip n' grin photo ops that he can handle.)

Sure we had jollies, but they were on the back of authorised convex sorties (Nice...Souda Bay anyone?!). This mountain-out-of-a-molehill is exactly what Stopstart says it is in the post above: the crew got training; the sortie would have been flown in one way or another; it could have been to Blackpool but as it happens it was to Bembridge; Wills is an Officer, a Prince, and the future King to boot. (Or are all the critics living in the 1650s?)

Endex - back to my mahogany wokka.

Blimey, it really is a slow news week both in the media and on here.
Surely the answer is 'who gives a sh*t'.

Is it me or has PPRUNE Mill got a bit boring in the last couple of weeks?

Is everybody away on ops or something? Also what happened to all of the yank and the banter?

Is it time to start another snowdrop bashing thread?

StopStart

Well said.:D

JN

Shame on you!

God you must be insecure!!! I bet it hadn't even crossed your mind until you read this topic.

I'm proud that the future King has at least experienced some of the training that we all had to go through. So what that he didn't do the same course as me/us. He will never fly operationally - again so what?

MISCONCEIVED!! He will be our C-in-C one day FFS!! :ugh:

Oh and anyone can apply for a Garden Party invite, you don't have to wait to be asked you know!

Can we end this now?

Good post Stopstart and all the others from guys who realize what a load of tosh this 'story' really is.

Well, BigX, I'm with StopStart, Roland, and Goudie here - your post certainly suggests that you're very well on the way with your declared Public Profile interest of "Learning how to be a civilian ".....

Jack

PS But I loved your presumably (with you being a self-styled "fully paid-up member of the two-winged master race) Freudian slip, "heir to the thrown"!:)

The continual, "the powers that be have been naive/stupid etc etc to let this happen" and "who in their right minds thought this was a good idea" makes one pivotal assumption, as follows:

That they knew what Prince William and Harry do planned to do with their time off at the weekend.

Well, have a little think, and consider what information is appropriate to divulge from Royalty. Their private life is none of our business, IMHO. Clearly, lowlife journos have to take a different view because it ultimately pays their wages by giving eye-catching headlines for the masses.

So, prior to thinking that the RAF and SH force is in any way culpable for doing anything other than completing an FHT as they were mandated to do so, how's about considering the true picture instead of the easy to digest, sensationalised view given by the gutter press.

I put it to you, that you (who have made the statements I alluded to above) are the naive ones, for actually believing what you read in these rags!

What's all this bleating because the guy went to a real mates stag do rather than stay and drink beer with "his course mates"? He didn't do any real courses and so did not graduate with "his course". He jumped around from one aircraft to another and never was a real part of any true course. As such he did not have "course mates" to drink beer with.

As for the use of a Chinny to ferry him and his bro' to the party, so what! It was real training for the real crew, whether or not the Nu-Labour spin coming from the MOD and RAF mouth-pieces is believed. I am with those that see nothing wrong with the flight, but a hell of a lot wrong with the lies about the training value for Wills!! Bo!!ox was it a flight for his training benefit! It was a training flight for the crew on the back of a taxi service for him and Harry, but training flight for the crew non-the-less!

And as for those that think the cab should have been out in the 'stan, if that were the case what would the crews and studes at home use to continue their training? This flight was training for such a crew back home.

MadMark!!! :mad:

Even his uncle didn't manage that..

Union Jack,

Yep, Learning all the time and it never gets any easier.

Nope, nothing Freudian. Blame jet lag and too many 'welcome home' beers in the local after a dry trip. Soapboxes always seem a better idea in such circumstances.

Nice Castle, I agree with you entirely. Unfortunately, the 40,000 plus still in the RAF and thus in the know are somewhat outnumbered by the rest. Own goals nibble away at the RAF's reputation and are too rarely counterbalanced by positive press, especially when the same day's press was able to report about some pillock flying low over the Open.

Roland, whatever.