Jeremy Vine show today...wearing uniform in public
 

I am surprised nobody has commented on the item in the show today concerning the issue of Mil wearing uniform in public....I could post a link, but if you go to the Beeb website you can select and listen for yourselves... abit of sub-editing for those who missed it....For, a Lab MP...against...some ( have to be careful here :mad:from the risibly named "Respect" org). Lab MP does quite well with the case.. repeats my own and no doubt many other views re how the PIRA stopped Mil wearing uniform on public for obvious reasons etc...compared how the cousins are treated and basically produced a cohesive argument for :ok:

Enter :mad:struck.....I have rarely heard such unadulterated garbage proposed as a counter argument in any circumstances....seemingly the poor dear was traumatised when he went to Spain during Franco's rule and saw the Guardia on the streets..with guns ! ...he semed to think the UK Mil were the same btw..oh, and that people in uniform frightened civilians..actually, with some of the current generation he might be right here....and that we sort of lived in a militaristic state...the debate covered a range of issues..some tenuous at best..about uniforms of any hue being worn in public..and then came the phone in's...one from a RAF guy north of the border who said the population despised him simply for being in the Mil..an god knows what it would be like if he wore his uniform in public...and another from somebody who was landed at Brize..and had to change in the toilets due to a policy at LHR of not having Mil in uniform in case it upsets other pax....that's as I recall the gist of his comments and I stand corrected if this policy is not the case.

I have to say as well that, in this case, said Mr Vine seemed to side with the against faction......sadly.

Personally, I think personnel should be seen, in public, in uniform and it goes without saying that the great British public could benefit from some serious Mil PR...so no chance of this ever happening of course. As for the "policy makers" who feel threatened by the sight of Mil personnel in public or in their own little feifdom...three little questions ...would you (a) wish to socialise with them (b) trust them in any form of emergency and (c) trust them with your life....one answer here.

As a civy my opinion is that you've earned it so you should wear it.

Why anyone should have a pop at our armed forces personnel is completely beyond me?!

I thought it was rubbish programme, but the sort of thing we have become used to with Vine. He is not helped by a production team that selects subjects based on their likeliehood of being controversial rather than their level of importance to the public in general.

Vine is constantly on the look-out for an argument, but he lacks the intellect to understand the detail of the issues covered, and he does not have the capacity to listen to what his guests are saying whilst preparing his next 'killer question'.

I think he sees himself as a lunchtime Paxman, but he is strictly second division material.

The very worst moment today was (I think) the last comment he read out which went along the lines of all Service personnel being scum who go around the World murdering indiscriminately on behalf of this Government. In this clown's view, we should all wear uniform so that he (and the morons like him) would be able to identify those who needed red paint throwing over them. The fact that Vine neither commented on nor qualified this statement meant it was not far short of incitement.

STH

In summary,

Jeremy Vine is a ****.

From my experiance, if you wear uniform on certain days, i.e Remembrance Sunday, etc. thats ok, but any other day of the year its a no no. Or thats the reaction I got the one time I got lost and stumbled to the bank during lunch.

Also I find the guidelines change from station to station. Some encourage it as showing the RAF face to the public. Others say not too. Who knows?

We had the study team here at Rock HQ with the MP and a few other hangers on. The three groups recommended quite a few options. The study that he will report to the PM with asks how the Public could better appreciate the military at large?

We suggested many things such as greater freebies (free FA Cup tickets for a small %age of troops, discounts on cars, tax etc) Parades etc. The focus was more inclined toward them doing something for us, not the other way round.

The said MP rattled on about 'open days' and parades etc. We had to point out to him that these would inconvenience the serviceman rather than us gain greater public recognition. He liked to force his opinions onto us rather than listen to what we had to say. He mentioned the uniform in public and we retorted that it was ingrained from the PIRA days NOT to do so; it's a big cultural change for many people, in a time, one could argue, of increased threat from rouge factions in our own community!!!

I get the impression that Gordon is trying to find ways to lessen the blow of PR08, which will I'm sure be announced in the next few weeks as a major cut in defence capability, dressed up and spun with some left wing mumbo jumbo as good for the service. There is already talk of big cuts and delays to RAF / RN programmes. This is after all a rumour network, but I think that the likelihood of Brown supporting the very people he and his cronies have sent into combat (in their name) is slim. He despises 'defence' and only wishes to syphon the defence budget elsewhere to cover his inadequacies from his time as Chancellor.

May they suffer from the pain of what they have sowed in the coming years and all rot away like the decaying vegetable roots from where they are derived.

Grim :ugh:

I heard the debate, and was slightly confused by the chap who claimed to be RAF returning from 10 months in A-stan, following on from 10 months in Iraq and was told to change in the toilets at Brize. No offence to the RAF, but since when did you guys start doing 10 month tours?

Not really surprised by what I've just seen on the Beeb site, Just posted my two pence worth anyway.

I've lived in France for a while, local town is not a stone's throw from the base of one of the RCP's ( roughly Parachute Infantry Regiment). The boys and girls are oft as not in town in uniform ( and also in the local airport when heading out for warmer climes) ...not an eyebrow is raised, they are part of the local scene. Never any visible aggro and as far as I'm aware the locals don't wet themselves at the sight of the uniform.......

Now I remember all the stuff about the PIRA and no grobags at SHQ but in this day and age the Forces needs to be visible...are the British Public really as wet as Jeremy Vine is implying?

edited to add: I've just remembered some of the Dads even do the "school run" in uniform - would that be allowed in Blighty?

Vine's show confuses me.

He tries to cover too much ground in the time he's got, and he's forever hurrying his guests from the minute he poses his first question.

It got to the point where I just couldn't bear to listen. He rarely does his topics justice in terms of time allocated to discussing them, and then moves on, but not before he wraps up the topic in a typically biased manner.

The show tries to do too much, but ends up failing on just about every front.

30 + years in and I drive the 14 miles each day covered up........... seeing the recent sentencing of the "crew" about to behead a Muslim soldier for Al Jazeera TV I am so grateful there are so many other numpties out there keeping me off the "easy to film" list :ok:

After 31 years in the RAF, where, right at the start I used to be guaranteed a lift when hitching home in uniform, I am now more than happy (and encouraged) to wear my RNZAF uniform anywhere in NZ and currently, on duty, in Canada.

It reminds people that NZ has a defence force and also reminds me, daily, what I represent.

That may sound silly and egoistic to some folk but its a small thing that matters (to me anyway).

As long as it gets left to personal choice, I don't see why it should matter to anyone else except the military personnel themselves. However, I'd dread to think that our military 'leaders' might start insisting that uniform wearing should be maximized in public as some sort of PR exercise, including changing the London policy (you just know anything is possible with those lot right now!). There is a balance to be struck between justified pride and wearing a target set for some crazy to take an opportunity shot (even if it was a harmless one). It is not as if we hear a similar sought of public support here in the UK as you get in out in the US for their troops, nowhere even close (and I'm not sure that would be strictly British anyway (different debate I think)). Surely, Vine (the ****!) and his (BBC) programme are testament to that.

I'm also not sure wearing uniform in public (outside of parades) will heighten public awareness rather than giving the all-powerful minorities another chance to ridicule 'the norm' and attack the very people that facilitate them being who they are (whoever that might be and, by the way, I really don't care).

Have times changed since the mid-forties or what? The mere fact that a debate like that can occur on our national radios and display such a lack of support towards our troops says a lot about the state of the nation. There's freedom of speech and well there is.... well .... in my opinion, it seems we've all gone nuts!

The sight of Canadian Forces members in uniform on the subway is a not infrequent one on my Toronto subway commute. Nobody bats an eyelid so far as I see - and Toronto is hardly a hotbed of pro-Forces thinking.

It's not about wearing uniform in public. It's about the complete lack of respect for the Armed Forces driven by left wing dogma, a piss poor government, and a demoralised population

You've Earned the Right!
 

Totally agree with the comments above, especially Pacamack.:D

Speaking as a another strawbwerry mivvi, I think the more common the wearing of Military uniform becomes on our streets, the more the UK public will be aware of and appreciate the efforts and sacrifices you guys and gals make.

To borrow from my Army colleagues - Crack on!


HILF

As a former RAF officer (left 19years ago at 38/16), what I'd like to ask is when did it become acceptable to appear in uniform in public without hat on head? I have frequently seen officers wearing uniform publicly but hatless. One of them was a Wg Cdr whom one would have expected to uphold standards, and, no, he wasn't RAFVR.

In my local Waitrose the other day I noticed a Flt Lt doing his shopping while wearing a flying suit. He too was hatless. What has happened?

Wingswinger, I am with you fella. If you are going to do it, do it properly, wear your chuffing hat and don't take it off when you walk in a shop. If you are going to wear it, wear it smartly.

Tinfoil hats at the ready.
 

You are surely not suggesting that Gordon wishes to flood the streets with uniforms in order to create a perception that there are simply oodles and oodles of service personnel?

Surely the public would realise that news reels of uniformed personel swarming out of underground stations and down whitehall on the way to main building with Cyclop's voiceover talking of peace dividends and advanced technologies reducing the manning requirements was but a crude attempt to manipulate their opinion. Surely our lords and masters would not stoop that low?

Take your b****y hat off when you walk in a shop for goodness sake. You are inside. It winds me up to see people with such ridiculously high standards; I suggest that these people also wear their headgear when in bed and in the bath! - barking mad!:bored:

toally agree most here at BZN seem to regard local supermarket as a church and remove hat on entry

... caps off indoors surely ....

...... when one shops in uniform, one places ones cap smartly underneath left arm, peak facing forwards ......

... given time I might find the regs .....;)

Not sure where you are coming from here Mr AEO.

True, at a US Commisary or BX there is often a man on the door telling you to uncover. There may also be a case for uncovering so that you may be identified on CCTV BUT . . .

In the British Military it is the rule that you wear headress when walking about a building and thus can salute on entering an office or briefing room. You are also required to wear headress when in a car whether it is service or private.

Before we got the white annoymous buses you were also required to wear a hat in the bus.

We also wore hats out the the aircraft.

The latter has gone and most of the former are honoured in the breach rather than the observance but it is the norm to wear headress except in church and in church too if you are female.

I think you will find that QR's states that hats need not be worn when indoors at designated place of work, in church (males only) and in civil court whilst the judge or magistrate is present (except when on duty under arms). Nothing there about not wearing them in shops or inside in general!

Standards my dear chap, standards :ok:

MadMark!!! :mad:

Hats awrf
 

I think the ol' single service issue raises its head here. RN do not walk about with caps on indoors, nor do we salute indoors. Army, got to wear them all the time and well RAF, do they know what saluting is?

Try being in the RN, on an Army station and walking past a member of the RAF!

Totally agree: Indoors = hat off.
Outdoors = hat on.

Too many people seem to be embarrassed about wearing hats outside of the military confines. If it bothers you, wear civvies, you're more than entitled to do so, but please, please look smart when in the civvy world as it does us all no favours if you don't.

Why on Earth would I take my hat off? Ridiculously high standards - I think not, just some standards. Barking mad to carry it when you have a perfectly good head to wear it on.

If you are going to wear it, do it properly. If you can't do that, get changed.

Southbound, understandable from an Army perspective, need to keep one hand free for the riding crop!

I think we should all have some baton/stick type thing. Personally I would go for an electric cattle prod for mixing with the real world, would not want them to get too close:ouch:

As far as I recall it was hats off only when in a public room of the mess. Hats on at all other times until inside one's office, crew room or briefing room or until walking out onto a busy ramp to one's jet. Is that no longer the norm?

Oh dear, and I thought it was only me who was confused about hats on/off indoors!

I hadn't wanted to start the inter-service banter again but...

IMHO - The RN tend not to wear hats indoors unless they have scrambly egg on their peak, and then they like showing it off!

In the last hour I have seen 4 RAF personnel with hats on at ABW and 2 Army with berets on. Not one passing RN officer/senior rate had any head gear even with them. Because, the senior officer here at ABW says to relax headgear, I do. Personally, I'll follow that order, although some don't agree with the 4*'s drop in standards obviously:} Some even feel compelled to wear their headgear inside the neighbourhoods - very smart, but is it necessary?

Only people I saw at ABW wearing hats were visitors. Place was no hats, but they did not advertise the fact at the gate. Local rule for inside the gate, if you went across the road to Sainsbury's, there was no excuse for not wearing a hat!

Rising to a challenge, your statement of QRs has an element of truth but is not the right answer:

QR's states that hats are not to be worn on solemn occasions and in civil court whilst the judge or magistrate is present (except when on duty under arms).

It does not state that hats need not be worn when indoors at designated place of work. It does say that RAF Instructions are in AP 1358. On the last 2 units I was on OC Handbrake House had it in orders that the rule was hats ON in Handbrake House for visitors.

The AP states that hats need not be worn indoors at designated places of work.

You are quite right it does not mention shops etc as an exception and one would therefore hope that it was not a designated place of work therefore you should wear a hat in a shop. I agree this could lead to airmen in shops having to salute officers they meet but of course that would never happen as I am sure BEagle would agree that officers don't shop :)

Why of course, but then again some are proud of their hats :ok:

SFFP

I didn't realise that you were a muslim in the military. Sadly this is a typical example of why the general public have forgotten that there is a military. I haven't done 30+ but I have done 25+. When I joined nobody batted an eyelid to seeing someone on the streets, at the bank, in their local supermarket and (heaven forbid) even in the pub in uniform, so I suggest that you are stretching the point slightly.

I didn't cover up at the height of the IRA campaign - no point really, there was only one route between my gaff and the bases I was at and I think even the IRA might have worked out that I was military. As many have said, if it was routine then nobody would bat an eyelid. Personally I would start with MOD - it's time the civil serpants realised that the "suits" aren't all civilians - the sooner the better! The IRA threat for which we all started covering up is a thing of the past, be proud to wear your uniform (but make sure you do it properly) and in public.

Why on earth would you want to wear uniform off base?????
I dont get it at all? and I don't care what some obscure regulation says it's hats off the milisecond you get indoors.

I remember the XO at Yeovilton had a crack down on the Zoomy pilots a few years ago for wearing their grow bags in Tesco. I think that he was General Service and got put out that they had nice leather jackets to wear and an abundent supply of Raybans (as per Top Gun). Plus, I think that it was the middle of the afternoon!

PS - What are the reg's for wearing uniform in London? (Harrod's notwithstanding as they have special local rules:E)

Pontious.
Wrong.
In the RAF perhaps, but not the "British Military"

The RN rules are quite clear.
The RN must remove headgear indoors, unless inbound for a negative coffee chat.
The RN must not salute senior officers on bikes, even if they are wearing hats.
Headgear should not be worn airside in the RN.

One could hope that, but the AP earlier states that headdress is to be worn when wearing uniform outdoors (emphasis mine), on or off base. At no stage I can see does it state headdress is to be worn indoors. From that one could argue that there is no authority, or at the very least no instruction, to wear hats indoors. Ah, the joys of pedantry...

Well it can be just as trying the other way round, CC! Years, no decades, no half a century, ago I ended up on a CCF camp at Culdrose. There were two of us from an RAF section, all the rest were Navy CCF. Drill consisted of a lot of preparing to remove headdress, removing headdress and replacing headdress. Easy-peasy with a Naval cap, tiresome (well for the DI) with a beret, especially as we knew no such drill. The rest of the stay was equally disconcerting, with various Tannoys for Up Spirits, Down Pipes or whatever. The weirdest thing though was that off duty you were not allowed to leave camp except in groups of half a dozen, or perhaps it was even more. Something about manning a whaler?*@! Would that still apply if you wished to leave Tescos?

CCF, oh the joys!
 

Chug, me ol shipwreck, the days of CCF camps do seem so long ago. At least they let you step ashore!