MoD fury as Brown wields axe
 

From the Sunday Times.

:mad:


It comes as no surprise, but this sounds particularly worrying:

Well maybe the PM and Des will sleep well in their beds, knowing that the security of the Nation can be undertaken by the management and staff of Northern Rock, who have just had £ 25 Billion thrown at them. To my knowledge its been about two hundred years since the last mutiny, but the government seem to want to push it. The reason major projects must just be delayed is to keep jobs/votes alive now, and when they do lose at the next election it will all be blamed on the party in government at the time of the next fiasco.

I hate to think of how this will hit the morale of the troops in the sand pit. If its true, and i trust the newspaper, then it is shameful. Could be a lengthy thread LFFC.

Chugalug2 and I had a minor (gentlemanly) scuffle on one of the other threads this evening, but one thing he said needs strong consideration. If we all stand back and let it happen (civvie and military), then it will. Sadly it is some time to the next election. Maybe I will take a walk through the park up to speakers corner in the morning:E

I wonder (if its true!!) what options are open to us?

1. Down tools?
2. Some mass media publicity drive?
3. A peaceful, we are no longer going to work?
4. Commanders order there troops to down tools?
5. CDS requests an audience with HM?
6. Mass public rally in London?
7. A petition?
8. Do nothing and allow the military to decline in line with the country, then when an islamic takeover is ready, it will be a peice of pi**?


I wonder what option will happen???

I doubt the boys out fighting think the part time minister is really sincere in his backing of them at the moment.

Lucky then that they've just ordered the last 5 people who aren't doing anything into Kosovo (well, 1000) - that'll help.
Personally, were I still in, I'd leave! But would that be just what they were expecting...?
If CDS and the other Chiefs of Staff had any degree of decency they'dl resign en masse. Should make the point quite nicely before everybody else decides to walk out....
When I was in (not too long ago), it often occurred to me that the forces were approaching bankruptcy but everyone used to look at me as if I was mental when I said it. Seems I'm not the only one:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main...7/narmy117.xml

Who cares if it dissolves into ethnic cleansing?? At the very least, it would stop all the feckers being here and descending into the pimping, drug dealing and arms-smuggling for which they are renowned:D. I was there in '99 and they really are an evil bunch of people. Independence today?? Hopefully it will give them the civil war impetus that they need to finish the job once and for all.

Last one out, turn off the light.... Oh wait, light bulbs have been cut from the budget, (don't need them if everbody's out of the country 6 months of the year!) :mad:

Just to remind us all - £159Bn per year spent on social security and £104Bn per year spent on the NHS with the overwhelming proportion of the increases of the past ten years going on pay rises.

“Both the prime minister and Des Browne, the defence secretary, have made it clear that to avoid political embarrassment no major programme can be seen to be cut, the sources said. Big programmes must be pushed back into future years while other items on the budget suffer harsh cutbacks”.


The 3 pillars of procurement trumpeted by MoD are Time, Cost and Performance. Political meddling has ALWAYS forced programmes to slip (by simply freezing them). Typically, if you freeze a programme 6 months, payments will be spread over an extra year. The same meddling salami slices programmes, cutting quantities (which in turn increases the Unit Production Cost, reduces spares and often forces MoD to pay a premium for quicker turn round time, to compensate for lack of spares). And DEC/OR have ALWAYS been “encouraged” to reduce their Performance requirements. The book tells you Key User Requirements (KURs) are sacrosanct and virtually untradeable. This has been nonsense for many years. Projects routinely enter Service with very few KURs met.

At a more esoteric level, Technology and System Integration Readiness Levels are vitally important. This MANDATED requirement has, again, been diluted. CDP ruled long ago that integration could be waived, yet contracts paid off IN FULL. This very often renders aircraft functionally unsafe. For a good example of a fatal accident where equipment was physically safe, but functionally unsafe due to lack of systems integration, see Tornado / Patriot (which CDP was warned about). The BoI report makes this crystal clear, yet years later CDP’s rulings are still upheld by Min(AF).

There is nothing sinister in the timing of the announcement. The timescales for PR08 were set long ago and everyone expects this each year. However, it looks like some big programmes are going to have to compromise on Time, Cost and Performance. What annoys me however, is this process will hide some embarrassments, and dress them up as “fiscal prudence”. Programmes which have already spent the money, but have not delivered on Time, Cost or Performance, may seek to hide behind any cuts. I think the Army will suffer badly. Everyone knows BOWMAN is a disaster, especially at Company level and below (which is where the VOLUME of equipment is). For example, on 26.7.06 the NAO reported (page 47) that the VHF radio, vital at Section and Platoon levels, is to be replaced “by another programme”. That is, it’s sod all use, a fact confirmed by the User 4 years BEFORE the contract was let, and thousands will be ditched. BUT, what must give in the “other programme” (widely assumed to be FIST - Future Integrated Soldier Technology) to afford such waste? Then look deeper and consider the System. The VHF set comes with a User Data Terminal which, technologically, is somewhere between the Sinclair and Commodore. Unsurprisingly, and as predicted years ago, it cannot run the much vaunted BCIP software (four applications for quite important things like Fire Control and Medical). Who will replace the UDTs and software which is now some years old and still not working? Yet more cuts for the unfortunate replacement programme.

Forgive me for talking about a Green programme – it should have been Purple but the Air side has been largely ignored, which “another programme” must also compensate for. I’m trying to illustrate the sheer waste that occurs in defence acquisition (not just procurement). You can forgive someone trying his best to deliver cutting edge kit, and just falling short. If you don’t try, you never succeed. But the kind of waste I describe is common place, has been identified in infinite detail to just about everyone up to and including Min(AF) and PUS; and the only response I ever heard was “this is of no concern to MoD(PE)”. (The 2* who oversaw Chinook Mk3, which rather proves my point). Oh, and it’s a disciplinary offence to highlight or try to prevent it. For every cutback they are open about, there are probably many more hidden cases such as I describe.

Doubtless the cuts will not affect assets based or procured in Scotland - that is where the S of S for Defence has his Primary job.

Very gentlemanly Tigs, as one would expect, but as I too learned a valuable lesson it was time well spent. :ok:

Action this day? I would suggest a two pronged attack. Frontal assault on HMG who, if indifferent to their obligations to the Defence of the Realm and to HM Forces, are very sensitive to being outed for same (witness climb down re Mr Pun VC in which you played some large part I recall :)) Flanking attack to turn HM's Loyal Opposition from present expediency based inaction to one of doing their job, ie opposing this bunch of power obsessed crooks! As Tuc reminds us, the biggest foe by far is the MOD. Any campaign to reverse the continual defence cutbacks must go hand in hand with a demand for root and branch reform of the Ministry of Waste. With your indulgence Tigs, I once again publish the site that puts you in direct contact with your MPs and ensures that they follow up on your message to them, or marks them down for not doing so.
http://www.theyworkforyou.com/
Despite our little tiff I still believe in Democracy. It is in truth all that we have, so use it or lose it!:=

I know I ain't an expert, but after reading the article in the Times this bit stuck in my head:

Isn't that sort of thing now worth taking to court under the assorted acts of parliament? Sounds like manslaughter to me, as the MOD certainly did not do enough to protect it's "employees" ('elf and safety anyone?)


Let's face it, something has to be done to nail that shower of poop in Whitehall

Looking After Our Forces the Swiss Toni Way

Rakshasa,

Have you ever walked past the MoD MB after dark? Believe me, they leave the lights on....

Beatriz,

It's just such a shame that although the lights may well be on, there is no-one at home.............

i have just seen the headline on the paper and my blood is boiling.
it makes me soo mad that the fine institutions that keep this land safe and well are always the first to suffer. this is so wrong.

tigs2 if it's a petiton you need then i'm your man....well girl actually but you catch my drift.

in one way it feels like what's the point but to be honest everything is worth a try. look at the herc safety petiton that i organised, that suceeded. i know i am disillusioning myself, as of course it was the immense amount of work done by nige gilb and all the others and of course you guys out on the shop floor.i do have other things in the pipeline for the future and there is plently of fight left in me. it is only right and just that the inapprpriate spending stops and a proper budget which is controlled by those not in their offices who have no knowledge of the real needs stops...phew! i hope that makes sense.

hellsbrink, i am all but a few weeks awy from the start of the actual inquest into my brother and the crews death on XV179 and with the unremitting findings of coroners of unlawful deaths etc of those who have lost their lives in theatre ring in my ears. please let me assure you and others that as families we do not walk away and leave it, we continue to fight. sadly these things take time and with the MoD being more slippery than a slippery thing in the world of slippery on planet slippery it gets very hard to find a way to actually make them take any responsibility.we will bring them to answer.

wingswinger, the money might be going into nhs but it's not on my payrise. i live from paypacket to paypacket and as i have a few more days till i get paid i am left wondering how the hell i will even be able to afford my daughters school dinners and nappies for the little one. that is not the life that our managers lead, yet like you i am on the shop floor, it is me who has peoples lives in my hands and sometimes my ability to do my job is compromised as i don't even have the supplies to look after them like i should. that all changed when they started to run hospitals like a business and i daresay this is what is happening to the forces.

we must stick together and keep the faith.:ok:

BEagle,

:D:D:D:D:D

BEagle :D

Unless the political apathy in this country suddenly ends then I just can't see anything changing. I know we elect the government and not the Prime Minister but we have a leader that was not democratically elected running our country into the ground.

Wait for a general election and it will be too late, what is needed is political activism by the general public. We have the power in this country and the sooner we realise that and harness it the sooner Browne will be gone. Petitions have there place but marching a million angry citizens past number 10 sends a much louder message.

:eek: hold-up I think a surveillance van just pulled up over the road!

BEags,

That was simply, Outstanding.

Quoting from today's Telegraph:

The move to deploy to Kosovo was described by MPs and former military cheifs as "irresponsible", "demented" and accused the MoD of being "bankrupt".

So who sets the defence budget? That'll be the Chancellor. And who has been the Chancellor for the previous decade? That'll be the PM then.

As much as we rant about Swiss, the real rant should be directed to the very top of the political tree. If the PM sends us into war, the PM should cough up. Simple.

(ranting in the pub, posting via I-phone)

I don't see any news here. We have been getting shafted since 1997, what did you think was going to change?

The public know more about the nature and depth of our shafting, but have other priorities....inflation, fuel, food costs, mortgages, house prices etc. They do care, but are weighed down by the fact that Nu Labour has managed to turn every other aspect of the nation to sh1te already.

I am quietly seeing out the 2 years to my IPP and then going. So are many others. Unless you can see things changing with a Tory government (economy yes, defence no) then either PVR are leave at the earliest point.

Just my take on things.

Whilstn there is a very valid justification for the condemnation of the tertiary level sub protozoans in the MoD and Gov't,and I hate to sound negative here, but engendering the great British public to support the UK Mil ain't going to happen.

Why ?....well once the "darling boys" escalated their campaign to the UK mainland..and everybody stopped wearing uniform in public, so did the public stop realising we have Military personnel....most only see the Mil in terms of Trooping the Colour, Reds, SAR Helo's and unless they live near a Mil base, service personnel are unlikely to feature in the publics lives. A distinct lack of PR at times also compounds the problem re public awareness of the Mil functions....and of course they have other, more important concerns..like the football and "strictly come reguritated ham actors" etc...there is also one more issue shortly to hit home..it's called a recession and credit crunch..fiscal hardship for many looms....so the chances of the Mil getting even a glimmer of support are virtually nil.... The Great Leader and his acolytes...and all those sweet young things with their PPE's employed in "policy" units are divorced from reality..but they ain't that stupid when it comes to assessing the interests of Joe Public. Which is why, sadly, I feel the cuts will happen..and by then of course..it will be to late.

How about a coup.
 

Don't suppose we could get the Pongos to park their tanks outside Westminster and show Mac Broon where real power resides. There would be no intervention from the EU. If they are frightened of taking on the Taliban they would be terrified of crossing the channel.

T & B. Why do you think this bunch of wierdos are trying to run down the Armed Forces in the first place. It is this very possible scenario they will bank against. Running down the scale of the threat by destroying morale, equipment, supplies and manpower (largely achieved by finding any convenient fight to get large numbers killed / badly injured) and then dismissing critics of Noo Labour should prevent the tanks arriving outside the door of Number 10 when they finally hand the keys to The Republic of The Disunited Kingdom to the real political masters who have promised great things, such as presidency of a great nation as big as Bushy has got.:ugh:

On the one hand -
£25Bn of taxpayers money to bail out Northern Rock.

On the other -
Sums up where HMGs' priorities lie.:(

"The official, a senior defence equipment capability manager, resorted to black humour, portraying the Treasury as an axeman who has cut off the arms of his MoD victim and is saying: “Stop whingeing . . . at least you have got your legs.”

A highly apposite choice of metaphor considering the condition of some of our injured troops, I don't think.

Why fight it? Why not accept that the democratically elected government just do not want you. Act accordingly and leave - when you stop banging your head against the brick wall life feels a whole lot better.

Eventually it will dawn on them that they have no power any more and maybe some small dissident group will kick their backsides out of Whitehall before the next opportunity to con the British public at an election. It would be wonderful to watch them trying to cobble together a defensive force from the few remaining backside lickers in MOD.

My plan?

March into parliament with a battalion of troops in full riot gear, grab gordon, take him down to an assortment of the worlds press and then tar and feather him...............................

Nice!

I feel I must add, further to the financial facts and figures attributed to the Welfare State and the NHS, that over the last 10 years Labour have been VERY canny.

They've created a state where 12-year old mothers get a council house and benefits to spend however they want. Or even get pregnant to get a council house.

They give a 40-year old bloke with no qualifications and 14 kids two council houses an £40k per year to feed and clothe them. His comment, 'I can't earn £40k or anywhere near that,' so he stays at home with no incentive to be educated or work to contribute and his kids are likely to grow up with the same lack of work ethic.

They're now talking of paying children (and parents) to take exercise and eat healthily, in spite of the fact that fresh vegetables and other healthy options are often cheaper than the ready-meals and take-aways that these people eat.

They've created a sub-nation of voters (12-year-old mothers excepted, but I'm sure THEIR mothers aren't going to vote against this policy) whoare so totally dependent on handouts that they cannot afford to give up the welfare state and will, therefore, never vote for a political party who advocate a cutting of this welfare, and therefore a population who will only vote to keep Labour in power.

I don't have an answer but I believe that clothing and food coupons would be a start, and would stop some of the cash being spent on cigarettes and cheap cider, along with the state benefits reducing after a short period to the bread-line to encourage people to get off their warm behinds and go and find work; do they think I skip along the road to work with a smile in my heart every morning? Maybe I'm lucky: I enjoy my job 90% of the time, but I'd much rather be asleep at 0800.

I've watched university education be devalued over the last 10 years to the point where a bin-men will need/be able to do a degree in 'Refuse Technology' rather than a willingness to crawl out of bed a 0500 (and I've had to do it to pay my way).

We need to mobilise and motivate the silent majority, the middle classes who're being taxed back towards poverty for having a work ethic, who've been criminalised because the own a car and get them to VOTE, not retreat apathetically into the darkness shrugging their shoulders. Proportional representation would be a start, but Dave sticking to his guns and not responding to every little thing that the government (and I deliberately use a lower case 'g') do, but preaching and motivating the people who identify with him.

Rant over.
:mad:

Compulsory abortions for pregnant kids who are younger than 16 years and 9 months of age.

No unemployment or housing benefits to be paid for those with more than 2 kids.

And that's just for starters......

When will these brat-spawning untermensch be forced to accept that, if they can't afford their brats, they must keep their d*cks in their pockets?

The situation of under-funding of the Armed Forces is not new....it goes back decades, centuries etc.

There are a number of new ingredients in this particular situation:

- The Armed Forces are not simply for defence of the realm or attacking somewhere else. They are an arm of government. This extends into the PR realm. The government need to be seen to be doing something - simple, they send in troops. Hence the Kosovo deployment, Afghan reinforcements etc. Doing nothing or saying "we can't manage" would not be the correct message to send to the electorate and may cost opinion poll points.

- There is a genuine belief that the message can be spuin to internal and external audiences regardless of the reality.

- Parliamentary accountability and standards in public life are easily the lowest in living memory. Lying is routine, whether to internal or external audiences.

I suggest a petition in the public domain signed by serving personnel to express their discontentment. It would be a breach of the new DIN but that is an ill-conceived draconian gag in any case. If enough signed then there would be a massive impact and those signing would be immune from charges or administrative action by virtue of numbers and public support. The only way the government will act is if inaction will cost more in political terms than action.

No money and the last reserves deploying to Kosovo - would now be a good time for the firemen/police to strike/work to rule? Might be a way to see off this government without having to stage a coup - if we had anyone left here who could take part!

I'd sign it. But then, I put in my PVR a year ago, and June 3rd is my last working day, so I'd have nothing to lose. I'll be gutted to leave my friends, but thrilled to leave an organization starved of cash and bereft of leadership.

Roll on June 3rd.

In the meantime, the only sufficiently public display of anger would be a demonstration in London. I think the parallel between angry troops demonstrating against the Government, and the anti-war demos of 2003, would guarantee headlines. But such action would also threaten participants' careers, so it's unlikely ever to happen; so, maybe it's time for veterans to take a stand on behalf of their serving comrades?

I'm sure that Argentina/China et al are laughing all the way to the tank park with these cuts. It beggars belief that HMG think less of Defence than other stupid lefty social programmes that keep useless oxygen thieves in flats, paid for by the Tax payer. I'm sick of handing out taxes to house these vermin that have cash etc handed to them on a platter.
The best thing we can all do is leave. After all why should one put one's life on the line fighting for a public / government that couldn't give a toss, to be frank??

It's all well and good handing out money to these low life idiots that have no ambition in life other than to sponge off the state, but without defence of the national interests they may be no 'state' in the future.

Did HMG not cut the services back to bare bones in the 30's just prior to WWII?? In a world with diminishing natural resources and an insatiable global demand for them, we need to start building a credible defence force to protect our resources etc from other states, not cutting them to the bone!

I really hope that wretch Brown comes a cropper with this one and leaves a legacy as the man that broke the UK

Put my papers in to leave last Autumn having been 99% sure it was the right decision, I will now sleep well tonight being 100% percent sure that now is the right time. I'm sad to leave and will miss many people, but I won't miss the continual feeling of being deserted by a spineless government. Des Browne - I bet you don't sleep as well as I do!

No, I bet he sleeps soundly every night.

In the interests of sticking with democracy for the timebeing...

What's to stop a Serviceman registering to vote by making a 'Service Declaration', for a postcode of, say, KY3 9HX (Burntisland), and thereby voting in the Parliamentary Constituency of Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath?

I know this right exists for Sevice pers posted overseas, but I understood we in the UK (and our dependants) could vote in the area where we would choose to live if we were not in the Armed Forces. Can anyone verify this?

Mr Brown won his seat with a majority of 18,000. 18,000 service voters added to the electorate for his constituency might focus his attention somewhat.

Of course, we would all have to agree which alternative to vote for - may I suggest that Monster Raving Loony might send an appropriate message?

STH

:= I could have a huge rant but two words will do me...
Brown out !:mad:

Brown has been slowly but surely pushing his version of a Marxist state onto the UK. The UK is almost there. Sadly there are very few who can (or want) to do much about it, not least the dwindling armed forces.

Sadly. :{

"When will these brat-spawning untermensch..."

Probably best to keep your personal politics out of this Beagle.

I think that we should face facts. We are devalued. We are also utterly reliable. We won't strike or mutiny. Our bosses won't resign on a point of principle.

So who cares what we think?

Brown has to realise that there are rough men who help people sleep peacefully at night.

They are our armed forces. That was a quote from Orwell.