Meteor Accidents - 1953
 

Doing some research in "The Times" Digital Archive I came across this entry from a report about the September 1953 Battle of Britain displays.

http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r...esSept1953.jpg

To have two Meteors disintergrate on the same day whilst being displayed at two seperate shows seems by today's standards to be appalling.

Does anyone know the circumstances / reasons?

Correct. Standards change. Such things in those days were not appalling but just what happened in aviation.

Bob Cossey's history of 74 Sqn suggests that all Meteors were temporarily grounded as a result (Cossey doesn't refer to the second accident), and some skin wrinkling was detected, although there was no evidence that this had been a cause of the crash of Fg Off Ward. The grounding would seem to have been lifted very quickly.

As John Farley says, the standards were different then - Ward was the third casualty suffered by 74 Sqn in 3 months, and it would appear that while everyone was saddened by the loss of their comrades, the fatalities did nothing to impinge upon the effectiveness of the squadron, since it was accepted that this sort of thing just happened.

I watched the one at Coningsby, I was just about to get into my aircraft when it happened.

I never read the BOI report but IIRC the aircraft suffered a double mainplane failure, possibly as a result of previous overstressing.

thawes: There is a thread about Meteor accidents that might still be in the archives.

1953 was a bad year, 486 aircraft lost with 334 fatalities; so those two you mention would not have provoked any particular comment.

More than a million people visited 70 RAF airfields....

Are there even 7 nowadays?

Oh for the days when flying was dangerous and sex was safe!!
GAGS
E86

And the Biggin Hill event was attended by 4 times as many people than are in the RAF now

Way back in 1950-53 my father was a flying instructor at an FTS at Heany, in the then Rhodesia. They used Tiger Moths, later Chipmunks and Harvards. They had cases of students being chopped because they refused to go on to advanced jet training, such was the Meteor’s (Meatbox) reputation. Later on in life I read an article in the Flying Training Command Flight Safety magazine, so it must be true, about somebody who arrived for his advanced flying course, possibly Driffield.

He warned in to the students mess and was allocated a room. Apart from the Effects Officer’s sealing wax on the door jamb, not unusual in those days, he was amazed to find the room was immaculate. It was redecorated and had brand new furniture, new washbasin, the lot.
After unpacking he took a stroll around the mess to suss out his new surroundings. When he got abeam his room he was horrified to see a frontal view of a Meteor in new brickwork. The room’s previous occupant had attempted a single engined overshoot below his personal critical speed.
In those days asymmetric flying was taught with one engine shut down so you had no chance if you fouled it up.

At Oakers in 1961 they still had a Meteor flight for those too leggy to eject from a Vampire. The instructors, wizened and haggard blokes in their early thirties, took me up for a couple of rides. If you are in the front pull yourself down under the wing, in the back, flop onto it. They also explained the theory of the Meteor ‘phantom dive’ that used to kill quite a lot of people. Ruddy noisy inside a T7. Loads of canopy noise but compared to the Vampire you could hardly hear the engines.

Interesting look back at the 'good old days'.

My dad was a national service aircraft electrician. He'd was a qualified sparks before he was called up. He and some of his mates had to supply their own tools because the RAF didn't.

He also has a few tales about fatal accidents involving ground crew because of poor safety practices with armed ejector seats.

Sorry, are these figures for the RAF in the UK?

If so I am truly shocked.

They are the RAF losses, UK and overseas.

Nothing to do with prangs, but some may find this pic of interest:

http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u...t070066_cr.jpg

I took it at The Temora Aviation Museum Flying Weekend in September.Shortly after this, my camera packed it in, and missed out on pictures of their Canberra and the RAAF F/A-18.

They are displaying again this weekend, sadly I can't go, as they have on the card their 2 Spitfires, 2 visiting Kittyhawks , a visiting Mustang as well as their Vampire,Meteor,Canberra, Hudson etc etc etc

http://www.aviationmuseum.com.au/

Great pic. I'm assuming 'Poodles' Wood in the Vamp. Who flys the Meatbox for them?

Sorry Wiley, not 100% sure but I do seem to recall that as the Meteor and Hornet were joining up, the commentator made mention that the guy flying the Meteor was an ex Canadian Hornet driver, possibly Darren Crabb?
As I say, I stand to be corrected though.

http://www.aviationmuseum.com.au/THFC/

Thanks, K Whyjellly. Yoy have now explained why, when I was operating out of Teeside in the 70s and staying in the George Hotel, every time I turned back to my pint it was empty.

Although there will always be some discrepancies in the figures (re-caregorisation etc) according to records I have seen the RAF's overall figures are something like this (I believe excluding combat losses):

Year
Cat 3 + Fatalities

1945 592 638
1946 1014 677
1947 420 176
1948 424 205
1949 438 224
1950 380 238
1951 490 280
1952 507 318
1953 483 333
1954 452 283
1955 305 182
1956 270 150
1957 233 139
1958 128 87
1959 102 59
1960 80 46
1961 74 55
1962 68 50
1963 60 41
1964 62 33
1965 46 71
1966 62 33
1967 60 60
1968 51 43
1969 31 22
1970 36 25
1971 40 72
1972 28 22
1973 30 21
1974 16 5
1975 21 17
1976 33 20
1977 14 7
1978 25 27
1979 27 13
1980 24 13
1981 26 7
1982 35 10
1983 26 19
1984 23 4
1985 19 9
1986 19 10
1987 20 17
1988 19 18
1989 17 9
1990* 29 19
1991* 27 15
1992* 17 8
1993* 17 13
1994* 17 34
1995* 13 9
1996* 21 2
1997* 12 3
1998* 11 3
1999* 18 6
2000* 9
2001* 12
2002* 9
2003* 6
2004* 6


Total: 7554 4970

Jesus wept.

I knew the good old days were bad but those stats are horrendous.

I feel lucky to be alive as Dad was flying Meteors in 1953...mind you I remember him telling me they lost three pilots on his ETPS course including the CFI and two more just afterwards (and both the American pilots went on to die in Vietnam).

In today's culture it's difficult to comprehend.

A sobering table JB. I recall an FSO course in 1969 (approx) where we were told that Flight Safety related losses in WW2 far outnumbered those due to operations. The massive post WW2 loss rate, in particular on the Meteors, led directly to the founding of what became the complete RAF Flight Safety system, from incident to STI, on which we were being instructed. I see that your table stops at 2004, and many of the accidents and deaths with which this forum is sadly so familiar with excluded. I fear that a hard won lesson is having to be learned afresh.

I joined the RAF in 1977. At the time (being a sad and introverted sort of character) I worked out that based on the historic loss rate, my chances of living through 16 years as a fast jet pilot were about 4 in 5. I did the sum again at the end of the first 16 years and the answer was about 99 in 100. Now I'm too old to bother doing sums.

Sven

Military Accidents
 

Chugalug 2

The web site:

http://www.dasa.mod.uk/natstats/acci...l/acctab1.html

gives the figures up to 2006.

You can also look at individual accident summaries back to the 1970s if you go to:

http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/Te...ACHEHINT=Guest

JB

Many of those I've checked on the 'accident summary' website are the 'whitewash summary' and totally fail to provide the full details......

Typical:mad:

But even the whitewash is sobering, Beags. As you say the summaries say little, but the stats tell their own story. The spike in the number of deaths resulting form the Chinook crash at Mull in 1994, more than doubling the 1993 deaths. Of course the drastic cuts in the military aviation fleet over the years has to be borne in mind when one sees the graphs dipping ever further to the right hand corner.

Old Pair at Valley
 

Well, I cannot compete with the earlier colour picture, but I do have a rather scrappy shot of the Old Pair at a Valley Open Day in the mid-70's:-

http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f8...ir001_crop.jpg

The Vampire (as you've posted a picture LL) wasn't without its idiosyncrasies I believe. I never flew it myself, our course was the first to train on JPs, but Vampires and Meteors (for those too lanky for the MB seats in the Vamp) were used by the entries senior to us at Sleaford Tech. No doubt someone of their vintage will correct me, but AFAIK there was a band of Eng RPM that was verboten on the approach (to avoid surges?) not the cleverest limitation for a training aircraft. The effect of this was that the MO kept his window open, even in the depths of winter, with his mini parked outside. Thus one could be only half way through one's heart wrenching list of ailments and symptoms hoping for a sickie, when at the first peep of the station crash alarm you were addressing an empty chair!
The other endearing feature of the Vamp was that the U/C and flap selectors could and sometimes were confused. Thus the after landing tidy up could be anything but as with a graunch she settled onto her belly!

Accident rates are an emotive topic and it is hard to believe the numbers who lost their lives in the immediate post war period. Even in my time my course (19GE 1974/75) lost 25% of those who made it to squadrons in flying accidents. I almost added to that while CAT 5ing a Bulldog:eek:

RIP RR and NS:(

HF

The Vampire's U/C and flap levers were down the bottom of the throttle pedestal, virtually out of sight. The U/C knob was wheel-shaped and the other was squarish. When the port oleo was compressed a microswitch would put and interferance bar above the U/C lever therefore preventing it from being pulled up. It worked for me several times.
If you got a load of flak thrown up at you from the runway caravan it meant that your U/C was not down and locked or the bulb in the nose light that told him so was blown.

5500rpm, or was it 7500 rpm was the minimum on finals as the engine would take so long to accelerate without rumbling like a dinosaurs belly after a bathful of Vindaloo.

Refering to the post below I think this was an RAF FTC mod.

I know of at least one instance of an RNZAF T11 which raised its undercarriage while taxying. The QFI later became an Air Commodore!

From my album

Meteor F8 - 41 Sqn Biggin Hill 1954/1955. 41 converted to Hunter F5's in August 1955.

http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r...nMeteor8-2.jpg


41 Sqn's Vampire T.11 taken at about the same time

http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r...s/DiaTest6.jpg

Thanks for posting the pictures, you don't see so many colour snaps from that era.

You could perhaps spare the Vampire pilot's blushes by photoshopping another a/c next to him...

VP

It looks to me as if the T11 is on a taxiway. Not much room for formation.

Judging bythe dust coming from his port mainwheel, he is OFF the taxiway.

Meatbox accidents
 

I flew in the Middleton-st-George aerobatic team (the "Falcons") at Pershore's B o B Day display on 19 Sep 53. After flying back to Middleton on
21 Sep, I did not fly again until 28 Dec. I do not think the reason for the "gap" was a grounding; I believe I did the OATS course around then, whatever that was - anyway I did not get my oats! Any way, I flew a T7 on 28 Dec "418" with a Flt Lt Farley in the back seat on an air test. Any takers on which Farley?

I spent the evening of 27 Oct in London at 208's 91st reunion dinner, where I was guest speaker. I devoted some of my speech defending the reputation of the Meatbox against some of the malignant and somewhat hysterical abuse that it has attracted recently. Some significant facts are:-

About 3,500 Meatboxes were built and, according to Nick Carter's book, "only" about 25% of them were writen off in accidents.

Ejection seats were introduced with the Mk 8 and later Marks. At Driffield, where I did my conversion, and at Middleton where I was a "creamie" we used F4s for solo work and T7s for instruction. In the former, due to the high tail, bailing out was scarcely an option. In the latter it was an act of desperation because the canopy sometimes did not release cleanly, swivelled on its centre strut and decapitated both pilots. (Or so we were warned).

All Meatboxes had the old economiser oxygen system. The T7 was unpressurised and the F4s' pressurisation was not often serviceable. I am sure many pilots went partially anoxic.

The F4s and the earlier T7s had vacuum-driven instruments with pitifully low gimbal limits and long re-erection times, and these in short-endurance aircraft which had to operate at high altitudes. I am sure many blokes "lost it" carrying out of necessity a "limited panel" QGH/GCA. The Meatbox's descent angle with airbrakes out was steep.

The performance jump from the Harvard to the Meatbox was great.

There was an urgent build-up of the front line due to the Korean war. I believe students were being pushed off solo at the AFSs in conditions which were not acceptable on Flight Safety grounds. But Flight Safety was not the ultimate consideration at that time.

The idiot who tried to do a touch-and-go on one and went through the officers mess was at Middleton - in late 51 I think.

The attitude of the public in those days was "Dogs bark, ducks quack, jets crash". I don't believe there was any mutiny at the FTSs. Everyone wanted to fly the Meatbox because it was still King of the Sky

'Judging by the dust coming from his port mainwheel, he is OFF the taxiway.'

or it could be jet efflux!

I think many of the Meteor fatalities were due to, firstly practicing asymmetric with one flamed out, no FADEC or any accel device save the left hand and a general lack of knowledge of gas turbine handling. Secondly, the phantom dive which occurred when any flap was lowered with the airbrakes (wing mounted) out. According to my log book, the last time this happened was on Aug 6 1988 at Coventry when a CFS vintage Meteor did a display and left his brakes out for most of it. I was scrambling into my Harvard to try and get the radio working when he turned downwind to land. The dive, when it occurred was sudden and mind numbingly dramatic. Thank God he missed the housing estate. This is probably the history behind the first item on the pre-landing check of all the fast jets I ever flew "airbrakes in".

I am willing to stand corrected but was it not the lowering of the undercarriage (where one wheel came down before the other and created yaw) with airbrakes out that caused the phantom dive.

That's what the ex-Meatbox hands told me, Arters.

See http://www.caa.govt.nz/Publications/...ssue-1_Feb.pdf

AFAIK I completed a circuits sortie in a T7, and on taxying in found the airbrake out. In the later days of the Meteor (I flew at RAFCAW in 65) the airbrakes were limited, and only came out to about 45 deg. Is this why I did not experience the 'phanton dive'? Any comment? From memory the aircraft felt a bit odd but did nothing untoward.

IIRC the Dewent had only one accessory drive so the generator was on the starboad and the hyraulic pump on the port engine. When you lowered the U/C the hyraulics took the line of least resistance and lowered the port wheel first.
With the early oval fin the airbrakes, fully extended, would blank off the fin and tailplane therefore not dampening the inevitable yaw and the nose would drop. The later, Mk 8 and similar, with a different fin didn't suffer so much.

Fareastdriver, I managed to scrounge 3 trips in the back of 'Clementine', the Brawdy target-towing Meteor T7, whilst at TWU. Apart from watching my colleagues shooting at our flag, my overriding memory was of the odd light sequence during landing gear extension (preceded by a positive check of "Airbrakes IN") - and the nimble footwork of the chap in the front ensuring that the ball stayed in the middle!

Presumably the height loss involved in the 'phantom dive' needed to retract the airbrakes and recover to level flight was frequently greater than the height available? Particularly if both engines were at idle during the run in and break.

In the Hunter, selecting airbrake in and gear down at the same time with the idle thrust would put such a demand on the feeble hydraulics that the controls would revert to manual - which certainly got one's attention during a VRIAB!

At least in the Gnat it was physically impossible to select airbrake in and gear down together - it was the same system. 'Airbrake' was actually 50%-ish gear extension - a clever idea!