What would keep you in?
 

There are many many things wrong with the system, and most have been covered to death on this site, but what would it take to keep you in?

There are those of us who have already left, there are those that have PVR'd, there are those who are too close to our pension point to throw it all away for the sake of another couple of years.

I'm sure that throwing money at the problem, in the guise of better pay and retention incentives would retain a few, but not many.

Is the only solution to let all the disillusioned leave and to replace them all with wide eyed excited new recruits?

There are a few things that would keep me in for a few more years, but what about you?

Well, for starters how about a housing allowance like the US Forces get? They can even use it to pay their mortgages. Then tax free pay when serving our country overseas and ops. Why the hell should we pay tax when serving / fighting for the rights of ever bleeder back home so that they can live their free lives?

How about leadership from the Airships not just firefighting and management? I think Gen Dannat is a very good example, fighting for the rights of his soldiers and warning HMG that we are at breaking point..

How about a procurement system that focused less on UK / EU jobs and gave the front line equipment that is fit for purpose/timely/ and required?

And, when I go on course because the MoD have mandated me to do so, I shouldn't be charged for food etc...They should give us an allowance as with nearly all private sector companies.

And as for taking away the Married Un-accompanied Food charge..yeh, cheers another kick in the b@lls from a government that really does not give a hoot...
:ugh:

How about getting the lump sum at the 38 point even if you decide to stay on or at option points after that. It would go some way towards the mortgage etc. A decent hike in pay after the 38 point to counter the fact that you could be drawing your pension and sitting doing nowt.

Outside of the personal I'd also like to see some honour in the leadership (the big boys). Have some of them stand up to be counted and defend our corner etc etc

Both, I agree, will never happen.

How about spreading the love and giving ground crew some financial bonuses for staying in as well for a change?

It wont be long before there will be no-one left to fix your jolly flying machines.........

This is a great idea. I was chatting with a USN exchange officer yesterday and she told me that they get roughly £750 per month as a housing allowance to spend as they wish, either to rent or pay a mortgage. The money for rent can be paid either to the US armed forces equivalent of DHE or go to(ward) private rental. She said this has had the added benefit of making the US Defence Housing Agency raise its game.

Such an initiative in the UK would cost around £180 mil to operate (12 *750 * 200000). I doubt this is even 0.5% of the defence budget.

I think such a move would have a massive positive effect on morale.

what would keep me in......
 

Nothing.........we are too far into vortex ring and the ground is looming. The only advice I am heeding is that of my Lord and Master..........'if you dont like the journey or the destination (wherever that is) get off my train'.:eek:

They can replace me with some young pup who just wants a job not a vocation before they get disinchanted, and I will go off with Mrs SLC and join my chums adding to my pension without being undervalued and chronically mis-led by my Govt.:ok:

At the risk of covering old ground (Fitness Test twice a year et al), how about a reduction in the amount of nonsense we're all expected to do?

If my job simply involved turning up and flying, with the occasional foray overseas, I'd gladly do it for half the pay (though tax-free while OOA would be a welcome and richly-earned perk for those who spend a large part of their lives deployed). What pi$$es me off is all the nuisance involved with military life - for instance, I've just booked my PME, and it turns out that instead of one appointment (for a routine medical, this is), I need two, on separate days, one for prelims and one to see the doc. The Med Centre claims this is better as each appointment only takes a short chunk out of each day...?! Then there's the Fitness Test(s), re-signing MT Orders, re-signing Security Orders, re-signing SHEF Orders, Stn Cdr's training days, ISS, pressure to do Secondary Duties, etc etc etc backed up by the threat of a b*ll*cking if any of these currencies lapse etc - don't people have enough on their plates already?

And then there are all the rumours about doing away with MQs, the new food charges for cses etc, which make people feel that their livelihoods are being done away with...

And then there's the impression one gets that all those on high are either impotent or incompetent - I didn't know whether to laugh or cry when I read the thread back in mid-March about a new command, called Air Command, which was apparently due to start on 1 April...someone working at High Wycombe then posted to say that he hadn't heard anything...then sure enough, with less than two weeks to go, the powers that be decided to announce their plan which was indeed due for implementation virtually overnight. Why was this major organisational change made at ridiculously short notice? If the top brass can't even arrange their own business, what hope is there that they'll look after us?

I could go on, but the bottom line (to me) is that money is not really the answer - if the RAF was properly organised and took a sincere interest in the welfare of its people, and those people then felt valued and well-treated, then those people would be much less likely to leave.

I'd agree with Saddam's Love Child. But what on earth ever happened to 'If you can't take a joke, you shouldn't have joined up?'. ;)

Joke
 

Al,

There jokes and theres Jokes- I joined, it has been great but now someone is royally taking the proverbial and it is us and the world that are going to suffer in the long run for it..........I am now un-joining.

Al,

I took a joke for many, many years but when it became a whole pantomime, coincidentally with the end of my engagement, I opted not even to try and stay in for longer.

Been much happier since.

Doc C

What SLC says, only I have just completed un-joining.

MR AdLib for a whole 5 days now and boy does it feel good.

Q. What would keep you in?
 

A. A straitjacket!

Jack

PS Al - I'll respond to your old saw:'If you can't take a joke, you shouldn't have joined up?' with another one: "This is no longer the outfit I joined to serve".

Absolutely nothing now, I'm sorry to say. I've made the decision and nothing will stop me going. Even the decision is liberating, knowing the absolute frustration is over soon. I truly feel sorry for those who will be trapped in the organisational wreckage, due in the near future.

I agree with posts here that there are many things which could be done to improve our lives- and that they won't happen.

So for me, the answer would be cash - pay me £100k per year post 38, AND give me the gratuity I'd get if I left, and then I'll stay.

So I guess I'll be leaving then.

PA Spine and the New Pension scheme :ok:

My PVR was confirmed today. Frankly, a £100k bonus wouldn't keep me in at this point. I feel totally let down by the organisation that I've wanted to be a part of since I was a boy. If it lived up to its promise - excitement, interesting travel, decent future prospects, variety of postings - I'd stay. With Their Airships out for themselves at the expense of the people they're supposed to look after, I'll take Loader's charming advice and get out.

I think dallas knows how I'm feeling. Absolutely bloody overjoyed to be on my way out, gutted that my sole ambition has completely wasted me, and sorry for those I'm leaving behind.

The Devil to ice skate up to me with a holdal full of fifties and the promise that the heirachy will be visiting him at home when the time comes, for the reason of "PURE F*****G INCOMPETANCE".

Sod this for a laugh; I'm off.

I think you'll find they are.........in droves.:ugh:

AIDU you are clearly one of the ones going going south. And I dont mean the Stan or Iraq. Either that or you've been in 2 minutes and are still keen.

Well, if you want to look out for the morale and welfare of your troops there's a good reason for them to go!

For me I have chosen to go before I reach my 30 yr point as I can see only Stick no Carrot.

I'm sorry to leave those behind but.....at some point I must look out for myself and my family.

I'm out, but what would have kept me in
 

No broken promises, i.e. kit/buildings to the standard they were promised to be and available. Posting promises honoured. If bases closed then not re-opened cause some * didn't like it the way before.
No more cut backs in Planes/Bases/Manpower. i.e. give us the necessary to do the full job not just a bit of it.
No reduction in training standards and time in postings back to what they were.
No ticket punching for promotion so the well rounded but bugga all use NCO/Officer was replaced by the v experienced/qualified person that we had years ago.
No JPA, warrants, allowances etc back to pre Bett days.
Military Hospitals back in.
Bosses who stuck up for the troops/unit rather than thinking of their own career. That includes *'s resigning on mass if needed rather than rolling over for political expediency.
Tax free status when deployed on Ops (including NI, FI etc).
Civilian equivalence for Mil job. Not the extra nause of having to do an NVQ but you're SL SENGO so here is a degree in engineering management, Sgt Avionics degree in Avionics.
Proper standard of housing/messes

Nice to have
Lump sum at 22/38 point
Decent housing loans for mortagage
You want to stay in for 5 years past 22/38 have an extra 1K a year.
American standard shopping/R&R facilities
Access to Mil hospitals post retirement to self and family

Cloud Nine, or just a dedicated member of the RAF pushed too far?

I stay in ONLY due to being financially responsible for my family and for the cameraderie of my mates - or "battle buddies" if you will..

Tablet,

Intrigued to read that your PVR was confirmed today? Is that standard? I completed the paperwork and told my poster ..... and nothing since. They have not even reduced my flying pay from High to Middle rate as I expected should happen; I guess JPA will catch up eventually.

Seldom,

I took a chance and signed on for the new pension scheme, hoping that I would get offered PAS this year. Unfortunately a fcuk up at Innsworth meant that my latest ACR went AWOL and was not available for the board. The RAF's loss is my gain.

Even if I had got PAS I would think twice about staying.

Y_G

Yellar,

I think you'll find that when your PVR does come through you will be financially worse off than you are expecting. You will not drop from top to middle rate FP, your top rate will be halved - i.e. you will be on less than the middle rate!

MadMark!!! :mad:

How about not tasking us like its 1942, and then expecting us to adopt 'new civilian working practices'.
How about shelving all these eye catching/money saving (delete as applicable) initiatives, and let us get on with fighting all the bloody wars this government has started.
How about treating us like valued members of the community, and not a commodity or asset to be frittered away without the correct support infrastructure?
How about making some decisions in a time frame of less than a millenium, therefore leading to less speculation and uncertainty?
How about giving us the tools and support to do the job?
How about our leaders, military and government, leading by example, and not hiding behind spin and 'news management'?

Just a thought.

WM

How about your leaders 'learning' a few lessons, rather than just 'identifying' them?

Might help....


...but not much. Implosion can only be a matter of time now.

Staying In
 

1. Pay increase for the junior ranks to bring them up to the same pay as a fireman/police cuntsable with decreasing but incremental pay rises through the chain of command reducing to 2.5% for the top rank.
2. Cancel Pay as You Dine
3. Bring back the old housing allowance where the service gave you a sum equivalent to the sum you have saved, up to ₤7000.
4. Give us 42 days leave/year back again, with the Service paying you back for every days leave you are unable to take
5. Make flying pay and other additional pay pensionable.
6. Kill anyone who uses the words "underpinning", "fidelity", "overarching", "granularity" and "best business practises".
7. Provide medical and dental facilities to all dependants including veterans; private if necessary.
8. Bring all accommodation up to acceptable standards. Now. Immediately. Even if that means allowing those in quarters to use the yellow pages.
9. Tax free allowances for those overseas.
10. Give Headley Court and other rehab facilities an open chequebook to deal with patients

Im 16, and wanted to be a pilot all my life. Reading this, it doesn't seem to me that all good things are no more with regards to the RAF

Dave
 

There are good things, just at the moment we are not too happy and seem to want to list the improvements we want to make, would like to see.
But Mil flying is something that can never be bettered!

Dave
 

Join the RAF and you will enjoy the best flying training in the world. You will meet fantastic people, make the best mates you will ever have, and experience things you never dreamed of. Then slowly, you will come to realise that you are in an organization that has no direction, and zero leadership. Air Officers only believe in what will get them promoted, and do not believe people on the front-line who tell them that everything is NOT rosy, but that there are MAJOR failings at every level. Dave, why do you think the RAF has a huge retention problem? Why are people leaving in droves for civvy street? The answer is that we are undervalued, under resourced, under equipped and under paid. JPA is an unmitigated disaster for those on ther front line (after 7 refused travel claims, I have told my boss I will sue the RAF in open court if detached again, and I mean it)

Is it worth it, compared to the monotony of a civvy flying job?

Never thought I'd say this, ever, but I'm starting to wonder if the answer is...no. it isn't.

Air Officer's patently don't care, CAS is too busy flying his new toy to care about front line rotary and multi guys, JPA is a loyalty killer, and the corporate mentality is the single most destructive attack ever launched on the RAF - and senior officers support it.

They should be ashamed - but they won't be, as long as their stats look good to the AOC.

Don't join Dave - any other advice wouyld be hypocritical.

PS. I have been in for 19 years, all as a pilot, have 5500hrs and know a little about what I'm talking about,

What AIDU says is correct in that it is the conundrum that we who still serve face. If you do not like it - leave. But the pay is (just) good enough to stay. As is the pension.

My mates who are on Short Service Commissions and those NCA who are on 12 years Service are actively doing OU or other qualifications eg ATPLs.
It is a life style choice.

Live n breathe the Armed Forces (with a good pension IF you do to age 55 - difficult if a Para!) or do the minimum amount of time - without being killed.
The (flying) job is glamorous but the reality can be "lethal".

Allegedly, a UK Chancellor said that every pound spent on defence is a pound wasted.

That is the current climate.

Yeller,

I had to speak to someone in gen office, who then spoke to AIR Command to ask whether my PVR had been approved. Apparently it has, but JPA doesn't reflect the fact. A letter will be sent 'in due course' - God forbid anyone at AIR would ever want to send me a legal document as soon as it becomes valid!

Dave,

I won't say "don't join the RAF". For all my dissatisfaction, I've had superb training, had some great experiences, and made some of the best friends I've ever had. Everything you read in this thread is posted by people who are fed up after some time in the Service. Who knows; your experiences could be completely different to mine. All I'd say is this: if you want to join up, you're doing a selfless and honourable thing. Just don't go in without considering the fact that everything the AFCO tells you is told to get you in. It doesn't always turn out to be true. Whatever your decision is, best of luck.

AIDU,

I don't think that ethereal entity is on firm ground for suing the Service, but it's wholly unfair to call him spineless. Note that he never said he doesn't want to be deployed, just that he's utterly fed up with travel claims being refused. I don't think anyone can argue with that. We all know we have to do our duty wherever and whenever it's demanded of us, but if the Service isn't doing its duty by us, I think we have every right to be pi$$ed off.

As ACM Loader said, and as you're keen to repeat: If you don't like it, get out. Well, that sage advice is being taken by an increasingly large cohort of what should have been the Service's future senior officers. That's not healthy, and it's an issue that isn't being addressed adequately. When dissatisfaction - even disaffection - is this rife, it needs to be treated, because at the moment the Service's collective experience is very much at stake. Maybe you and Sir Clive should concentrate on treating the causes instead of berating the symptoms?

:D:D:D

I think that's more or less what I was trying to say in my earlier post but the right words, as so often these days, eluded me...

Ok, so im sitting here reading all of this and in a similar position to Dave. Where I am seriously considering a future in the RAF, albeit I am slightly older.
We all know its human nature to complain when things are bad and rarely do people come forward to say when things are good. But this is a military aircrew forum and I haven't read a single bad post about flying with the Navy. Are they doing some right that the RAF could learn from? Is this maybe where I should be focusing my thoughts on if I want to have an exciting and rewarding flying career?

Thanks

Ghostie

Ghostie,

I'll leave the Navy guys to answer your questions in detail, but I'll hazard a guess as to why you haven't seen Navy fliers complaining on here:

1. The FAA is a much smaller outfit than the RAF => fewer people overall means fewer people unhappy (even if the percentage of unhappy people is the same as or higher than the RAF) => fewer moans on here.

2. The Navy have always spent a lot of time away from home, whereas for the RAF this is a relatively new development (Desert Shield/Storm was the beginning of it, but the major increase in op tempo was only 6 years ago); being away from home is by no means the only gripe RAF people have, but when compounded by all the other issues which people face, it adds up. The Navy, by comparison, are more used to being away - and I would guess that being on a ship would cocoon people from a lot of the nuisance of military life (Stn Cdr's training days? JPA?)

3. Bear in mind that plenty of people (well, some!) in the RAF are quite content with their lot, but those people are reluctant to write posts going on about what a great life they have out of respect for those colleagues of ours who are getting the ****ty end of the stick!

Notwithstanding the above, there may well be something that the Navy is doing right which the RAF could learn from - please tell us, o Senior Service stoics!

Hmmm I have always said if you want a flying career then you should join the RAF.

I said this right up until the point I joined the Navy as a pilot.

Throughout elementary training I didn't see much difference, then when I got streamed onto Helo's and RAF friends with the same scores got streamed Fast Jet I knew I had screwed up by joining the Navy!

Subsequently hated flying helo's, wasn't very good at it and am now flying a desk in Portsmouth Naval Base banging my head against a wall everyday and getting wound up with the service I belong to constantly looking for the next area it can save money in whilst creating some new monster initiative or name change for the 7th time in one year. Current Navy helo pals are bored for want of a better word.

I think all three services are being screwed left right and chelsea at the moment and all three have more beauracratic bullsheep then ever before. The "fun" just isn't there anymore.

I firmly believe that if you want to fly then try, try and try again the RAF you will end up just as disillusioned in the Navy and have more chance of being chopped (we have a tendancy to over recruit then realise we don't have enough airframes to send everyone too then chop perfectly competent people then over recruit again etc etc) You also have a much wider choice of airframe in the RAF then the Navy. I think you will find that most Navy pilots tried the RAF first too (although they will never admit it!!) so feel grateful to be flying anything!

Ok so the RAF uniform is a bit gay but well worth it if you end up in a Typhoon rather then a Sea King ASaC or worse a desk surrounded by ships. Urghhh ships.

Civvy street here I come! FlyBe next for me (at least I won't be surrounded by ships)

MFWF :}

A bit gay ?....How very dare you

The Navy Fly? :}

If you look through other posts you will see a fair number of dark blue aviator moans too.

I was given some advice by a retired 36 year old sqn ldr when I had been in a couple of years - resign.

I was given the same advice when I joined my first operational station.

Things are in continual flux. What we like and tolerate today suddenly becomes too much tomorrow. The young starry-eyed and admiring girl friend becomes the more disenchanted wife when she remains at home. If she follows the flag she has to leave a job she might enjoy and go through endless new job interviews etc before finishing in a possibly lower paid job. The late Lord Gardener PVR'd because of his wife's job and the services expectations.

Join by all means. Don't expect too much. Certainly don't expect the system to look after you.

I'm recently out, and not a lot would have kept me in after 22yrs. The system so far eroded as it is, left no choice. The question however to my mind, is 'Who is responsible?' I believe it is directly led by self peservation of those in a position to achieve their own aim. Belitle the little and damn the rest...The guys at Group level that suck ass above have a lot to answer for! But then they will succeed!

Can somebody explain what PVR means?

Thanks