Massed Lightning takeoff
Gents,
I'm trying to educate some of my younger colleagues that to go vertical in a hurry one does not require a F15/16. Indeed i seem to remember a black and white film clip showing about a dozen RAF Lightnings departing vertically many moons ago. Young chaps at work are sceptical to say the least, not believing that such 'technology existed back then' to achieve said result. I have tried You tube but just get lots of clips of Dave and P-38. Would love a link or other to show that yes, you don't need to rely on American equipment to achieve vertical acceleration and the technology did exist 'back then' Your help would be most appreciated. FB. |
Cannot help with a clip but many fond memories of watching vertical climbs, dogfights over the airfield etc from my vantage point in the Runway Caravan at Binbrook. And not an American in sight! Happy days.
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I believe it was the quickest ever! A pilot strapped to the front of a rocket! Would be great now, but obviously had V difficult missile systems. Somebody told me that in permenant combat reheat you could be out of fuel in 20 mins?? any truth???
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Originally Posted by flyingblind
Young chaps at work are sceptical to say the least, not believing that such 'technology existed back then' to achieve said result. I have tried You tube but just get lots of clips of Dave and P-38.
Or there have been plenty of Lightning threads, this being the latest :ok: |
. . . and speaking of Lightnings, did anyone really intercept a Lockheed U2 in one?
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Standby for plenty of "a mate once told me" stories about it.
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It probably completed the intercept, then came back to make an approach on a USN aircraft carrier (causing them to push aircraft over the side), then went around just as the carrier changed course to avoid that infamous lighthouse......:hmm:
That'd be 3 'mate of a mate once told me' fables in one! |
Originally Posted by Tigs2
(Post 3434762)
I believe it was the quickest ever! A pilot strapped to the front of a rocket! Would be great now, but obviously had V difficult missile systems. Somebody told me that in permenant combat reheat you could be out of fuel in 20 mins?? any truth???
We used to play with a Mk 6 for perhaps 30 minutes but that was usually against a medium speed cooperative target. As related elsewhere, a Lightning was a manned rocket. Airborne, 41k, intercept 40 miles down range, RTB. OTOH, Mk 6 (IIRC) Malta Sunspot, about 1968, scrambled to intercept a Vulcan aa the Vulcan penetrated at some 240 plus miles. As he closed the bomber now at about 130 miles out he was spoofed and sent back to Malta. He was back on the ground after 9 minutes, airborne in 6 and completed the intercept on the same target. (Times are approximate except to the QTR which only required refuelling - other 'shot-out' aircraft also had missile pack changes in the same time). |
Don't need mates to tell these facts:
Done a 12 min sortie and a 1hr 35min sortie in a Mk6, taking off and landing with the same amount of fuel (and not taking any extra on board through AAR). First was combat in the o'head, second was med level PIs). Also, if you did the flight planning sums in the Mk3, if you got airborne in max reheat, and went into a 30 degree banked turn, you did not have enough fuel to get back to the airfield you took off from, speed and turn radius took their toll. Fantastic aircraft to learn about flying in, but not much tactical use in the real world, mind you the 4 x AIM9 fit would have been great..... Tarnished |
My first lecture during ground training as a JP was on the engines. One cross section slide of the aircraft's side view. Script went:
The Lightning has 2 engines, one on top of the other. the one on the top is slightly further back to give the pilot somewhere to sit! Best Xmas present was a F3 with the ventral tank off. Airborne before the RHAG and climbing vertically until you have just enough fuel to come down! |
Shortest F6 sortie I controlled was a pair scrambled to intercept a pair of A-10s. They called off the end of the runway and intercepted them just of Spurn point. The A-10s played defensive covering each other. The F6s were turning and burning to keep put of the gunsights whilst trying to get a shot. Total time on channel from start till chicken RTB was about 7 minutes.
Shortest F4 sortie O controlled was a LU sortie with a clean aircraft against a high level target coming in from the east at around 50K. Canned set-up, not sure why it was arranged, maybe they bored or it was a bet. Scrambled as the target reached about 150nm out, reheat climb, bunt at the tropopause, accelerate, climb, single turn in behind, ident, splash, liner, cruise descent for a straight in approach to land. Total time from wheels up to touch down was 13 minutes. |
Originally Posted by Pureteenlard
(Post 3434815)
. . . and speaking of Lightnings, did anyone really intercept a Lockheed U2 in one?
Can't rememberthe oxygen figures but I seem to recall that a Taylor Partial Pressure Helmet with Pressure Jerkin and g-trousers gave the Lightning an additional edge over the Vulcan of 10k or FL 660. I think full pressure kit and 90k was possible. In this case the Lightning took the U2 from above. PS, forgot to mention that it also took a brilliant bit of intercept control too. When the Russian's tried it they lost 3 Mig 21. One or 2 got shot down and the other span in. |
I always liked one comment I heard many years ago, describing the Lightning.
"It has no aerodynamic qualities at all, but simply cuts its own thread of air, and hangs on it". |
I am having a bad morning, comprehension wise!
"When the Russian's tried it they lost 3 Mig 21. One or 2 got shot down and the other span in." If a Mig 21 was shot down, intercepting a U2, who was doing the shooting? |
Cue someone to tell me the Gutersloh to Binbrook time please?! (Something along the lines of over cloggy land at just less than mach, hit the heaters when you see the sea and straight in approach with fumes in the tanks. Also stories of getting the burners on too quick and breaking acres of dutch greenhouse glass, etc etc). Over to you chaps!
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Tarnished,
I always put your profligate ways with fuel down to hands like a tractor driver! Perhaps it was the fault of the jet afetr all! How the devil are you? |
PS, forgot to mention that it also took a brilliant bit of intercept control too. Once had a smart-arse Canberra pilot who'd found out where the jet stream was and climbed into it in the opposite direction and throttled back. He was, I kid you not, going backwards at M0.2. Now that needed a bit of a long roll out.... High speed, high level targets were much more difficult, especially the FAF Mirage IVs. We'd get the heads up from London as they headed up the north sea with a KC-135 and have an F6 plugged into a tanker waiting. Half an hour later they'd appear at M1.8 at around 55K heading south. Break off the tanker accelerate and take a frontal Redtop shot. Till someone screwed up and it was an F3 with Firestreaks. It was given to a WO controller who managed a 5nm rollout. The pilot, Dave Fiddler, actually managed to close to a mile, took his shot, went Liner over B1 at around 50k - and diverted into CS because he didn't have the fuel to make WT.... Remember U16As? Tgt M1.6, Ftr M1.8, 180 x 26 converting to a 90 x 12. Closing at M3.4 (34nm a minute) - with a 4 rpm radar, and if you waited to see you'd missed it. Sweeps gone through, bit early, wait, wait, NOW, "Starboard 190"..... Sh*t - 2 seconds late..... |
ORAC, I only said that for the non ICs :)
Anyway, holding all those figures in your head and spewing them out atthe right intervals was the trick. Your Canberra tale reminds me of a Frogex. The Vulcan 1s out of Waddo were supposed to do a non-exercise transit over France, descend over the Med and do a low level faker pentration back to UK. Prestige exercise so all the aircraft launched early to allow for late goers. They then went in to trombone timing legs towards Teeside (as it now) to lose 20 minutes or so. Once they hit the French FIR they also hit a stonking, unforecast, headwind. They all pushed up to about .95 and were making about 400 kts to Nice. The French, not wanting to waste and opportunity, put up Mystere's for 180 stern conversions. Everything went fine until they rolled out 2 miles behind :) |
Originally Posted by Flyingblind
Indeed i seem to remember a black and white film clip showing about a dozen RAF Lightnings departing vertically many moons ago.
I have that on a VHS tape.....somewhere.....must get around to transferring it to digi before the ruddy tape sticks together......:rolleyes: |
Originally Posted by A2QFI
(Post 3436213)
If a Mig 21 was shot down, intercepting a U2, who was doing the shooting?
You fly into an MEZ Weapons Free and that's what happens. |
The Farnborough stream take off vid by 74sqn is in the Lightning thread on page 2.
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I can state that categorically that an F6 was capable of reaching over 75K. Admittedly, he did state that both engines had flamed out, it was very quiet, and he was slowly tumbling end over end, but still.....
(In the last couple of months before they finished at BK everyone was doing high speed runs and seeing how high they could get. So, OK, if the pressurisation had gone they'd have been dead, but if you wanted to live fore ever, who'd become a Lightning pilot anyway.....) It also gave me the opportunity to hand over a Lightning to ATC VFR in the dive arc for recovery and, as they accepted control, casually slip in he was VFR above at FL680. :E:} |
Roland Beamont wrote of using nearly all the fuel (down to recovery level) of a Mk 3 in a 7 minute display at Amman in Jordan, for King Hussein. Full reheat was used throughout. I'd like to have seen that! :ok:
Lots of good Lightning stories (many written by Lightning drivers) here. |
I was a an ADO [Scopie] at RAF Patrington, from 1965-68. The original mission profile was...Target Identified at 240nm.
Take off [min Re-heat] climb M0.9 til [I think] 30nm short, accelerate to M1.5, turn behind, fire missiles/cannon, then RTB Total time 14 mins....However, I have seen a Mk6 with tanks go Leuchars-Valley-Leuchars 2hrs 10 mins airborne. Theoretically...:E according to the Pilots' Notes, given a min r/h t/o, cruise climb to tropopause, shut down no2 engine, and cruise descent..with overwing tanks the range was 3000+ miles :D watp,iktch |
Ah! Happy days.....chatting to the DAO at TTTE one evening. Known locally as "Yoda", probably due to his ugliness, this Tornado instructor, (G.R. for those who remember him), when asked, stated he'd easily gone balistic in a Lightning and topped out at "around 90K" before tumbling back down into thicker air.....good memories of him crewing out of an Italian GR1 at Cot, and assualting the student pilot on the way back to the line hut! Special rug reserved for him in front of OC TOCU's desk from what I was told!
A17 |
and speaking of Lightnings, did anyone really intercept a U2?
Yes, me and others. |
Speaking of the proposed 4 x AIM9 fit, I can remember the talk of fitting a Y rail on each stub pylon, but wondered if anyone ever fabricated any, even in mock up, and took any photos? Or was it always just a back of a fag packet wet dream sort of thing?
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ORAC, have a look at Stewart Scotts book EE Lightning Vol 1, Birth of the Legend. Page 157 has pictures of the proposed Sidewinder installation.
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Speaking of the proposed 4 x AIM9 fit, I can remember the talk of fitting a Y rail on each stub pylon |
Was at STCAAME before they translated it into Welsh and it became the AGWOEU, acting as high speed targets for the trial of AIM9 on the Hawk. We were well pi55ed off that they were looking at AIM9 on the Hawk and not on the Lightning. On a black flag day the armourers nicked one and put it on the Red Top pylon. It rattled a bit so they went to workshops and made a blanking plate to stop the rattle. Plugged in the wiggly amps and coolant to the missile and announced "if you pull the trigger it's going to go!" The rep from CTTO who was there took loads of pictures and eventually got boll**ed by his bosses for daring to even consider the idea! After we brought the ones back from Saudi, they were being touted by BAe with an option for 4 AIM9.
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A fighter without guns is like a broken pencil - pointless
OK, talking of Lightning weapons fits, outside the old S of FC at West Drayton was a Mk 2A Lightning with 6 (yes, 6) 30mm ADENs :eek:. Now, I know this was a theoretical fit (for the uninitiated, 2 in the upper intake lip [as in all Mk1/2s], 2 instead of the Firestreak packs and 2 in the front end of the ‘Mk 6’ bellytank) but was it ever an Operational configuration? And was it ever test fired? If so, what happened to the Target?!:E Should’ve been pretty well 'sprinkled':ok:- any trials or APC video of such an event?
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Originally Posted by Downwind.Maddl-Land
OK, talking of Lightning weapons fits, outside the old S of FC at West Drayton was a Mk 2A Lightning with 6 (yes, 6) 30mm ADENs .
The Lightning that used to be outside West Drayton ATC wasn't an F.2A it was F.2 XN769, and was at the time of it's scrapping the last complete F.2 that hadn't been modded to F.2A standard. So, it can't have had the extra 2 x Aden in the forward belly tank as F.2's had the F.1/F.3 small ventral tank. |
That's why I thought it was a '2A - it did have the enlarged ventral tank with 2 x 30's in the front end a la Mk 6.
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Pic of West Drayton Lightning F.2
http://aviation-picture-hangar.co.uk/xn769.html |
Ok, ok.
Frightenings very impressive but, to get back to the original Q: The second trip at Coningsby in the F4 conversion course was a (once only) clean wing take-off, keep 360 kts after the wheels are up and pull to the vertical. Get to about 40K feet and then go down and land. Excellent. That was thirty-five years ago. F15/16? Are you joking? |
Lightning T/O's
Having just come across this site I found the comments on the Lightning fascinating.
We used to watch in awe as 92 Sqn did their rotations at Geilenkirchen and it was a pleasure to have them as a sister Sqn to 3. Might I ask how Doug Awlward??, Geoff Denny et al are getting on these days? Thanks for the nostalgic look back. |
Originally Posted by Downwind.Maddl-Land
That's why I thought it was a '2A - it did have the enlarged ventral tank with 2 x 30's in the front end a la Mk 6.
What you can see is the 4 x cannon muzzle slots in the upper and lower nose. http://aviation-picture-hangar.co.uk/xn769gj.jpg When the F.2's were modded to F.2A configuration, it seems that the lower cannon were removed as every photo of RAFG F.2A's I've looked at all have the lower cannon muzzle slots faired over with plate. It would seem therefore that it's very unlikely that the 6-gun fit was ever fitted operationally. |
OK, So I Have Finally Lost The Plot
Well, I am haunted now by my own passion! And publicly embarrassed too. :O I also searched for a photo of the S of FC Gate Guard and the only one I came up with was that posted by Liffy 1M and GeeRam, which is patently a F2. Therefore, I have to concede the issue as the evidence is damning! (In my search I did find a photo of an F2A that appeared to have the 2 x 30s in the ventral tank). http://www.airliners.net/open.file/0701565/L/ (not skilled enough to cut and paste the photo).
However, I now seriously doubt my own sanity – I walked or drove past the W Drayton S of FC airframe from Apr 82 until Apr 86 and which was (at least initially) in pristine condition and looked as though it has just been refurbished and repainted when I joined LATCC. I recall a square fin as well as the large ventral tank, hence my conviction of its identity as a F2A. The thing that made the airframe interesting to me as an aeroplane buff was the unusual armament fit I described in my initial post. Obviously, I was hallucinating; probably too much Caribbean Coke in my previous tour. So, I’ll check-in at the Funny Farm.……..:uhoh: |
Before you check-in, DML,:) I am sure I recall seeing a 6 gun fit on a 2A somewhere. Any 19/92 ETPS/DFS or other WWOLs on here to comment?
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Originally Posted by Downwind.Maddl-Land
(In my search I did find a photo of an F2A that appeared to have the 2 x 30s in the ventral tank).
Bear in mind that this is a museum aircraft (retired in the late 70's) and these do get refurbished with non-original parts from time to time, and that belly tank looks very clean compared to the rest of the airframe.....maybe a replacement ventral tank from one of the late 80's/early 90's scrapped F.6's which would have had the forward belly tank 2 30's.......:confused: Note the two F.2 lower nose gun ports blanked off, as per all the in-service F.2A photos I can find showing this. Another reason I suspect this is a replacement F.6 ventral tank fitted at some point by the museum.
Originally Posted by BOAC
I am sure I recall seeing a 6 gun fit on a 2A somewhere.
Had a vague feeling it was a Warton trials aircraft or one of the export fit SBAC publicty photos from the sixties, rather than a RAF sqn service aircraft. Couldn't find it though.....:rolleyes: |
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