The official line on is it will be given to the families in June but as yet no set date has been given

TSM...As tiresome as this is becoming I'll reply...No-body is saying do not talk about the aircraft...all I, and to be honest a growing number of my operator colleagues are saying is cut back on the harmful conjecture...the desperate grasping of straws...The plucking from the air to keep the subject warm...The talking with technical authority in one breath then a sidestep in another and so on...

How about giving the fleet a break? Sure, rumour away at an appropriate level and perhaps put as much emotive effort into why they aren't getting airborne enough currently instead of trying to ground the fleet...If the BOI supplies us with the facts that satisfy the many interested parties then happy days...If it leaves us feeling as uneasy as some in here I'll personally construct my own tin foil hat and join the gang...

I do wonder what some people here, are trying to find out. I echo Vim Fuego's words in that all the conjecture and speculation isn't doing anything positive for those still operating the fleet, and certainly nothing for the families. Why can't we all just wait for the BOI's findings and take the fight from there?

I was told by Wing Commander ...... ...... that there was a fuel leak on the Nimrod . FACT

And let me just put the record straight once and for all.

The Knight family have been liaising with a L*** M******** from the BBC in relation to a programme "
Can I draw your attention to the word Liasing this means "To communicate with or be in contact with someone , often in order to discuss something"
I have at no time said that I will be appearing on any BBC programme and neither have I been interviewed for any BBC programme .FACT
I have however appeared on the BBC News ,ITV News, and Sky News talking about the petition to Downing street Re the 3-4year wait for an Inquest .FACT

And I am sure once the BOI findings are released to the press they will be asking many of the familes to appear on the news to give there feelings.FACT

Does anyone else on here apart from me think they will be interviewed by the media . What I am seeking is information so when I am asked to comment I can make an informed comment .
As it has been pointed out I am not an Aviator I am a former Registered Nurse.And if I showed you a medical report saying Px's, TTAs and asyptomatic you wouldn't have a clue what I was talking about. The same with me I have got some of the jargon but the report will be full of the stuff. So its info like abrevations etc types of wiring, fuel pipes I am after so I don't stand in front of a camera not knowing how to reply.

VF

What gives the right to tell a grieving father, or indeed anyone what they can and can't say or do? Just who the hell do you think you are? And what exactly is the problem here that you have so much difficulty undrestanding? You are begining to sound like some pathetic bullied little schoolboy......

'harmful conjecture...the desperate grasping of straws...The plucking from the air to keep the subject warm...The talking with technical authority in one breath then a sidestep in another and so on...' how utterly pathetic you sound. Where is there any harmful conjecture? What has been plucked from the air or grasped at straws?

And what about this 'How about giving the fleet a break' Come on man, take a reality pill. People are NOT having a go at the 'fleet' nor are they having a go at the aircrew and certainly not the groundcrew. People are discussing this tragic event on an open forum in a fairly sensible and civilised manner (compared to a lot on prune) I fail to see why you are getting so upset by it.

TD dosn't want to wait another week or month. In fact, I should think that he and his family don't want to wait another second more. They want answers right now. I appreciate they might not be able to get them yet, but stop telling him (and others) that they can't ask questions about their loved ones, or make genuine enquiries about a 'possible' cause or reason for the accident. He admits that he isn't an aviator, so why not direct your efforts into aiding him rarther than lambasting him?? shame on you really VF.

I was on the fleet also, and I want answers too. I lost many good friends that day like many others and its human nature that people will talk about it and speculate (not that I have made any speculation on here whatsoever) especially if they are ex Nimrod aircrew or groundcrew.

But I'll say the same to you and froobs as I did to Betty, if you don't want to read it, then its quite simple......don't look at it. It really is that easy.

Mr Knight, you carry on Sir, and keep asking as many questions as you like, and feel free to pm anytime you want with any specifics.
Kind regards
TSM

TSM...

'He who angers you conquers you.' (Elizabeth Kenny )

Seriously though, I'm not going to back down on my stance and apparently neither are you...I doubt wether Froobs or Difar69 (I have no idea who these people are and probably never will) and many others who stop short of contributing will cease reading this forum due to your 'outrage' and 'shame on you's'...I think I'll stick around and join in the informed discussion the BOI results are bound to stimulate.

My very best wishes to you.
Vim

'

Vim,
I'm not angered mate, I just don't believe that any of us on this thread have the right to tell Bens Dad (or anyone in their position) what he can or cannot do, or what he can or cannot say or ask, thats all.

Don't back down on your stance by all means, that's what freedom of speech is all about, but don't give a grieving father, mother or anyone in that position a hard time for asking fair and justified questions, please. Thats all I'm saying here. Thank you.

My best wishes to you also.
TSM
ps. I know who difar69 is, but not froobs, and who the hell was Liz Kenny?

The truth is incontrovertible, malice may attack it, ignorance may deride it, but in the end; there it is.”:ugh:

Winston Churchill

“What is this the sound and rumor? What is this that all men hear, Like the wind in hollow valleys when the storm is drawing near, Like the rolling of the ocean in the eventide of fear? 'Tis the people marching on”

William Morris

In other words
As we know, there are known knowns; there are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns; that is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns - the ones we don't know we don't know.

Donald Rumsfeld, United States Secretary of Defence

First of all, I have every sympathy with Tappers Dad for wanting to understand the technicalities of what may have happened to 230 and, similarly, his interest in problems relating to other Nimrods. That said, I think I understand the point that Vim_Fuego is making.

Let us remember that this Thread was started by a certain Ian Liddell-Grainger, MP. He may or may not be solely concerned with the interests of one of his Constituents; who really knows what the true motives of a politician are. I would say that the man deserves the benefit of the doubt and should be afforded every courtesy. We must think of the possible outcomes, though. One may be a recognition that the Nimrod force is under-resourced and needs additional support and funding. On the other hand, it may recognise an under-resourced Nimrod force that is not deemed worthy of additional support and funding. The former case would to many here be a blessing and result in restoration of the Nimrods as safe available force elements. The latter case, though, would probably result in the loss of a still essential capability, at a net cash saving, as a duty of care matter.

Basically, while facts are facts, politics will always be politics and I would recommend caution and clarity on phrasing replies and points.

TD, Keep up the good work sir. If I can be of assistance don't hesitate to ask. Our thoughts and prayers are with you and all the grieving families. Keep Fighting.

TSM Well said.

Lab Queen: I am informed that the BOI will not report in June, thay are still working on it, and will release it asap. It will will then do the signature round.

TD: Are you sure that a W/C told you that the Nimrod had a fuel leak? This would have been speculation if he did.

DV

DV
To avoid giving out details on here which may cause upset I will pm you what we were told on the understanding it is not then posted on ANY THREAD as was a previous pm I did to someone. Agreed

On the point of Tappers dad saying they were informed officially of a fuel leak, I will back that up as my family was also told this information.

As to the BOI, I have been informed that the BOI findings will be made to the families in June, though no set date is in place, when the report then makes the rounds, I do not know.

Found on another forum talking about Kinloss! confidence inspiring stuff!


At my present posting, by the time all the PVR's filter through the only non JNCO or above ranked guys on my desk (for my shift) will be myself and an SAC(t), both of us having only newly arrived on the section. He has no 1st line experience and I have no experience on this aircraft type, only fast jet.

In the space of 15 months nine fairys from my shift have PVR'd leaving a gaping hole in experience. Add to this the continued desert dets, flying the boll*cks off the jets and plumeting morale.

Toddbabe
 

Just read this on a unclassified brief about the state of the military as at Apr 07:

"Voluntary Outflow rates have varied little over the last few years. In addition to existing retention measures to rectify outflow from shortage trades the AFPRB have announced further incentives for the Infantry, Royal Marines and aircrew. Voluntary outflow has dropped over the last quarter."

Not quite what I am seeing or hearing.

If that last statement isn't a head in the sand and make up a soundbite then I don't know what is.

I agree CS :D

My son was fond of his quotes and here's an appropriate one I think:

"In the end, we will remember not the words of our enemies, but the silence of our friends."
- Martin Luther King Jr.

I was taught that while good men stand by and do nothing then nothing will get done. But I am pleased to say that there are good men on Pprune who are not standing by and doing nothing.

To Vim_Fuego

When you said
"How about giving the fleet a break? Sure, rumour away at an appropriate level and perhaps put as much emotive effort into why they aren't getting airborne enough currently instead of trying to ground the fleet".

Perhaps toddbabe has gone some way to answering why "they aren't getting airborne enough currently"

And Froobs you said
"all the conjecture and speculation isn't doing anything positive for those still operating the fleet"

Do you honestly think those of us on here who ask questions can have any influence on the those still operating the fleet. If you do then you are saying the few good men on here are able to make a difference add an MP to that and who knows what may be achieved.

Maybe the fleet my son was so proud to be part of will once again be a fleet full of highly motivated aviators.

TD...We all know amongst the fleet why the aircraft aren't getting airborne enough...maybe I was being too subtle for you...It's always been a manpower issue with our groundcrew and there nothing particuarly sinister about it either...It's down to multiple and repetitive deployments and a job market that lures them away...The people that are left are doing a herculean job to make the flypro but it must be getting harder every day as experience bleeds out...


"Maybe the fleet my son was so proud to be part of will once again be a fleet full of highly motivated aviators."
Whats your insinuation?

VM
"Whats your insinuation?"
Not so much an insinuation more of an observation, wasn't there a thread a while back entitled
Kinloss........Whats Going on?
Here are a few reminders of postings

Ginger Beer "I hear of Aircrew refusing to fly the mighty hunter any more and QFI's, line Pilots and Flight Eng's PVR'ing in large numbers, what is the truth and what are the real reasons behind the issues?"

The Swinging Monkey "I don't think I have ever spoken to friends who are so sick-to-death with what is happening, not only to the aircraft that they fly, but to the station and the squadrons and the RAF in general."

Had Enough 77 "I was back up visiting ISK recently and you can feel the difference on the base, the atmosphere has definately changed. There is going to be a large experience gap in the fleet due to basically all the experienced pilots PVRing along with a significant number of flight engineers"

nimblast " ISK is no longer fit for purpose.
Until it stops pretending otherwise nothing will change."

Etc etc.......
Not my words those written by others more knowledgeable than me.
Low morale =Low motivation or is there no correlation ?

Some people are bugging out, many are staying. Morale is low for some and not for others. Amongst the knockers I don't think many have pvr'd (low single figures) but I think more people are thinking hard about what to do at their IP points. Lots of pilots are jumping ship all over the RAF to attractive packages with the airlines as for many the career options that perhaps they joined up with are shrinking as the RAF comes down in numbers, squadrons and aircraft. Eng's are an odd lot as we've stopped training them but not stopped needing them...The location of ISK for some eng's that have been asked to go from southern bases to up north has been a factor...And what can the posters do if the option of waiting for the training system to spit out some more has been disbanded? ans: keep trying to post more until one sticks.

From a personal point of view I don't connect morale with motivation as the fleet is still attempting it's tasking with the level of professionalism people expect of the maritime force... To be honest if the motivation wasn't there you perhaps wouldn't climb up the steps.

TD
I totally sympathise with how you must be feeling, but at the risk of being flamed out of existence, it's probably worth bearing in mind 2 things:
Firstly the warning on the front page of this forum which says 'As these are anonymous forums the origins of the contributions may be opposite to what may be apparent. In fact the press may use it, or the unscrupulous, to elicit certain reactions.' and secondly that out of 45000 (ish) serving members of the Royal Air Force, only about 40 - 50 (and I'm being deliberately on the high side here to avoid claims of understating the number) regularly post here. That is a tiny tiny fraction of an overwhelmingly larger number who don't feel strongly enough about many of the topics here to post on them (although I suspect the majority like me like to view the threads occasionally to see what might be an issue in the future). Some of the postings I have seen here have been ill informed, hopefully unintentionally, but ill informed nonetheless.
I have been honoured to have been a member of the MR2 flying fraternity for over 20 years and knew and served with all of the aircrew on XV230. I really believe that the right thing to do is to wait and see what the BOI says and then question any bits that I either don't understand or don't agree with. Unlike many here, I do have faith in the BOI system - there have been hundreds over the years and I can only think of 2 or 3 out of all of those that (in my view) might have been questionable. I also know some of the people involved with this BOI and they are all good people who have worked extremely hard for very long hours - I refuse to believe that anyone wants to see the thousands of man hours wasted by producing a report that everyone disagrees with. My only worry is that they won't be able to gather enough evidence to come to any meaningful conclusions.
All the best to you and I hope you take this in the well meaning spirit in which it is intended.
Fin

TD, on reflection, I should have worded my last post in a clearer manner so apologies there. I was commenting on the ongoing speculation, and the fact that ISK and its aviators still have to fly the aircraft with all the he reckons this, and she reckons that, as to the safety of the MR2. I am of the opinion that supposition and second guessing is not conducive to the instilling of confidence with those still flying. Let's see what the BOI has to say about the tragic loss when it finally releases its findings.

Respects to all

Fistly may I remind some of you of an earlier posting on
Kinloss whats going on
http://www.pprune.org/forums/images/...n/post_old.gif 28th March 2007, 09:23 #8 Tappers Dad vbmenu_register("postmenu_3202898", true);
Instead of being 'just another number' I could order a Personal Title and help support PPRuNe

Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Bridgwater
Posts: 64


Whats going on ?
Whats going on is the same if not worse that has been going on for the last couple of years. 30+year old aircraft being patched up and sent up !!
No thought given to the morale of the crews. If we as a family didn't get offered counselling after the Nimrod explosion 2nd September , then you can bet no one at the base did either. My son Ben loved every minute he was in the RAF but he would not have wanted to die due to a technical fault. And I know its not an isolated incident ,they are happening every day. The blue suits at Kinloss need to tell the MOD to get there fingers out and say ,Enough is Enough we are not puttting up with it any more . Spend some money get the manpower Get it sorted. You guys deserve better, than this. This government are bringing the services to its knees.


Hopefully it is plain to see I am not knocking any aircrew or ground crew at ISk. The opposite is true "You guys deserve better, than this. This government are bringing the services to its knees."

Secondly if you look back in all of my posting I don't think you will find I have said I don't have an faith in the BOI. They will I am sure do a first class job. However it doesn't stop there,
I believe they willl say no more than the families have already been told but in more technical terms.

As you are aware all aircraft were grounded following the crash for a number of days. How did they know what to check if they had no idea what happened.They didn't check the whole fleet out end to end they were looking at certain areas.
This whole thread is about how the crash and the long wait for the BOI has effected morale and "concerns among air force personnel about a range of issues concerning the Nimrod aircraft and the fleet"

There are rumours I have heard I will not post on here and I will wait for the BOI to confim or disprove them.

The following is based only on what I have heard from open sources:

The crew reported a bomb-bay fire in their mayday. Eye-witnesses saw a fire coming from the underside of the aircraft before it exploded. The crew had just tanked. The aircraft was over a region with hostile ground forces.

So, what are the possibilities?

1. Hostile action - was the aircraft inside the threat envelope of hostile weapon systems? No? - rule out enemy action.

2. Where was the fire reported/seen? Bomb-bay - concentrate efforts in that area.

3. What could possibly cause a fire in the bomb-bay? Ordnance - was the aircraft carrying any? No? Rule that out. Electrical? Could a purely electrical fire cause the intensity of fire reported? Possibly. Hydraulic fluid? Possible. Fuel lines? Just tanked - more likely candidate for the intense fire.

So, based on the above the things to check the rest of the fleet for immediately after the accident was narrowed down to just a few areas. It is unlikely they knew "what to check if they had no idea what happened" as they did have some idea what happened, an intense bomb-bay fire, which narrows down the possible causes. Exactly what happened is left to the long-term investigation by the BOI, but the tempo of ops meant that the rest of the fleet needing checking immediately for any obvious signs of the cause.

I am in the camp that await the findings of the BOI to see what they assess the cause of this tragic accident to be. Like others here, I know some of the members and trust them to to their up most in order to find the cause.

MadMark!!! :mad:

Very good Mad Mark, you should have been involved with the Concorde incident. You would have had BA flying them again next day.

(1) Engine fire
(2) Check all pipes in area
(3) If all OK, lets go.

Sorry, never thought that the problem was caused by an exploding tyre.

DV

DV, a bit harsh. Mad mark is making the point that he is waiting for the definitive from the BoI. He was explaining how the Investigators were directed to certain checks after the crash. I have not read open source, that the crew reported a bomb bay fire. I also have it on good authority that the incident was witnessed by a Harrier pilot, he too would have given information to the BoI. The checks that were carried out immediately afterwards revealed damage in AAR pipes to other Nimrod aircraft.


Apologies. Edited IAW comments below. To clarify, these are recommendations from the accident.

MODIFICATIONS TO CONCORDE
It was decided that the main cause of the accident was the ignition of the kerosene flowing from a massive rupture in a fuel tank caused by debris hitting the underside of the tank. After researching the possibilities for shielding the tanks the best source of protection was found to be lining the insides of certain tanks with kevlar-rubber panels.

link

http://www.open2.net/forensic_engine...dvances_13.htm

Sorry Nige you've got that wrong. Concorde had a ruptured fuel tank, caused by a burst tyre, other damage to the undercarriage also occurred. I believe the igntion source was not conclusively proved, but was thought to be arcing from damaged wiring in the undercarriage bay. The aircraft did not explode before hitting the ground. The crew could not maintain altitude and airspeed given the state of the aircraft and the engines.

S_H

Fin1012. Here, here.
You put it beautifully. Nice to see someone TO THE POINT. And appropriate.

As you see, the thread is devolving into Concorde insignificance now....

Betty S: No it is not really. Just trying to show that in the "correct world" of accident investigation we treat the cause not the effect. Condorde was shown as an example of how the process should be carried out. If XV230 had come down over Elgin or Nairn, we would be going the same way with Nimrod.

DV

The AF Concorde report failed to report with any clarity that:

1. The Commander commenced the take-off with the aircraft outside Perf A limits. According to Concorde experts who have completed performance calculations using available data, even if marginally over MTOW, it was at least 5 tonne over RTOW....
2. The FE shut down an engine which was still producing thrust without having been ordered to do so. From that moment they were doomed.

Sorry, I digress. But the Concorde accident report is NOT a good model to consider.

If the cause of the Nimrod accident is established as having been caused by a fuel fire in the bomb bay, surely thee must be immediate flight restrictions, thorough fleet inspection, and, if necessary, appropriate modification of all other Nimrods.

I just hope the BoI's Accident Report isn't 'modified' by the airships...:mad:

As laboratoryqueen and I know we were informed officially of a fuel leak on XV230.
THIS TROUBLES ME>

Nimrod Aircraft
Sir Nicholas Winterton: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence how
many fuel leaks have been reported on Nimrod MR2 R1 aircraft in the last
six months; and if he will make a statement. [134919]


8 May 2007 : Column 66W

Mr. Ingram: Between the period 1 October 2006 and 31 March 2007 a total
of 25 fuel leaks were reported on Nimrod MR2 and R1 aircraft. A fuel
leak is defined as any leakage of fuel from aircraft couplings, pipes or
fuel tanks. These did not compromise the safety of the aircraft and
were rectified under normal maintenance procedures.

Sir Nicholas Winterton: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence
whether (a) the current air-to-air refuelling system will be replaced and
(b) the single skin fuel pipes will be replaced by double skin fuel pipes
as part of the Nimrod MR2 R1 aircraft refurbishment programme. [134920]

Mr. Ingram: The MR2 and the R1 are two separate variants of the Nimrod
aircraft. There are no current plans to refurbish the MR2 fleet before
it is replaced by the Nimrod MRA4 aircraft. No decisions have yet been
taken on whether the R1 platform will carry the replacement for the
current mission system, and whether the R1 fleet will be refurbished. The
air-to-air refuelling system on MRA4 is an almost entirely new design
and built with only a small number of components retained from MR2 which
will be re-furbished. Jacketed fuel pipes will be used selectively
where it is judged to be necessary and all its fuel pipes will be newly
manufactured.

Kapton Wiring
 

Is Kapton wiring used in the Nimrod Yellowgate system?

DV

This should be interesting! TD, I hope you're sitting comfortably Sir!!
Kind Regards
TSM

why?
Kapton isn't a problem unless it gets contaminated, chaffed or dripped on by oil fuel etc.

DV you should look here as there is some discussion on Kapton wiring in the Nimrod.

I would like a definitive answer once and for all.
Does the Nimrod MR2 contain any Kapton wiring or not .
Only last time I spoke about it I was told it didn't.

I would have thought post #4 on the above link makes it quite clear.

In any case, so what? Are you trying to formulate a theory in case the BoI misses it?

SWR111 powerpoint presentation re Kapton - if you're interested.

http://www.iasa-intl.com/uploads/ELE...res%5B1%5D.ppt

Nimrods and Kapton
 

This is also interesting. Note the Nimrod reference.

http://www.iasa.com.au/folders/sr111/ual965/ual965.html

Dont know how reliable it is but it is from the same organisation as the powerpoint.

FJJP
I am doing no more than the all those that posted on the thread
Nimrod crash in Afghanistan Tech/Info/Discussion (NOT condolences)
Just asking questions, all I want is a yes or no from someone qualified to know.