The reaction of the British captives to the Iranians
 

Firstly, I would say that, no, I do not KNOW how I would react when put in the same situation as these sailors and marines and I don't start the thread in an attempt to bash or belittle them.

At the same time though I have to say that I am surprised that not one of them refused to participate in the Iranian's pathetic attempts to embarrass both them and the UK as a nation. None of them refused a change of clothes in order to stay in their own uniform, nor refused to wear a scarf (!) nor refused to acknowledge that they believed themselves to be acting properly in the execution of their duties.

I found the captain's (I think) conversation with Ahmedinejad particularly obsequious and not befitting a British serviceman being held against his and his country's will.

I honestly don't think that it is wrong to expect some gumption sometimes-at least form the more senior guys. I just found watching the news bulletins a bit embarrassing.

Oh how bloody precious,

If you think you found it embarrassing, sat in your comfy chair, horlicks in hand pontificating in such an uncomfortable manner imagine how bloody awful it must have been for each one of those brave folk knowing their only hope of freedom was to play along with this feckin circus :}

JHFC words almost fail me:ugh:

Set18, with the greatest of respect you have absolutely no idea what the captives were told or how they were treated. Therefore your opinion makes no sense..

Please understand that the day to day reality of captives in this situation is created by their captors, even down to when its day and night.

There are dozens of scenarios where the captives could be made to sing like canaries, for example, they may have been told that the British Government had made full admissions about their culpability, apologised to Iran and begged it's forgiveness.

They could have been told that Britain had abandoned and disowned them and that they were facing twenty year jail terms.

They could have been told that the British had rioted in support of the Iranians and Blair had resigned in disgrace over the matter.

There is an almost endless set of such scenarios, and thats without any physical coercion.....and now I'll shut up.

Trying to be slightly less emotional (but understandably so), unless you are familiar with Conduct after Capture or Resistance to Interrogation techniques, it's probably better not to comment at all on those matters. Regardless of what training these personnel had or had not received, those in the know realize exactly what they are going through and why they are behaving the way they are. Just accept it and don't be a Sun reader.

If only ....
 

.... Blair had resigned in disgrace over the matter.

That's probably what they had just been told to make them react as they did when they were filmed cheering and hugging each other!

More seriously, very glad they are to be freed and very amused by Blair's obvious discomfiture outside No 10.

Jack

I've been after some new threads for a few weeks now, yes I am jealous. Maybe I'm in the wrong job.....

PS

Set,
I've often gone through what they may have done in my mind but the bottom line is this - WTF do I know! I wasn't there. I believe their position at the time was that when captured they were facing an enemy better armed and equipped and there is no disgrace in surrendering in that situation. And when in captivity, they may have decided to do everything possible not to further inflame the situation. Remember they were not POW's - This one had to be handled by the diplomats. In my opinion they all handled the whole sorry affair with professionalism and dignity. :ok:
PS - I think your posting is a wee bit unfair and abraisive

Well, I did start by saying that I was not condemning these people.

I DO have a lot of R to I training, thank you. I have also served for a long times in the Middle East and have encountered the Arab "hospitality" along the way.
I do accept everything that contributors have said about what they might have been told; SO DO THEY...I remain disappointed than none of them refused to capitulate. Servicemen and women are told in no uncertain terms about what awaits them when they go to that part of the world.
I would have thought that even a basic knowledge of current affairs would have told these guys that there was nothing that the Iranians could have done to them without incurring the world and his wife's ire. I would have thought that this might have convinced them of the unlikelihood of it occurring.

So, Sledomfitforpurpose and Tam, I am not "pontificating" or "Sitting in my comfy chair" I have been there, many times as it happens. This is a military forum. I have been in several scenarios that could be judged to be more dangerous than theirs. Admittedly, never with their particular outcome, but very dangerous nonetheless. I have never read the Sun (I do sometimes look at the pictures though!)

Two's in makes an excellent point.

Namely that you have little or no idea of what you're talking about.

I hope that you are journo filth fishing for something to self justify your continued use of the planets oxygen. If you are in the military then please avail yourself of the mess Webley.

Resisting your captors for no reason other than some armchair warrior wants you to make them feel better by association is, like you, stupid.

Who the fcuk are you to decide what is befitting behaviour for someone in a situation you freely admit to knowing nothing about. You're not even sure of the rank of one of them in question.

If you know nothing, say nothing.

Yes Altenhick, to the untrained eye, my post may have looked a little rough around the neck. Sorry if I offended you, but I'm still looking for some new threads!

PS

Well lets do the scores shall we? Deaths -nil. Wars started - nil. Detained personnel on the way home - 15. Countries with lightly-miffed pride - 1. Probably the best result we could hope for in the situation. Until the facts become clearer, it is premature and, frankly, offensive to start bandying about blame either at the party or,as some have done, those in theatre in support.

Im immensely relieved that we've got those sailors and marines out, and without firing a shot either. Could have gone much, much worse...

Lets just hope that the RN's Rules of Engagement, and the boundary definition of Irans waters, are clarified to try and avoid this in the future...

Our lads (and girly) are free and come home with a Borat suit and GLC tracksuit each. That really is a gift to the West.

Fantastic news that they're out and looking forward to the debrief. Hopefully they weren't treated quite as badly as last time. They all have a great bar story to tell and the Lt and Capt have an excuse to wear terylene in the Mess.

:ok:

Not yet.

BBC: ......The Foreign Office confirmed on Wednesday night that the crew were in good health, but were "still with the Iranians". They are expected to be formally handed over to the British embassy early on Thursday.

How do we know they were not instructed - if held as 'guests' of the Iranians because of some eventuality - to act as pleasant as possible. Surely (as we are not at war with Iran) it would make sense to do anything possible to avoid doing anything to inflame the situation? For themselves at least it would make sense to show good manners....for the country and the situation in that part of the world at the moment and with respect to all the other services having to operate in that area it wouldn't be the wisest move to cause things to kick off would it?

Nice image isn't it - the stoic Tommy / Jack Tar whatever, bloodied and bandaged refusing to play the part in the Nazi propaganda - marching into captivity unbowed and giving a surreptitious victory sign....

The reality is winding up the Iranians isn't clever and we live in times where the enemy is not necessarily a guy in a black shirt sporting a swastika.

It's long past 'Don't tell them Pike' unfortunately and a little more cleverness is needed. I'm glad they are going back and safe.

Iran's Diplomatic Coup:
 

In the eyes of the world nothing short of brilliant. The Iranians seem to have embraced "absit invidia" which in diplomatic speak amounts to Iran ten United Kingdom zero.

James

15 guys and gals doing their thankless job released - Fantastic. Who cares about the politics! or the propaganda etc.... Only the press seem to.


Full Stop.

What utter cr@p Mr Leite! No apology forthcoming from Britain and Iran realised they couldn't justify detaining these fifteen sailors any longer.

Let it lie....

The UK is not at war with Iran, it is not even, at a national level, in conflict with Iran.

Iran is, at many levels, in conflict within itself. Whilst the Revolutionary Guard and the religious fundamentalists ma wish conflict, the rest do not. Strangely, a recent poll showed more in Iran in favour of the USA than in Egypt, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia etc...

The facile may be believe we lost face, the reports from inside even Iran I have seen show that even their own populace show we have not, they blame their own extremists.

I repeat, let it lie, especially in response to trolls.....

BBC: British sailors on their way home

The 15 Royal Navy crew held captive by Iran are flying home after being freed by President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad as a "gift" to the UK. They left Tehran Airport at about 0800 local time (0530 BST) on a British Airways flight bound for Heathrow.

"In the eyes of the world nothing short of brilliant"
I just don't see that. Far from it, I see Iran as the loser in this whole episode.
If simply capturing innocents, parading them around till you reach some point of diminishing return and then outfitting them in off the rack suits (where's the tie btw) is brilliant, then we need to review definitions.
It can only get worse from here if the detained arrive back home with some nasty stories of their time as guests of the state.....
I would be interested in why you think it was brilliant as I truly don't understand why you view it that way.
ORAC
I believe some degree of the population (here and in the UK)truly believe it was a victory for Iran because the UK didn't assume a more muscular posture. Not simply trolling, not even in favor of Iran.

Set 18,
I can understand your childlike (Boys Own) inquisitive nature and without being rude we all too have asked many of the questions that you ask and from a quiet personal perspective review and critique all of the news media footage.
But if a Serving person having attended some of the excellent courses on offer to us Service individuals you will also be aware that ANY discussion on this subject may place those that heaven forbid maybe in this situation in the future at risk.
If your thirst for knowledge is a military one, then best book yourself on a refresher course as I am sure that those involved with the debrief will do a thorough task and extract all of the information that will inform both policy and procedures for future captives.
Be careful of the 'Beadwindow' my friend and suggest 'Zip Lip'!

SET - the purpose of RTI is to prevent useful information being acquired by the enemy. Twenty-four hours is the accepted critical period.

The RN and RM captives were not engaged on an offensive op - they were carrying out a UN sanctioned inspection. HMS Cornwall was not engaged on any active mission against Iran, so the captives had nothing to give away.

Hence any answers they gave to questioning could not be of any risk to their shipmates, so there was no need to resist. What had they to gain by being un-cooperative? Nothing, except the possibility of prolonging the misery for all.

And yes, I do know what I'm talking about, and I'm very glad I never did it for real.

Release
 

Of course, they have many reasons to celebrate after their ordeal...now their pay can re-start.....:E

parabellum;

You either dont know about or you have forgotten about the spyship USS Pueblo. The North Koreans did not bother to justify keeping the american interlopers locked up for a long time and considering the 15 were where they should not have been then they must be considered as interlopers too. The Iranians could have just as easily done the same thing.

West Coast;

Iran's actions imply " we are the good guys " and the others " the bad guys " At no cost to themselves the world sits up and takes notice. Maybe not brilliant but very very close to it.

James.

More importantly we do not know what psychological pressures they were exposed to in order to co-operate. For all we know just off camera there was a squad of unshaven IRGC types brandishing rifles and looking menacing. I know how the IRGC treated the 04 captives, and frankly I think they probably applied similar pressures this time round. Given the choice between co-operating, or playing the hero and maybe facing a life sentence or execution (both possibilities based on what the regime said early on), then I know what I'd do.
I find the idea of some armchair admirals on the internet pontificating about "how I'd have done it" contributes as much to this debate as a chocolate kettle. We weren't there, we don't know what pressures they were under and until we do we cannot criticise their actions without knowing the whole story.

James,

Any chance you can tap dance as well?

..Just as well they haven't got any luggage then...

Set - your nice and fluffy first diatribe does in no way detract or negate the utter cr4p that you have spouted since.

I don't care if you are Bravo 2 Zero/007 whoever. These 15 were not old hand SF types. Initially, I too wondered why they were being so "we love Iran" in their last interview. Then stop and think. Until I touched down in good ol' blighty I would have said nothing - in case the sneeky buggers changed the rules.

As said, what pressure were they put under to say all this. It was cleverly stage managed by Iran, you have to admit, but at least they are almost home.

Of course, waves of attack helicopters/missiles and threats of war would have been so much better.

Let us not forget all the images out of the middle east of hostages never seen again, those filmed being killed and published for the whole ME to see.

These 15 were doing boarding patrols, which, in my mind, is clearly very risky but not a role that I would refrain from talking about slightly. Souting abou tthe amount of Daewoo's on board would not have compromised the UK nation.

Think on fella. Sorry they disappointed you. You clearly have no self preservation.

:ugh:

Set,
I don't care a jot that they did or said what they did. As far as I'm concerned, they did the right thing and remained safe and well and didn't have the crap beaten out of them for being 'rufty-tufty' and all that 'name, rank, number etc' rubbish

To all 15 I send my very best wishes and congratulate them all on keeping their cool and not going off on one. Well done to you all.
TSM

set

quote 'None of them refused a change of clothes in order to stay in their own uniform':ugh:

How do you know that the Embassy didn't provide the clothes? Might be a good idea after wearing the same ones for nearly 2 weeks and then having travel in them.

Safe trip home lads and lass.:D

Sharmine

I did a some RTI training whilst I was in the Marines, so at least a few of the the 15 'may' have known some of the procedure. However as has been pointed out in previous posts I doubt the resitance to white noise, stress positions and worse would have been waranted. It was a UN affair, Iran are not our enemies yet and I don't think that main aim was to play along and get out. The facts will come out and I'm sure that our poeple will be fully justified in what they did.

The interviews were with a cheeky grin fixed on the face and the letters were copied word for word with all of the bad grammer intact. I think it is obvious to anyone in the west that these were forced confessions which just makes Iran look worse.

SET I think you should have waited untill after the debriefs and the official news releases before questioning our forces integrity. And since when has refusing to strip down to nothing and get into a boiler suit etc been RTI? If your captors want you to were 1 DMS, 1 flip flop and a wedding dress you can either do it or have it done to you.

I hope that the Captains career wont be shadowed by this mess, it's happened many times when an excellent officers career can be stalled through circumstances that were of no fault of his own.

I lived in Tehran for two years. Bl**dy awful place, but very hospitable people. All 15 captives were relative youngsters and, after the initial man-handling of capture, I'd imagine they were treated very well, as temporary guests. That's what they've told us and I don't think you'll hear differently when they get their feet on the ground.

Glad they are all safe and on they way home. Good Work lads and lasses! And to all those muppets bleating on about RTI and saying they should have resisted more, WTF would you have done when asked to "Say this or we will gang rape the lass........."

There are any number of things that could have been done to them, its not like they were out to assassinate someone or blow up a ball bearing factory now is it??

They performed what they had to do as a unit to get themselves all home safe. Job done.

Now stop your fecking moaning and SUPPORT OUR TROOPS, oh and as for that spam journo that was gobbing off about our troops lack of morale and balls etc, one name......Johnson Beharry (scuse any mis-spelling no slur intended). You think the recipients of the VC has no balls??

James Leite

At the risk of biting - you either have a lot of inside info not available to the rest of us, or more likely you are talking out of your derriere.

Your last post:


Ifs and buts......

Who said the UK Forces were where they should not have been i.e. inside Iranian territorial waters?

Oh my mistake, Iran said it, so it must be true :ugh:

The Iranians could have just as easily done the same thing as you say i.e. keep them hostage for much longer, but hey, they didn't.

Why?

Us mere mortals will never know the real reason... posturing by both the Iranian State and to an extent B-liar will prevent any story from coming out that can be believed 100%.

The fact is they have been released.

No military threats from the UK needed. Was that a weak approach??

I doubt it, what could we realistically threaten Iran with? We are in several theatres of operations at the moment, our forces are stretched, how could we possibly have backed up any military threat with any degree of menace?

To threaten someone without the ability to back it up would be foolish.

We hear stories every other week about how are forces are being stretched - do you honestly think that Iran is such a back-water that they are not aware of this?

B-liar and his cronies have seen to our military demise and continue to do so - this episode should be a salient lesson to Tone that if he wants to play with the big boys he needs to invest in our forces - but I wager that will not happen.

Rest assured that whilst diplomatic channels were being used, UK assets would have been trying to collate intelligence on exactly where and how the sailors were being held. If this had become a protracted affair, it is more likely that clandestine methods would have been used instead of conventional - but the very nature of the word clandestine means we will never know what was going on in the background.

Or would you rather we just barged in willy nilly and got lots of our forces killed in a half cock attempt at a rescue?

Some countries would shoot first ask questions later, but that is not, and never has been the UK style.

The reason we still use that style is because it works.

So, the guys (and gal) have landed at Heathrow what, honestly, has Iran gained from this?

How can you even think that the world now thinks Iran are the 'good guys'??

Best you get back to cloud cuckoo land - I for one am just glad that they have returned safely - that fact alone is, in my books, a damned good result.

James Leite......

Your 1st post on this thread should have been preceeded with the letters IMHO ('In My Humble Opinion' if anyone is unsure!)!


And, in MY humble opinion, the reality is the complete opposite of what you have stated. Iran can play its games and show us how good it is at theatrics all it likes, but what they pulled with nabbing our personnel sure doesn't help them reduce the likelihood of getting whacked by the US and its buddies sometime in the future! :ooh:

So was it a 'victory'?? IMHO, thier leadership just pi**ed the West off a little more! They got 2 new boats though, so not a complete waste of time! I wonder if we'l get those back?! :hmm:

Sense1

Maybe Iran will sell them to Scotland if the UK splits up.... be about right numbers for the Scottish Navy!!

(That's one to run, one to keep for spares)

A previous thread directed the reader to flashearth.com Using the Mocrosoft vitual earth we were able to get a very good sat. photo of the waterway. The photo now seems to have been degraded in the area in dispute.

Which is exactly the argument those labelled (among other things) "old fuddy duddy reactionaries" were making when women first demanded to be put into positions in the military that might put them in harm's way.

My post a few days ago on the Jessica Starmer thread asking whether some might draw this very conclusion was promptly deleted by the moderator on the main board.

Is it a subject no one dares discuss?

A bit of a proverbial 'elephant in the room' everyone chooses to ignore?

Gents (and ladies), don't shoot the messenger. Let's discuss the issue rather than abuse me as the three or four respondents to my original post did. I know that if I was the senior officer of a group of service personnel taken by a protagonist (note that word) in circumstances similar to those where the 15 were taken, the extra burden of having a female among my 'men' would be one I'd rather do without - for the very reason quoted above.

It might not be politically correct, but in my case, it's a fact, and I'd be a liar if I tried to say otherwise.

The lads and lassy have done a great job, all back safe ...Perfick!:D :D :D
To all of the armchair SF people who sit there claiming they could be sat on razor blades and have their nuts sawn off with a nail file before they even whimpered.............. I dont think so:= :=
Please remember there is a lot more goes on to the breakdown of the human psyche than traditional whipping and racking. I was on an aircraft two days ago (as pax) and watched the Manchurian Candidate. Spoooky!