Canberra hours
 

Just played golf with my old Canberra Nav. He's got 9500 hours on the Queen of the skies ( well he would think that wouldn't he?). Got us talking about who has the most both front and back now that she is retired. Terry Cairns? Any bids for the most on EE's finest?

India retired theirs this month, too. And may have a contender for most hours, I would guess!

Shall we restrict it to the UK?

Charlie Ole? Particularly when you consider he had a few years away from the Queen of the Skies. Don't think he had anywhere near 9500 'berra hours mind. But at least his were in the both the front and back - not bad as a nav ... ;)

Jackonicko,

The IAF Canberra's are not retired yet - May is supposed to be the official date.

The pilot I have found with the most number of hours in the Canberra has about 4500 hrs. Most early IAF Canberra pilots came to the type from either a fighter (usually Vampire/Ouragan/Hunter) tour or a multi tour (Dakota/C-119 Packet). First tourists were only taken on in the late 70s (direct from Hunter OCU/Iskra/Kiran). Some of IAF pilot had many hours on other types before the Canberra and didn't have as many Canberra hours as they could have if they had been first tourists. My father's FIS (equivalent to CFS in the RAF) instructor was operational in the Spitfire, Tempest, Vampire and then Canberra. Interestingly a large part of the early cadre came from B-24 Liberators.

The other factor is that the IAF doesn't have the RAF's equivalent of a "flying" cadre. Its up or out - you can't be a senior (in years) officer and be a line pilot on a flying squadron. Most people's flying was done by the time they are Squadron Leaders (rank inflation has now raised that to Wing Cdr) which was about 16-18 years in service. You continued to fly after that only if you were CO/OC Flying/Station Commander but that meant that you did a lot of ground postings in between.

The pilot with the most hours was a first tourist on the Canberra - did his entire career on Canberras as a line pilot/flight commander/unit commander and retired as Wg Cdr after 30 years service. In between he did a tour as an instructor on Kirans. But that career profile is unusual - he was also lucky/unlucky enough to be caught in the rank inflation where the COs of multi squadrons are now Gp Capts! He was acting Gp Capt when he retired.

Trying to figure out who the navigator with most hours was - but I would think that would be about the same number of hours too.

Worf

anybody got WK127 in their log book?

Canberra Nav hours
 

Try Tony "Dusty" Miller, he's been flying them almost continously since 1967.
As for being retired, we have a very full season ahead with Canberra B2/6 WK163 with displays in the UK, Holland and Belgium as well as celebrating the 50th anniversary of her breaking the world alltitude record 28th August 1957 70,310 ft.

WK127 - the fabulous TT18.

I can feel an assymetric sock story rearing it's head....:{

We've got the whole front of WK127 sat on our parade square....but no more information!

Get a room ! :p

ciderman
Terry Cairns would definitely be in the fore for most hours on Cranberries. But, does anybody here remember Sqn Ldr Bruce Bull? Surely he must be up there amongst the top few.

.

While we are at it - how about also the one/s with experience on the most variants of the Canberra ? And how many variants were there?

I remember Bruce Bull and flew with him once from St Mawgan to Aldergrove probably in '72. Recollections a bit hazy but I think he had the most hours back then....4000?

Worked with Bruce in the early nineties, what a gent.

I seem to remember he was known as "Rock ar*e" on account of the number of hours spent in the right hand seat of T4's. Last heard of at RAE Llanbedr flying meteors.

He worked at Trent at Cranfield (later taken over by Cabair) teaching CPL/IR students having previously been at Oxford. As I remember, they finally retired him around 1992 by which time he was in his late 60's. Full of enthusiasm, a great instructor and of course his war stories really were war stories.

Hi Guys,

The gent I was referrrin to with the huge number of hours is Bryan Stoat, ( 213 and others and laterally FRADU). It would be nice to get Terry Cairns to tell us how many he actually has. I remember my trap rides with Terry, usually a bundle of laughs after the serious stuff was done. Used to get awfully pissed with him at Raynham too!! Yes I, do remember Bruce Bull, he was on 7 Sqn at St Mawgan. Alex Wedderburn must have a few in the back of the old girl too.

Cheers.

How many variants?

What - in proper UK service?

I make it 23 with their own 'variant designation', though there were others - like the Elint B2s used by 192 Squadron, the recce-modded B2s used on Op Robin, etc. the B2 and B6 samplers, etc.

B2 - original bomber
B2T - one off with Decca, last with 100 Squadron?
B2E - ex-Boscombe, once fitted out for single seat operation (WK162, or 164?)
PR3 - original recce, usually two crew but three ejection seats???
T4 - trainer
B6 - bomber with integral wing tanks triple breech starters, bigger Avons, etc.
B6(BS) - as above with Blue Shadow, mainly for 109/139 Sqns, designation also used by B6 Mod
B6 Mod - four modified B6/B6(BS) for 51 Squadron for Elint role. Additional tail warning receivers, Elint antennas in nose, which initially followed 'normal' contours, before addition of T11 type nose, and finally extended rounded nose radome. Blue Shadow fitted. Three crew.
B(I)6 - as B6 with provision for gun pack in rear part of bomb bay, underwing hardpoints, LABS gear as standard. Three crew???
PR7 - recce version with integral wing tanks triple breech starters, bigger Avons, etc. Usually two crew but three ejection seats???
B(I)8 - interdictor/strike derivative of B6 with offset 'fighter type canopy' (non-opening) nav on rumble seat for take off, or sideways facing at forward plotting table or prone in the nose. Provision for gun pack (4 x 20mm Hispano) in rear part of bomb bay, underwing hardpoints, LABS gear as standard.
PR9 - recce version with opening offset 'fighter type canopy' for access, nav on ejection seat in front of pilot in sideways hinged nose, with frangible panel above. Powered ailerons.
U10 - drone conversion of B2
T11 - crew trainer for Javelin crews converted from B2, with AI radar in extended conical nose, long pitot boom on port wingtip. Did it have dual controls and an ejection seat for both pilots???
D14 - drone conversion of B2 with PR9 type powered controls
B15 - Converted B6 for the Akrotiri Strike Wing and 45 Squadron, Decca Doppler, underwing hardpoints for unguided rockets, and later Nord AS30 ASMs.
E15 - calibration conversion of B15
B16 - Converted B6 for the Akrotiri Strike Wing with Blue Shadow SLAR. (Did this supplant one of the rear crew ejection seats? Was this a two-crew aircraft?)
T17 - EW training conversion of B2, extended bulbous nose and numerous antenna fairings, scoops, etc. Long pitot boom on port wingtip.
T17A - Further conversion of T17, with new kit (externally identifiable by new underwing blade antennas
TT18 - Target towing conversion of B2 with underwing Rushton winches, extra window in starboard fuselage to allow nav to see starboard winch.
T19 - Silent target conversion of T11 with radar replaced by 'Blue Circle'.
T22 - Conversion of PR.Mk 7 with Buccaneer radar in extended nose. Intended as Buccaneer radar trainer for observers, but used as silent target.

Plus the SC9 modification of PR9, the B2TT a B2 with single hook on the back and WK163 designated B2/6 to add to the list.

B2TT is an unofficial designation, as is B2/6. 163 was a B2 - officially - later becoming a B6.

The SC9 was never in 'proper' service - otherwise you'd add the A1 (four prototypes) and B5.

And wasn't SC9 a Shorts company designation, and not a variant designator?

rumble seat

Wasn't it a Rhumbold seat? It doesnt really matter all these years - I left the Canberra force in 1982 but I was just curious. Happy to be corrected.

WK163 is officially designated B Mk 2/6 in the aircraft documents both civil and military (F700) and all the approvals and releases are for that mark of Canberra from the day it was modified at Pershore. It was never in "proper service" with the RAF so does that make it a non existant type?
The SC9 designation for XH132 must list as a sub type as it retained it's military seriel during all of it's life. Incidentally the PR9 has a powered rudder as well as ailerons.

It was. Sorry. My brain was as rusty as my own Canberra experience - which, coincidentally, dates back to 1979-82.

I was chatting to my Dad about Canberras, and find that between us we have the A1, B2, PR3, T4, B6, PR7, B(I)8, E15, T17, TT18 and T19 in our logbooks.

Jacko
Really impressed by your listing of Canberra variants, good one. If that was all from memory - respect. :)

There's an illustrated list of all basic Canberra types here for those interested. (A second page has an illustrated list of all foreign users).

PR.3 had two seats. Only two complete examples of this variant remain - WE139 at Hendon and WF922 at the Midland Air museum, Coventry Airport. Unlike WE139 at Hendon, WF922 is fully accessible as well as having working hyd/elect systems, cameras and a 'winking'n'blinking' cockpit. Well worth a visit.

One point, the B(I)8 wasn't a derviative of the B(I)6. B(I)6 was produced as an intrim variant because B(I)8 production took so long getting underway.

Agree with you regarding scorpion63's additions. If you count those you'd have to add all the myriad individual variations operated by the Establishments. And yes, SC9 was a Shorts designation.

.

Scorpion,

Sorry, I wasn't clear enough.

Firstly, the SC9 designation is not a mark number. SC isn't a role designator like B-for-bomber or PR-for-Photo Reconnaissance. It was the SC9 in just the same way that the Belfast C.Mk 1 was the SC5. Nor was the aircraft ever in 'proper UK service' (by which I meant RAF/RN and not MoD(PE) or RAE/RRE).

:8 :8 :8 :8 :8 :8 :8 :8 :8 :8

Secondly, there was no MAR for a B.Mk 2/6 meaning that the designation is unofficial, in just the way that the B6RC and PR16 designations sometimes applied to 51's Canberras (and seen on some of the relevant record cards) were unofficial, and in just the way that the RAE/RRE B6/8 hybrids probably laboured under a host of unofficial and semi-official designations. And again, WK163 was never in 'proper UK service'.

Beeayeeight,

It was from memory, because my Canberra books are in my archive/store at the mo, which is why I couldn't recall or look up how many seats the PR3 had, nor the B(I)6, nor the PR7, nor the B6BS, nor the B16.

It might also explain how I missed an RAF Canberra variant designation! (Wonder if anyone will spot it?)

I thought that the B(I)8 was derived from the B6 (big Avons, integral tanks, etc), but with the new nose and gunpack. I hadn't meant to suggest that it was derived from the B(I)6.

I s'pose you could argue that the 6, 7 and 8 were all derived from the B5, in that the B5 was the first with big Avons and integral tanks.....

RAE (MOD(PE)) Canberra line up

http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/att...hmentid=109932

One of WK163

http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/att...hmentid=109933

Jacko, how bizarre - I did a double take when i read your post as I could have written it myself (my father and I also share similar experience).

I had the pleasure of serving with 100 Sqn 80-83. Logbook monthly summaries were a pain though with all those different marks,

Canberra B15/16
 

Both marks had 3 man crews, Cyprus and Tengah, also 213 in Germany.

However B16 only had 2 ejection seats, and the observers who sat on the Rhumbold seats invariably were the larger / taller Sqn members

Thanks Bob,

Just found a loose page from an AP4326L in a pile of stuff awaiting filing, and it says that the T11 had a crew of four - instructor, nav instructor and two pupil navs or one pupil nav, and one pupil pilot.

Presumably it had four bang seats?

Did it have dual controls? And radar displays front and back?

Can any of our older Canberra chaps confirm that early T4s didn't have ejection seats?

In his piece "Flying on 527 Squadron" at

http://www.rafwatton.info/album/swift/swift1.html

Ralph Swift said:

"The Watton Canberra‘s were B2’s and had ejection seats for the single pilot and both navigators but in both cases it was a requirement to get rid of an explosive canopy prior to ejection. In the case of the training Canberra, the T4, although the navigators had ejection seats the cramped cockpit for both pilots did not afford enough room for ejection seats and the only way out for the pilots was to slide the right hand seat backward, open the side door in the fuselage and bale out conventionally. In a situation that required the pilots to abandon the aircraft it was a very hit and miss affair and when the Canberra later had a problem with runaway tailplane actuators I think it proved impossible to get out in the time available."

Also, in an August 1994 copy of 'Aeroplane Monthly', Flt Lt Mike Retallack, describing going through Canberra Conversion with 231 OCU in 1955 at Bassingbourn, said:

"The aircraft for this first flight was a T.4 trainer, which at that time did not have ejection seats for the pilots, so it was much easier to get in compared with later versions, especially for the navigator, as the instructor's seat slid along rails."

T.4 lack of ejection seats
 

All IAF T.4s did not have ejection seats for the pilots. They had one for the navigator. If you go to the Bharat-rakshak site and search for "canberra book" you will be able to get my article on IAF Canberra trainer versions with details.

Seems likely the IAF T.4s were based on the early RAF T.4 design (unlikely the IAF had the ejections seats that were part of the base design taken out)
Worf

I never ejected from a Canberra but twice had the canopy jettison circuit fire - luckily both on the ground. Both incidents were finger trouble I hasten to add.

Interesting that the early T4s did not have bang seats for the pilots. The thread reminded me of the rather Heath Robinson arrangement of having to swing the right hand pilots seat forward so that I could climb into the back hole that was the bak of the Canberra trainer, and then have the seat swung back and latched into position.

Worf
Seems likely the IAF T.4s were based on the early RAF T.4 design (unlikely the IAF had the ejections seats that were part of the base design taken out)

Thanks for that Worf, have actually been to that site previously (good Canberra articles).

The IAF received the first two of their T.4s on Dec 1958 (ex-RAF diverted off contract, serials XK647 & XK650). If I read you right, this would mean that the T.4 did not have pilot's bang seats for at least 3.5 years! (Flt Lt Mike Retallack, ref to 1955 - see Jacko's post #32). And this after the prototype first flew in June 1952. That makes around six or so years of flying for T.4s without pilot's ejection seats. Or was it only some of them?

In any case, surely someone must remember that curious fact!

.

MOD(PE) Canberras
 

Could not see date of photo of MOD(PE) lineup, but during 72-75 at RAE Farnborough, we had a heavily modded B(I)8.

Used to have fun arriving at any RAF airfield on a visit, on board a T4 or B(I)6, to dismount and watch the eyes of the groundcrew widen when they realised that the cab had been modded for single crew (pilot that is :O) operation. From memory, all that was needed was the re-positioning of a couple of switches to the front end.
Incidentally, they tended to have a better nav. fit than most operational Canberras - VOR and Decca, to name 2, - in addition to the usual.

No more Canberras in military service
 

The IAF retired it's Canberras on May 11th, 2007 after 50 years of service. Photos and a report of the event can be found here
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/Im...berras-Retire/

Worf

So, how did you get four crew in a Canberra?

Just been to the National Archives, Kew looking at 15 squadron records from 1956. Canberra B2 WD980 on at least one occassion had a Captain, 1st Pilot, Plotter and Observer on board for a three hour flight (Honington to Lindholme).

4 in a Canberra
 

Easy peasy, Pilot on Ejection Seat, 2 navs in back on Ejection Seats, 4th crew member, with chest parachute, on Rhumbold Seat next to pilot, still room in nose!!!

4 in a Canberra
 

98 Sqn Cottesmore, operating E15s in the Calibration role. Airframe nos were WD944 (T4), WH981, WH983 and WJ756 - can't recall the others. Typical sortie to cal an airfield approach radar would involve the crew plus 2 Flight Checkers (1 on the Rumbold seat). Transit to the relevant airfield, land and drop off the Checkers. Cal sortie, then land, turn-round the jet and scoff the cabin-trunk sized packed lunch. Further cal sortie, land, engines running pick up of the Checkers, then RTB Rutland for Ruddles finest. 4 trips and approx 5 hours flying for the day in a Classic Jet. Halcyon days.