Sea Harrier at Falklands Anniversary
 

As I've mentioned elswhere on Pprune, & it's been suggested worth a mention here;

The only flyable ex-RN Sea Harrier, XZ 439 ( a Dunsfold development jet which did the first European AMRAAM firings at Eglin ) now owned by ex-US Marines & AV-8B Test pilot Art Nalls, has been unofficially asked to come over for the Falklands 25th Anniversary display, but despite backing from THE TOP Harrier man, is having trouble with officialdom ( sponsorship too but not such a big-hitting snag).

Excuses go as far as lack of glide range over London for a single engine jet ! I happen to have photographed the 50th Anniversary Battle of Britain flypast by a formation of Merlin & Griffon Spitfires, among many others - how does the engine reliability there compare to a Pegasus, I ask you with a lot more knowledge than I ?!

Apparently the Red Arrows Hawks are acceptable, as they glide better ( I know the glide ratio of a Harrier is interesting ! ) but still seems a poor place to be gliding, with maybe Hyde Park or the Surpentine as options...

This seems shameful to me, how can one have a Falklands Anniversary without a Seajet ?

Maybe sour grapes from the Navy as they didn't have the brains to keep one for the Historic Flight, ( I know there's an FA2 in storage ) and the only example of a pretend FRS1 on show at Yeovilton is a bodged-up GR3...

Although I am an engineer and not a pilot I do seem to remember, many moons ago, a Harrier landing in a building site in the centre of London. Have the rules changed since then?

Absolutely spot on . That was Tom Leckey- Thompson in a GR1 in the late 60's by St.Pancras Station during the Trans Atlantic Air Races.

'elf 'n safety has come on a bit since the 60s, don't forget. The insurance claim for a crash in central London could be huge.

Reminds me of the old N.I. joke.
"Centre of Belfast Nuked- 70,000 pounds worth of damage done."
Good point though.

Harrier over London
 

I'm not a pilot either, trained as a fitter before going tech' photographer for Experimental Instrumentation at Dunsfold - might sound grand but among the great people I worked with there was the odd complete git !

I think the Harrier take-off you're referring to was from St Pancras railway station at the beginning of the trans-atlantic racein 1969 or so.

By taking off & landing at the city centres ( London & New York ) the Harriers beat the Phantoms !

I have a copy of the photo at St Pancras if you should like it.

It was the old St Pancras goods yard where the British Library now stands.

I don't see that the comparative reliabilities of the engines is really a consideration, it's what you do if the engine packs up that's the important bit! IMHO the only way you'll see a Seajet in central London is a static display! The only flying Harrier I in the UK is the Qinetiq VAAC however, it doesn't look much like an FA2!
http://www.qinetiq.com/home/case_stu...Image.wide.gif

Even if you won the single engine, glide like a brick, it'll be alright over London, argument. I don't see how you would find a pilot that could be authorised to fly one. The airframe and engine are now not supported by an engineering authority either. I can't see an answer to this one in the next 2.5 months! Given the exceptional amount of work still left to do on the Vulcan it'll be a miracle if that is ready either, but fingers crossed!

Hmmmm
 

'wot about the one that "was" sitting in a hangar at Cottesmore 9 months ago??

None of the ones at Witt/Cott would be any good because of the engines. The best ones are the Culdrose Handling School jets because they have been kept in taxying condition.

Maybe someone should ask the guy who took a few of them away from here, St.Athan, a couple of years ago. He swore blind he was going to fly one:rolleyes: (He loaded a frame with a fairly low hours engine on the back of a 40 footer).

God help us:ooh:

Harrier reliability
 

In 14 years at Dunsfold, never knew a 'modern' Harrier to have an actual engine failure, except the rare fingers & thumbs swithchology snag & maybe pop surges in the hover ( recovered by Test Pilots without much effort or brown trousers )- I presume it wouldn't be nodding to Her Majesty, though that would be a nice idea & fitting salute.

Both Art Nalls & primarlily John Farley among others have glided them rather well - though starting off at 2,000 feet seems a bit challlenging !

As for Health & Safety, as Tim Brooke-Taylor once mentioned, " as long as you've got your elf !"

Why can't we just ask the Indian Navy ( nicely ) to lend us one?

or arrange a hospitality visit for their carrier ( ex - Hermes )

Indian FRS 51
 

I was waiting for someone to mention them ! At least they're Mk 1's so decent looking & more representative - but I should think the 'Sun' etc would have a field day, rightly so for a change if the RN can't get it's act together...

There is also an unofficial Sea Harrier reunion planned for 4 May details here:

An annual Sea Harrier Bash is envisioned. This will comprise an informal RV at a suitable inner London boozer on the Friday before the Army-Navy Rugby game each year. In 2007 this means that all ex-Sea Harrier pilots, Air Engineers, Freddies and Sqn Staff Officers are invited to saunter along on Friday 4th May from 1800 onward for beer, dits and similar. For the chosen location and more details please PM me or email [email protected] See you there.

Spon

I was waiting for someone to mention them ! At least they're Mk 1's so decent looking & more representative - but I should think the 'Sun' etc would have a field day, rightly so for a change if the RN can't get it's act together...

:ugh: :ugh: :ugh: :ugh:

Perhaps we wouldn't be in this situation if the Sun etc had paid more attention to the decommisioning decision. Some of us did try (with the Sea Jet thread and other means) to get the media to pay attention, but they were more interested in Z list celebs.:ugh:

SeaJet
 

Yes, I did chip in on the SeaJet thread, as well as www.harrier.org.uk
on the messages board & a wonderful contribution on the history section - 'Harrier Testing' where if nothing else there are some of my shots ( Loch Ness standard compared to modern digital stuff ) of FRS1's & 51's.

I still maintain - if you'll pardon the pun - that the FA2's could have had another update / refit at what in military terms is peanuts.

I photographed the illustrations & cockpit rig of the hoped -for original standard of the FRS2 - as then - with single piece blown bulged canopy, large Lithium wing, wingtip missile rails, glass cockpit, JTIDS etc - if only !

At least a sensible compromise, for commonality with the RAF, would have been a few Harrier 2+'s - I was told by a Navy Test Pilot they could keep up with a Bear at altitude ( though slower lower down than a SHAR ).

Once photographed a trial fit on a 2+ with 6 Amraams all on BOL countermeasures rails; the 2+ is built like a tank too, to avoid the acoustic fatigue on the aft fuselage - though the radar wasn't as good as Blue Vixen & bringing back that stores weight to a carrier was dubious.

The Navy is playing a dangerous game assuming no-one will be impolite enough to attack, bearing in mind the woefully lacking SIX type 45's ( if they don't get flogged to Saudi ) and the inevitable delays to the JSF Dave.

As related in recent books by Falklands veteran pilots, the very second hostilities are over it's back on with the cummerbunds & the Navy becomes a motor-yacht club again...

Have also tried mentioning this anniversary issue on 'RumRation' though I don't think too much of it as a website, & no luck as yet.

Maybe the 'Sun' is worth a try after all - something I never thought I'd say !

Just wait until the new CinC come to power at the end of next week- things may change...:oh:

SMT

There was a Harrier 16-ship in the BofB 50 flypast so the rules must have been changed since then (or relaxed for that event).

But surely, there wouldn't be much point in having a Sea Harrier FA2 in a Falklands flypast would there?

Anyone heard of anything else scheduled for the flypast? I believe there will be a C130K and a C130J, and the Vulcan if it flies in time (and somebody pays for it!):)

Surely the most important aircraft to have in the flypast would be the Victor K2 without which nothing else would have made it much past Lands End! Oh we haven't any of those flying either - perhaps we should just learn to live with the reality that aircraft go out of Service.:)

Victor
 

Greatest respect to the Victor, but I thought the carriers, Atlantic conveyor etc got the majority of Harriers there, the Victors helped the delivery from Ascencion, + the Nimrod & Vulcan flights etc ?

Agree the FA2 is not ideal - in a perfect world the Navy would have had the brains to keep an FRS1 in the Historic Flight - but it's toe-curlingly embarrassing to think of borrowing an Indian FRS 51 even though it'd be nice to see Hermes / Vikrant again and would make a good visit !

Also when training at Dunsfold the Indians proved very professional indeed, so presumably have a different training regime from their ' plant one in every acre' air force...

I reckon Chinook 'Bravo November' had one of the most important yet unglamourous roles of all the aircraft operating in the South Atlantic back in 1982 and its still operational, although in a slightly modified form.

Perhaps the powers that be could authorise 'BN' to be repainted to represent its 1982 paint scheme and take pride of place in the flypast.:ok:

Sods law dictates BN will be currently operating in sunnier climes................:ugh:

have heard rumours that the Vulcan won't be there?

Yes would be nice to see BN in 80's paint scheme and would be even nicer if This historically important airframe could be retired gracefully to the Museum. But am well aware of the shortage of chinooks but if more are ordered I would sugest BN gets early retirement.

Not heard anything about the Vulcan being a no-show but then to be fair, I've never seen anyone offer any suggestion as to who would be paying for it, even if it's ready to fly in time.

Nice though the flypast idea is, you have to wonder if it's going to be a tad pointless when you consider how few appropriate aircraft are likely to be available to take part. Getting a Nimrod would be a struggle, so apart from the two Hercules that are already pencilled-in, that only really leaves the helicopters - and they're a little bit busy at present as we know too well.

Given that there's the traditional flypast for Her Maj on the previous day, I wonder why they didn't combine the two events and simply add the Hercules and a couple of helicopters to the flypast on the Saturday? Oh well, whatever happens, I'm sure the TV crews will manage to miss everything in spectacular fashion:rolleyes:

Cmon, be a bit fair to us - the IAF flies ancient Fishbeds as part of its fighter fleet and even those accident rates are now down to western averages. The oldest Fishbeds are now retired, the last Flogger (MFs) are gone and so are the Foxbats. And we ran our first batch of Sukhois through their entire service life in just 8 years without a single incident.

But thank you for the compliments regarding our Naval pilots, though :) Wish we could've taken some F/A-2s after you folks did not want them, Blue Vixen + AMRAAM would be nice. Now our FRS.51 are getting (have got already, maybe) the Elta 2032 and the Derby missile, so they have a few years in them...

Slightly OT:
ISTR it was 70,000 poinds worth of improvements...

hat, coat, etc

I doubt Joe Public would know the difference between an early Shar and today's Harriers anyway. And care less...

Single Engine over London
 

The person who makes the policy is ACAS.

Recently I believe the policy was that Merlin Spits, Hurricanes and Harriers were not approved for London flypasts.

It is probably the current policy too.

Single engines etc
 

So are Griffon Spits Ok then ???!

As mentioned, I wouldn't be too optimistic about gliding a Red Arrows Hawk over London either...

Must be a recent rule, as I photographed a whole bunch of Spit's & Hurri's from the top of the Norwich Union building for the B of B Anniversary a few years ago.

Rather than get my head around posting pics here, you're welcome to a copy if interested, I'm at [email protected]

I must admit I hadn't realised there's so little participation for the Falklands effort, or the fact there's a display the day before - surely the only thing to make it worthwhile would be to have a SeaJet bow to Her Maj' ? ( I don't mean Madonna ).

I know Art Nalls with XZ439 has all the boxes ticked to re-qualify on Harrier 1 in the USA, but no doubt UK officialdom can still find a spanner to insert.

Griffon spits are apparently OK.

Bombay Duck
 

Hello BD,

please forgive my tongue-in-cheek remark about the IAF !

In fact a treasured possession was a letter complimenting some of my photo's from Captain Macadden ( Spelling ? ) , C/O of the FRS51 unit at Dunsfold.

Now I've tried to refer to it, it seems some thieving **** has had it away from my folio at a reunion !

We were all very impressed by the SHARP team, and BAe - bean-counters from other sites, not Dunsfold staff - soon found the Indians could not have the wool pulled over their eyes ! ( You may know what I'm referring to ).

I do know the flight test teams who were lucky enough to visit India reckoned the RN might learn a thing or two!

A shot of a White Tigers FRS 51 is on www.harrier.org.uk/history -scroll down to 'Harrier Testing'

In defense of the Victors contribution to the Harrier element in Corporate my log book shows I flew three UK to West Africa sorties in early April 1982 refuelling at least two Harriers, maybe three, per sortie and including some SHARs. These aircraft were then supported as they continued on to Ascension. Some were embarked there and others caught the fleet up as it steamed south I believe.There may well have been other Harrier deployments.

It is also worth remembering that both the London and Plymouth Fly pasts were lead by a Victor. It was my crews privilege to lead the Plymouth event.

Victor, flypast
 

Art Field,

I should be able to find a shot of your aircraft over London then, if you're not knee-deep in them already !

Hats off to yourself & crew...

DZ

However, what NAVAL aircraft will be present in this flypast? BTW have you seen this?

What about a (Sea Harrier) flypast over the sea? Spithead perhaps?

Seajet at Spithead
 

Better than nothing, but it's apparently down to Art with '439 or the Indians visiting in Vikrant - couldn't blame them for a wry grin...

Suppose the RN GR7 /9 aircraft could take part, though hardly the same even if 'Sun' readers didn't notice.

So, which aircraft which flew in the Falklands in 1982 is still flying today and will fly during the flypast?

Seaking Mk 4
Seaking HAS 5 (are 772 aircraft Mk5's ?)
VC 10 ?
C130 ( which variant flew in 1982)
Chinook


Thats about it. Or are there any more?

Nimrod MR2.
Nimrod R1.
Gazelle.
Shame the PR9's just left service...oops some nice men in black Omegas are knocking on the door!:ouch:

Ooh and someone somewhere has an airworthy Wasp, I saw it last summer.

MM

"So, which aircraft which flew in the Falklands in 1982 is still flying today and will fly during the flypast?"

Mirage
A4
Super Etendard
Pucara?

I thought their were some airworthy Shars at Shawbury. Surely the folks that flew them in can fly one out?