I am truly shocked that a serving commissioned officer should make such an outrageous statement, and that thus far no one else has seen fit to challenge it. The implication is that the well being of those under your command is not your concern. I can only hope that no one is directly under your command, but even if that be the case, the well being of anyone with a subordinate status to yours should be your concern, simply because you are a serving officer. That is your duty and to ignore that responsibility would make you derelict in your duty. The confidence with which you make such a revelation implies that most fellow officers would concur. If that be so it explains a lot about the PVR rate now going through the roof from all ranks in the RAF. Meltdown indeed!

You are an absolute disgrace. You should be ashamed of yourself.

vecvechookattack

You are a fool Sir (and I use the term Sir very loosely)
Your trouble is that you are quite happy to believe tosh put ut by the NAO, who I would suggest is part of the government? Do you think they would own up to being undermanned?
I would suggest that you take a long hard look, and then tell me and the others here that we are not (at least) seriously undermanned. Have you seen the front lines of the RAF and the Army? Cant really speak for the RN but I've no reason to think they are any different.
As for your comments about paying the motgage lark - that pretty much epitomises all that is bad in todays Officer corps, and as others have said, you should be ashamed of yourself.
TSM

Vecvec (totalwar). This time you have really surpassed yourself! Your comments offend me and many others, that I know think about their people first.

This comment really puts into context so many of your other ill-considered posts. I agree...you should be ashamed of yourself!

VecVec whatever,

I have no idea of your current rank, but whatever it is, you are unworthy of it. As a retired Wg Cdr I am ashamed that a fellow officer is prepared to display such a disgraceful attitude to the world. You are an utter disgrace to yourself, your service and this country as a whole. How on earth did you slip through the net?

You are nothing short of contemptable, and I too am ashamed of you.
The Winco

VVHA,

What a complete T*$T you are. A Naval Squadon relies on the goodwill and discipline of its team of ratings to get the job done. If you don't do your best for them, you will have no aircraft to fly ,or still worse maintenance related incidents/accidents. You reap what you sow!

Since the bag community don't have crewman I am not surprised you are so detached from those who work FOR YOU TO FLY on the shop floor.

Do us all a favour and get out of a job that is clearly well out of your ability.

Si

I won’t jump on the bandwagon and condemn Vecvec. In theory everyone has a duty of care toward their colleagues and subordinates. Anyone who has spent a single day in an MoD HQ environment, be they Serviceman or civilian, will know it takes an extremely strong character, or one with nothing to lose, to stand up to the sheer vitriol one experiences if your notion of duty of care in any way conflicts with the political imperative (as it usually does).

I don’t think anyone here needs me to quote examples. You either fight the white, or you don’t. If Vecvec keeps his head down and does a good job, then in my experience he’s in the top 10%. There are plenty who keep down and are completely incompetent. I don’t take his comment literally – it’s just a pragmatic statement and I’m sure he takes his duty toward his men very seriously.

Turning to General Jackson, while I don’t know the man I know some who do, and to a man they were content with his performance and understood the political constraints he worked under. To me, that infers he did speak his mind in private, and honoured his “contract” which required him not to speak in public; and I would give him the benefit of the doubt. He could be accused of dwelling on old arguments which have actually been won, albeit belatedly, but these subjects need to be kept alive, or the Government will renege. The list of approved Army equipment projects designed to improve the lot of the soldier (in the context of the five NATO infantry domains) is quite impressive. What is not impressive is the level of financial commitment we see from the Government. That is, many of these projects are grossly underfunded and completely misunderstood by those with authority that far outstrips their experience or knowledge. I believe the existence of these projects (some huge – FRES, FIST) is largely down to the likes of senior officers like Jackson. Some are VERY politically incorrect, so someone at a very high level has staffed them through. For example, it took a very brave man to endorse a BOWMAN replacement 4 years before the BOWMAN ISD, and require an ISD shortly after BOWMAN rollout is complete! I think the focus should be on the “petty bureaucracy” Jackson talks of. We all know what he means. The mind numbing incompetence witnessed daily in the acquisition system (note, not just procurement). I wonder if he had in mind the project that was delayed for over a month because a sentence in a Business Case was terminated with a double full stop(..)?

vecvecsmackheadattack's profile suggests Navy (Falmouth) but then that, too, could be bunkum ..... like a lot else of hers here.

tucu, I've no idea if you are/were a CS or a serving officer. If the former you are mistaken in what you say. If the latter I have almost as much issue with you as Vecvec. A commissioned officer does not have a duty of care to his/her subordinates in theory, but in reality.
Officers who keeps their head down to the detriment of their subordinates are not doing their job, let alone doing a good job! Good bosses go out on a limb for their subordinates, in return for the loyalty they get back. If the limb is sawn off by their superiors they take the rap and start all over. That's the deal. Of course a lot don't measure up to that, they never did. But if no one signs up to that standard you don't have a disciplined force, you have....well the scenario of back stabbing in the corridors of power that you you so ably recount. There is nothing pragmatic about this, if you are commissioned you are required to look out for your subordinates' interests, period!

Actually, VecVec's post neatly summarizes 3 pages of posts about why Sir Mike didn't make these points while he was serving. It's no good pretending that these people are not out there, it's exactly because of that 'alright Jack" attitude that we are in the mess we are. However unintentional, he hit the nail on the head. The good thing is that so many of you recognized it as an anathema to Service and Officer doctrine, the bad thing is that it is undoubtedly more widespread than you believe. When you are executing the policies of a morally bankrupt Government and Prime Minister, don’t be surprised when Officers begin to pay more attention to their own and their family’s welfare first.

Chug

“A commissioned officer does not have a duty of care to his/her subordinates in theory, but in reality”.


I agree but, as I said, reality kicks in when the political imperative is made known. In my experience, the latter takes priority and God help the officer who disagrees. I may not agree with this, but if I refuse to be pragmatic then I have the same choice as the General; put up and resign, or shut up. On two occasions when I put up (by insisting on carrying out my legal Duty, not the political imperative), I was threatened with the sack; by an AVM and a Senior Captain RN. OK, the latter isn’t that senior, but he had the support of a 3*, so my goose was cooked. I had known him as a very good young Lt, but promotion and exposure to politics ruined him. He had a choice; go out on a limb for me (his subordinate) or do what he was told. That is reality and every single person in our Directorate General took note of what happened and adjusted their notion of “Duty” accordingly.

Not everything is black and white. MoD is one big shade of (battleship) grey.

VecVecetc

One would like to think that you might wish to clarify your last post?...um ...as you may have guessed, it does not scan too well!:uhoh: :uhoh:

OK Tuc, I think I have it now, you went out on a limb and took the rap, and your boss didn't. It seems to me then, though not knowing all the facts, that you did your duty as an officer and he didn't. Maybe you sleep sounder than he does at night, I don't know. Put it this way, if the MOD was a battlefield (which from your testimony it would appear to be) and you were wounded doing your duty, but your boss survived unscathed by avoiding danger, his is hardly the reputation one would seek!
The issue re vecvec was in any case not about the hothouse scenario of the MOD but the bog standard duty of care an officer has for his subordinates, especially ORs. We seem to be in agreement about that I think. Your testimony of the corrupting effects of realpolitik on military order and discipline is well taken though, and is perhaps a symptom of the way the chain of command has been "quangoised" over the years. My belief is that such adulterations must be reversed to put commanders in command again.

Yes Roadster280 he was happily putting someone subordinate in their place. The man is a classic bully, happy to rap and embarass anyone below him but incapable of taking on anyone above him. If you think that humiliating a 1* in front of junior servicemen and women is the right thing to do, you need to undergo some serious man-management training.

This is a quote from a former mil asst to Jacko: "He loves his image as a hard man. Fair enough, but it appeared to me to be a classic case of a bully – he was always willing to shout at people who could only say ‘yes, sir’ back, but whenever a more senior officer was around he became oleaginously respectful – his pet phrase was actually ‘Yes, Master…’ "

Quite frankly not saying any of this when he was CGS might have been defensible on the basis that it was better to stay in place and try to change things, if it werent for the facts that a: Dannatt did make some serious changes within weeks of taking over - on operational pay, ministers' willingness to talk about withdrawing from Iraq, and military only wards - by not keeping quiet and b) Jackson didnt just keep quiet he repeatedly insisted loudly that everything in the garden was wonderfully rosy and called anyone who even came close to making the very same points he made in his lecture a liar.

Ah the perennial problem of a military entity being respectful to the authority of a democracy or being vocal to the point of it becoming a dictatorship - how is Fiji at the moment?

When I last looked I dont think Dannatt was president. I might be wrong but I dont see any comparison between him and his Fijian equivalent. He made his point and kept on doing the job he was paid to do. But having said that as at 1 October 2006 there were 2,055 Fijians in the armed forces, 75 in the RN, 1,975 in the army and even five in the RAF. If one of them ever gets to be CDS we might be in business. ;)

Touche - good riposte MS!!

I have never liked the man or his style of leadership which seems to blend nicely with new labours. Cook and Short didn't bleat until after they had left the front benches either, nice one eh?

He had his chance to stand up and be counted when he was in office and clearly he didn't achieve his potential. And let us not forget fellow Ppruners that this chap was being paid to give the lecture, he's had his 15 minutes and no doubt he will become one of Sky Tv's so called experts thus boosting his huge pension fund still further.

As for vevecthingy, I suspect he is Admin Guru under another name. I suggest we just ignore him and he will go away!
:ugh:

Originally Posted by vecvechookattack
, I don't know of one military Offcier who is in the mob to
"to care for the wellbeing of the men and women under their command"
Most military Officers I know (and I count myself in this) are in the Mob in order to pay the Mortgage.
evecvechookattack you are exactly the type of Officer that was around as JENGOs in the late 80s that helped me make my mind up to leave after 24yrs service. I can only hope that someone who reads this thread knows who you are and exposes you to your subordinates who will drop you well and truely in the S**t. You are a disgrace to your uniform

There was an interesting item in Broadcasting House (R4) this morning on the apparant growing gulf between military and civilian ethos. (Mike Jackson's "we we" cf. "me me"). An Oxford Professor of Warfare, Prof Straughan (sp?), opined that few people in influential positions in politics and industry/commerce now have any experience of military service, certainly of active service, and that, in this situation it is entirely desireable that senior serving and retired officers should speak out and explain the military viewpoint to the public. He doubts that, if this were done sensibly, the public would feel in any way threatened. I agree (v. my earlier post on our unwritten constitution)