why is everyone flightcrew leaving the military?
 

bristol groundschool is full of flight crew people either getting out or about to get out

why is this?

Hmmmm, it could be that one or two (or ten) of the threads on this forum might just give you a few clues.............:rolleyes:



OK, thats got rid of the message about not posting for some weeks.
Hat, coat, door......

Hi controller,

I take it you're not a frequent visitor to the Military Aviation forum? Have a good read, it'll give you some big pointers of issues affecting the RAF today. I'd like to go into detail, but in all honesty it's all been covered ad infinitum on these forums, and if you have a look at some other forum sites you'll see that it's not just "flight crew" either. Ground trades are leaving in droves too. (Proportionately speaking, probably more so).
I really don't wish this reply to sound flippant, but there's no other way of putting it. Things are in a huge downward spiral and people can't wait to get out. Bad morale, bad equipment, fast turnaround on detachments, lowering standards, overstretch, etc etc. I could go on all night.

Hopefully that answers your question though. I'll leave you to do "further reading" as you see fit!

hi, no i am not a frequent visitor. presumably there is no shortage of flightcrew wannabees to take their place though?

Most aircrew are now doing their licences and are looking to move on from the "new" RAF as soon as their option point comes along. Take the gratuity and pension and go and do something that, mostly, does not involve more secondary duties than primary ones (ie just the flying). The "new" RAF is not the "old" RAF - most people, not just aircrew, are realising that it is time to go. Aircraft servicability, OOA too frequently and the general way that we are all being treated is playing a large part in people's decision to vote with their feet. I feel sorry for those left behind who will, no doubt, be forced to work even harder with less time off and more OOA.

Last one out, switch the light off (if the MOD haven't taken the one servicable lightbulb out and sold it already)...

SMT

Of course not. (Again, read these forums, keeping a lookout for "I'm hoping to join the RAF!")
There'll always be plenty of volunteers for the flying jobs. "Ah but how do you replace experience?" I hear you ask. And there's the rub.
It's going down the sewer I'm afraid. Time to jump ship for me, and I'm a certified RAF nut.

What I really like is leaving home at 0700, spending most of the day flying and teaching the student(the good bit) and then thinking at about 1730, its just about time to go home....

Oh, but then I'm asked whether I've completed the ''little jobs'' and secondary duties that I have been given (because there are simply not enough staff, no admin assistants etc etc) My reply is quite simply '' sorry , not enough time''

But that isn't a good enough answer it seems... what we are meant to do is make up for all the shortfalls and the under manning by working stupidly long hours..

So arrive back at house around 1930 to have less than 12 hours before leaving again!!! But its ok, at least I dont have orderly officer to do at the weekend.....

not willing to offend anyone, but isnt it just the case that the military has finally caught up with the way the working world is for civilians? ie underpaid, overworked, too much form-filling...

Maybe, but when was the last time you saw a story on the news about an overworked postal worker falling off his bike, spilling Christmas cards all over the road?

If a similar thing happens to a fatigued military pilot at work..... he's famous !!

Probably yes.

But at the same time how do you fancy Iraq or Afghanistan this time of year? If you were told it'll be one this year, and the other the next, how would you feel then? Oh and by the way, how do you feel about the fact that you'll get paid approximately 20-40% less than your contemporaries in civvy street?
We could argue this all night. I'm just trying to give you a flavour of where most of the RAF are coming from.

By the way, not offended in the slightest old chap. As I say, I'm out soon, so I feel no offence whatsoever! Ask the guys that are staying though......:sad:

From personal experience, the hours don't change - still 0700 to 1900 (and sometimes though the night when bidding for new work) - but then the advantages of not having secondary duties, DSO/OO or being sent to warzones are somewhat obvious.

I wouldn't go back for double the salary.

Here is an insight into why Bristol Grounschool might be full of ex mil candidates (Well, my ramblings on what would make an experienced pilot, with a steady and guaranteed income, want to jump ship)

I love the RAF (yep, sad but I really am proud of everything we stand for and everything we have achieved), the flying training I have received and the job I do has been second to none and I could not wish for some of the opportunities I have been afforded. However, I have reached my option point and, although I've been offered PA and a short term extension to my current terms, will be off as soon as I can. I know that where I am going (Civvy airlines, hopefully) will not be a complete bed of roses but I also know that the RAF that I joined is not the RAF that I am currently serving.

The shop floor of the British military has an inherent ability to keep going despite whatever is thrown at it, particularly in the way of budget cuts and poor equipment. Hopefully the new blood that is currently earning it's spurs or that are joining as we speak will be happy with the state of things as they are as they will know no different and this is what will keep the services going. This is as long as budget cuts do not really hit safety - once that happens then we have a whole new ball game. I just have a fear that this will happen sooner rather than later which is one of the reasons I want to leave now.

As an SH driver, the implementation of JHC has seen nothing but negatives for the RAF. Despite our protestations and early highlighting of our concerns, the few benefits of being in the RAF have been slowly but surely eroded. I do not wish this to sound like the AAC have in any way dragged us down, they have had their terms and conditions reduced and do not appear to have seen any benefit from the amalgamation. The FAA seem to have escaped many of the drawbacks although I beleive that the CHF are starting to feel the bite a little.

Our lords and masters have done precious little to protect us from a government with a vastly over-ambitious foreign policy that a) doesn't want to pay for its military (Brown's "Pay for Gulf War 2 out of your training budget" and his announcement of a 'vote saving' Iraq/Afghan bonus that is then to be funded from the existing MoD budget) and b) is traditionally anti-military (How many current MPs have served in HM Forces?). We have a hierachy full of yes-men and they are all so bloody afraid to upset the apple cart that we have been stitched up time and time again.

We have operational deployments to particularly dodgy parts of the world cropping up with increased frequency and it seems to be made as hard as possible to actually deploy with more and more admin hoops to jump through before they will 'let you go' (as if you want to go) everytime we deploy. When we finally arrive at these godforsaken places it is never down to the skill of the Defence Transport 'Management' Agency - who seem to do everything in there power to make your trip to hell as unpleasant as possible.

We have also had to put up with the civilianisation of the military. This not only manifests iteslf with civvy companies doing half of the tasks that used to be done by the military and then not doing the SDO, Guard Commander, Gate Gurd duties that now appear on our programmes with more and more regularity, but also with all the bo11ocks management speak of 'Line Managers', "Mission Statements" and "Focus Groups". Can someone tell me when a 'Line Manager' last lead a squadron into battle? We need and want military leaders.

Finally, we are sick to death with our own terms and conditions being constantly chiselled away. MQs that are so poorly administered that it takes 6 months to have a serious fault fixed and the promise that in the near future rents will increase to match civilian rates; the lack of health and dental care (at my base station there is no Dental receptionist due to budget cuts - so appointments have to be made via answerphone and the hope that when you are called back you are not flying/deployed), the reduction in benefits snuck in the back door via JPA and the pi55 poor salary increases, assessed by the 'independant' AFPRB that every single time seem to be exactly in line with government targets despite how hard we are working or what extra duties our jobs have attracted.

I realise I have ranted for a while now and some outsiders might look on these and think 'spoilt', 'prima-donna', and 'get a life, join the real world'. The big thing is that I was sold one set of terms and conditions and, by erosions via both the back and front doors, these have now gone. This is probably the case for many that are deciding that they have had enough and is why so many are looking for work in the civvy sector.

[End 'Rant']

I left the Air Force in 2001 and the only things I miss is the sense of humour and the laughs I had .. I think Lafyar Cokov is Spot on and far from being a rant his post is 100% spot on.

I could see the way things were going back then and I havent looked back since joining Civvy St, it still makes me smile that employers thought more of me for just having been in the Royal Air Force than the Royal Air Force thought of me while I was serving.

As for the politicians they are living proof that brain death isnt fatal, as far as I am concerned the only man who ever entered the House of Commons with a good idea was Guy Fawkes.

I am going to stop now before the Rant switch kicks in .. ;)

In the 23 years that I have so far served the only thing that has ever actually got better is the Boots, everything else has got worse.

I agree with you Lafyer Cokov whole heartedly, I am now finals to land in Civvy street and consider my next posting the last.

What grips me and many others who have baled out, has been watching the prevailing role model attributes slide steadfastly from "Dan Dare" to "Arthur Daley" over thirty years.

Brilliant - thanks for this - best laugh all day.

Lafyer Cokov has supplied the answer and I agree with him wholeheartedly.
The nail was hit firmly on the head (for me, at least) at the recent Heli-Power conference. When one of the speakers, not from the UK, was asked how he managed to keep his aviators in the service, instead of them wishing to leave, he answered that you have to ensure that their efforts are appreciated, and that they, and their families, are well supported.
The two words that I have underlined are considerably less today, and in some places non-existant, compared to the armed forces I joined many years ago, and, I suspect, across all 3 services and not just from the RAF, as the RAF in Meltdown thread is showing. (Anyone else non-RAF joining in this thread? We are purple on PPRuNe!)

That is why people are looking for the door.
And stealing your airline jobs. :E

This thread is in danger of crossing over into the RAF in Meltdown discusion, however all valid points. The RAF is now a business, and is attempting to set itself up as one. The only problem is it's bankrupt, and its greatest asset, its people, cannot be treated like commodities, to use and abuse as required, due to the nature of the job given to them.

Agree totally with Lafyar. Newly promoted, I have made the decision with Mrs SLC that it isnt worth the heart ache/separation to stay long enough to confirm the pension and have pulled the yellow and black handle to hopeful happiness. I just have to go before I become more bitter about the betrayal of our efforts by an ungrateful government and senior managements lack of inspirational leadership; I am no longer proud of the Royal Air Force in which I serve.

At least the man blowing the leaves on the grass outside my office has a sense of achievement when he goes home..................:hmm:

Thumbs Up For Bristol Groundschool
 

countdeblades

MOST DEFINITELY do your ground subjects at Bristol Groundschool. I don't think I could have managed the old CAA Nav exams without Alex Whittingham and his team. His course, now JAR of course, is designed to get you up to speed on exam technique and the 'flavours of the month' in JAR subjects. In other words, a course to pass the exam, not necessarily to learn all the trivial crap that the majority of the syllabus contains.

Alex himself could teach the ENTIRE course from memory (seems to have a brain the size of a planet) but, of course, he hasn't the time. So he has a first rate team all singing from his hymn sheet - "This is how to pass the exam!"

DO IT, yoy know it makes sense. I do not believe there is another course that even comes close to his in terms of giving you the tools to get your little green license.

PS - No, I am not affiliated or paid by BGS. I just know they are the best.

Contrary to the earlier posts - I believe this sits VERY well with the "RAF Meltdown" thread.
The only difference is 'who' we are talking about, as this seems to be aircrew rather than groundcrew.
All the same reasons are given there too.

I have spent some time reading the various threads on PPRuNe and have to say I am in total agreement with the previous comments WRT the state of the RAF. I am also close to the black and yellow option, being one who joined as a lowley mech many years ago having now done 1-3rd line tours as well as Stn, industry and DLO type tours, the current one presently being a JEngO tour. Not only has the Air Force reached the point where the consitent errosion has destroyed what little ethos and pride many of us had in the RAF but the fact that none of the Airships (gawd bless em!) have made any effort that can be shouted about to stop, slow down or even reverse the current state of affairs. As with many I am bitter, but bitter that the clowns who control the Military don't seem to realise that the fact that the entire forces are not only overstretched, underfunded, underequipped with morale so low that if it baled out from a snakes a**e it would still be able to get full deployment before impact. More importantly it is not just sites and forums such as PPRuNe that are shouting about it but that everyone knows it and they (the luvies at No 10) and the Seniors of the Services, with the exception of Gen Dannett seem to want to do nothing about it, and our Airships are the worst of the lot!!

I (as do many others) spend most of my time fighting to justify why the gapped posts I have NEED to be filled by PMA, why with only half manpower we can't keep all the ac serviceable as the stupendous lean and E2E studies have removed what we need to do just that. I could rant on and on and on about how the contractorisation of our 2nd and 3rd line is not working but in actual fact I don't give a flying toss about Fwd and Depth or stats or E2E or lean or customers or business processes or SOR or URDs any of the other poxy and irritating issuses that have been forced upon us. All which get in the way of all of us being able to do what we need to and want to do. We are in the Air Force, the aim of which is to genrate and project military power around the globe to protect our interests at home and overseas and to act as a force for good (hell I did remejber somthing from Cranners). But if Mr Blair/Brown continue in the current direction there will not be an Air Force in a couple of years.

I have spent a lot of years working with some of the best people in the world, and made some lasting freindships to boot, but the time has come where my family need a daddy at home to see them grow up. I also understand as do we all that the powers that be are more interested in costs and money than ability and capability and have for a long time failed to acknowledge that they need to SUPPORT the forces, not just make mouth music. It saddens me so much that the reason I will be leaving the RAF is that I no longer have any trust or faith in those who are in control.

All I can say is good luck to those who choose to remain, you have my thanks, appreciation and understanding.:D

Spannermonkey - mind if I borrow some of that to put in a covering letter with my yellow and black?:D

spannermonkey - Nail, Head spot on.

Looks like PMA will be seeing your words many times over.

Less than 1yr left, thankfully, as it is no fun anymore

Spanner excellent post, I also joined up as a lowly AmechP (remember them?) but left at the 13 year(1989) point even then it was fairly obvious the way things were going even though I was on for 22 I just could not see me staying till then so jumped ship, to be honest I have never regreted it and in fact sometimes wished I had left earlier and got licensed and typed much sooner. Good luck in your future career whether it is in the airlines (very much needed in this day and age) or something else.:D

what I(d) really like...
 

What I really like is leaving home at 0400 to prepare for an 0700 Take Off - to find there's no serviceable aircraft - yet!.

What I really - really like then, is using the time constructivley to catch up with the little admin things in life which form such an important part of our support infrastructure.

No problem, delayed flight - good excuse for a spot of 'fat boys breakfast' in the mess :ok: - but due to staff shortages it's centralised messing in the airmans mess this week and late breakfasts are out!:{

Ok, nip up to SHQ and renew the wife's railcard at last - except it's Wednesday - due to staff shortages - they don't do Wednesdays.

Clothing stores then? - new shirts - "Nah, we've been waiting for that size for weeks"
- How about replacing these trousers? - "No problem Sir, Tailors Parade Tuesdays 1000-1200 - but she's on holiday for 3 weeks"

hmmm.... Ah - SCAF (inventories) - just up stairs - "Sorry Sir, Cpl Stacker went OOA last week, I've just taken over his desk as well as my own, and I know nothing about your inventory"

A spot of admin? - except the computer system has dumped all my details and doesn't know who I am - and the one in house specialist computer bod is on CCS det prep - all week! :ugh:
Oh bug*er, can't check my e-mails, work on those overdue reports, or those lesson preps. Can't check the tea bar accounts or the duty rosters for the Xmas period. Double bug*er!

Oh well - chin up - how's the aircraft? - "Yep, we've got one serviceable, but it's shift change and the next shift will have to AF/BF it - should be ready by lunch time" :hmm:
(quick mental calc - hour and a half crew in - could be airborne by 1400 - if we're quick. - 6hr Op/CT. - land by 2000 - oops - quick call to the wife to rejig this evenings plans.)

Now what? - Annual medical - "Certainly Sir, - first available appointment March 27" :uhoh:

Dental centre - How soon could I get a hygenist appointment please? -
"We would give you one tomorrow Sir, - if we had a hygenist" :}

Gymnasium - "Sorry Sir, the showers are U/s"

Submit a leave application - except I can't get logged on to the JPA :bored:

Car Pass - "Sorry Sir, he's on his break, back in 15mins - staff shortages you know".

So I stand for 15mins and marvel at the volume of traffic going on and off the Station, and how those in uniform are all stopped for ID checks, but the white vans, artics and taxis are waved straight through - amazing. Somebody must be busy. ;)
"Sorry Sir, the sticky back plastic machine is broken so I can't issue a permenant pass, but your temporary one is good for another 3 days"!
- I don't suppose I can..... -
"Nope, not when there's still 3 days on that one, you'll have to come back when that runs out" :*
- Could I maybe speak to OC Plods and..... -
"Nope, she's just gone OOA and the F/Sgt is on post det leave"

Ok, count to ten, shrug shoulders, bow politely and give in...:(

Check on aircraft again. Yippee, AF/BF is complete - Oh bug*er - the one 'qualified' driver on shift is busy with coach runs to the rifle range for the Regt Flight, then he's on lunch break so we won't get fuel 'till 1330 - "staff shortages you know"

Airborne by 1430 maybe? - you must be joking - there's a Take-off and Landing embargo between 1400 and 1600 because of the fire section shift manning problems, not helped by having 4 firemen on gate guard this week. :sad:

Airborne at 1600 then? - so that was in for 0430 to get airborne at 1600 for 6hrs and land at 2200,
- crew duty time, err.. just about legal,
- motivation, err.. just about intact,
- morale, err... fragile,
- playmates, err... none existant,
- training value, err...zero,
but the Flight deck crew need the hours for currency, the rear crew have a standards check tomorrow in the sim and the Staish needs to show the hours flown this month so we better go.

2200 landing - "Sorry Sir, the Eng you borrowed from crew 2 is flying as Ops1 with crew 6 tomorrow at 0700 and needs some rest time before another early start."
- "Where's our Eng?" -
"You haven't got one!."

Oh bug*er. :(

Drop in by the Ops room on the way out and note; 'War flyable Aircraft Availability 98.5%' :rolleyes: and in the remarks column for todays sortie - 'Cancelled - Aircrew Scrub. - No Crew!' :ugh:

What I really, really - really like then, is to sit at home in the evening with a great sense of achievement and satisfaction after a productive days work, content in the knowledge that my days efforts are a highly valued contribution to the collective objective and proud of the fact that the huge logistics tail of this modern efficient fighting Air Farce is there to support me....:D

Mange tou Rodney, mange tou!!!!!

It wouldn't be so funny if it was not ALL true!

Would that be enough of an answer then?


edited bit - I've just re-read all this - Even if you had an official Enquiry to answer to - You couldn't make all this up!

Oil can I think you work the same place as the rest of us! great isn't it?

blimey. now i see what everyone's getting out. it sounds like working for the local council, except you get to visit war-zones and get up earlier in the morning.

ah well, look on the bright side. at least you dont have £40,000 debt for your flight training costs....

Not that curious anymore. Got out, got a civvie job, and the grass IS much greener.

Spannermonkey,What a cracking quote! I'm going to nick it and call it my own :E.

Airships, for the love of god -TAKE NOTE AT WHAT IS GOING ON, AND DO SOMETHING!!!!!:{

No doubt they will "hear what you say"......:rolleyes:

But hope that it will go away until they get the 3rd star and the K.

Wow mutleyfour, my flying boots are that old :)

For once in my life I agree with BEagle.

That's exactly it. The Airships "Hear" what is said. They also "Read" what is said.

They then think: "Ah well, I'm only in post 18 months, it won't affect me or my promotion. That's automatic!".
"F*ck it".

"And F*ck them all!"

Hush!!! You mutinous dog.
Who needs morale when you have discipline?
Just remember a day out of uniform is a day wasted. :rolleyes:

Having read Oilcan's resume of a bad day, I recall a Flight Safety video in the late 80s. It was about an FJ pilot (actor Richard O'Sullivan?) who had a bad morning in the mess, in supply, in pre-brief - everywhere. And it all led to the worst possible result, I think. Yet what happened in the video wasn't even a half of Oilcan's summary of the hassles of today .....

I think it was called "Distractions" and had the young Beckinsale as a Harrier mate with things on his mind. To be honest from my memories of Sqn life even in the late 80's there is far more to get wound up about now. The benefits of Service life have all but been eroded by those who have little or no knowledge of their value.

I've just under 2 years to do on the Chinny fleet and my boss said to me the other day, "I don't think you'll leave in a couple of years." :=

In walks ***** and states, "Boss, I've just worked that the average time we'll be spending in Afghanistan over the next three years is 5 1/2 months per year." :eek:

I looked at my boss, I didn't have to say a word... :}

Last one out, please turn all the lights off... http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v3...sc-rambo-1.gif

This thread has hit it's third page in just under 36 hours of the original post and everyone is singing from the same songsheet. Perhaps someone will take notice. (I jest!).

I left the RAF at a bad time (one month befor 9/11) and managed to be made redundant from my first airline job before I'd even officially left the RAF. I did hear one sentiment from the RAF to the effect that all their retention problems were over. But I didn't go back in and neither did most of my contempories. And now, I'm far better off.

My reasons for not assimilating were various and have all been covered here in depth. But this was 5 years ago and things seem far worse now.

As for BGS, the class was full of mil guys when I did the course. They offer the best product for a chap who has most of the info but needs to organise it in his head in a fashion which will get him/her through the hoops.