SRENNAPS,
Like all things - a little knowledge is dangerous. Once you fully understand the limitations and regulations crews work under to safely transport you to your destination then by all means pontificate.:ugh:

Yea right - give me a break!

I think most of us understand the regs - and when they are being abused.

Did the CAS travel to Indra Danush via RAF AT?

If so he will have seen the problem first hand, and it will be immediately rectified. I'm sure he will have been handled in the same manner as every other pax.

And what regs are you familiar with, as a ground technician, that regulates the airborne environment on a passenger ac?

Methinks nowt. But I can spot a chip or two a mile off.:}

Postnote: apologies for repeating the previous - I obviously type slower.

Having read all the posts regarding the RAF AT's performance and having experienced it at first hand IMHO I think that the RAF should be responsible for transporting personnel from the operational area to an airhead outside of the operational area. All AT trooping from that airhead to the UK and vice a versa should be contractorised.

I agree with the MP. It is NOT the break downs and stuff which annoyed me (you get well and truly used to that on the F3) but the bl**dy rubbish flow of information and help you get from the ground staff. I don't think I ever had a single trip 'out' or 'back' to anywhere using AT that wasn't a complete pain in the backside. It always starts witht the turning up hours and hours early and just gets worse from there. I know that our jets are rubbish, I know that things are not going to go to plan most of the time but when you are hanging around in BZN for 2 or 3 hours after wheels before the wretched staff there decide to tell you that the a/c is tits and you will not be going on time, the level of annoyance is high. If you have a bunch of pongo's back from 'stan, they are going to be rightly annoyed when treated firstly like children (turning up so early) and latterly like mushrooms!
The RAF movers et al need a wake up. Glad I only fly AirNZ now!

Chug,

I apologise if my thoughts were not that clear however please let me try and clarify and maybe redress a few issues you and a couple of others have.

If we travel anywhere in the world where we have movements support, although why anyone would choose support as the correct adjective to describe movements, once the pax are disembarked we, as crew, are now reliant on said chisselers to carry out their duties as laid down. Pax are extremely rarely accomodated alondside crew for a whole variety of reasons, mainly pax want to party all night while the crew need to get their sleep...............yeah right:E but thems the rules. With that in mind how are we supposed to know when our pax are being fecked about when you are not even in the same post code as us:rolleyes:

On the occasion when we have no movers to hand we, the ALM's take charge and normally produce the goods. Example of that is we used to move folks from the "Staan" via Bucharest and the pax came to the same hotel as us for the night stop. We booked everyone a room, most had to double up but that is a bean counter issue and there is nothing we can do about it, we ensured that everyone got a 3 course evening meal and breakfast, paid room bills, advised on best methods of currency exchange, which taxi's to use and where the good bars were and did our best the following day to provide as good an inflight meal service as Bucharest can provide.

I have gone to McD's in Muscat and ordered 75 Big Mac meaks during a protracted flag stop, served 40 odd pissed up fast jet support crew with pizza on the ramp sat outside the RAFLO's office in Gander, handed out icecreams to Chinook crews and GC's in 29 Palms yadda yadda yadda and I know I am one of many who provide that very basic service.........the upshot is that most AT crews are fighting your cause but at some stage we have to hand you over to "the system" and if that lets us both down you have my sincere apologies:(

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

Well mate - that about sums up the attitude that has led to this problem.
Your attitude: You see me as low life that uses your planes. I am glad to see that as a " ground technician" (sooty actualy) you seem to think that we dont know - thats why you try it on!!!!
As for chip on my shoulder. I dont think so. I have spent times in a lot of places around the world. Some were good - best hotels going. Some were bad, tents, holes in the ground and burning crap when it got too much. But it was fun. The only real nightmare was when you finished the job and then got screwed around by people who make a living out of feeling sorry for themselves and blamed everbody else.
So mate - I would look at where the CHIP really IS????

PS. Have you read any other posts around here that seem to echo my words??? Or do you just dismiss those as well????

I left the Movs trade several years ago and currently work for a blue chip company. I've watched the mover bashing/winding-up for some time on these forums with little serious interest. However, when I was shown the MP's letter the other day at work I admit I could imagine, with great regret, it all happening as described.
I remember when I joined up in the early 70s the first thing instilled in us was that as a mover we would probably be the only person that someone from the Navy or Army would ever meet and as such should represent the service in the best light......where has it all gone wrong?
I know from working in civvy street that customer service costs, but if you don't give it you won't have a customer.
Yes, the movers in Akronelli were probably under pressure at the time, undermanned and under resourced, and they may be able to provide some sort of reason/excuse as to where it all went wrong. What galls me the most though is the way that on their website they say it is just whingeing ppruners and not worthy of a response. If they cannot face the criticism head on and admit to shortcomings how can they improve.
I know I was a good mover. With a couple of tours on UK Bags under my belt I knew when to make my presence known and when to be quiet and sit at the back of the crew bus.
I spent many enjoyable years in Lincolnshire working for the fast jet boys. Again they were our customers and what ever the SEngO wanted I would try and get, I was there to MCCP them at their Sqn HAS site if they wanted, get them thru EMA with minimal customs etc.
The movements trade must have a high level review, if they need more resources to reduce passenger inconvenience they must have them, if they need more quality leadership it must be provided.
I had a great time as a mover, was proud to be one. Do I feel sorry for them with all this bad press?......I'm not sure

SRE,

Totally agree fella, that post was totally out of order:} but you must forgive him.........he's from Brize:E

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

As an ex-sooty myself I can see a classic barrackroom lawyer. Now back to my statement - what regs?

ABIW - having done 4 tours on the K I am actually more at home where you are.

"ABIW - having done 4 tours on the K I am actually more at home where you are."

Then you should be ashamed of your comment to SRE:=

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

Sorry Matey:E ,

When somebody jumps on the bandwagon and 'quotes' regs - he is fair game. If he then fails to produce those regs he is a b**ls**t artist. Probably not PC but I get bored with chaps having a go when we work our arses off trying to get themselves and us home. Yes I have been a pax on my own and other fleets when they have gone u/s, including contractorised, and it is a pain.

Ok, I give up. There is no point.
Abuse of regs may have been a bit strong - but they are certainly used to the advantage of the operator when it suits them.
Dont have a go at me because I have vented off my frusration. I have just said it the way it was. And it appears to be the way it is now.
People are not happy with the AT service provided. And there are just too many excuses.
As for "barrackroom lawyer" well what can I say. That is a cheap shot.
If the AT service is so good - lets have a survey. A 50 question sheet given to the Army Navy and RAF about the service provided - then we will see if I am just a barrackroom lawyer.

SRE:) ,

All you needed to do was state the case. If you actually strip out the times the ac goes u/s then your list gets shorter. If an ac is u/s going past a base then depending on the snag, cos we might have loads of engineering mates there, it would be better than landing somewhere that may take some time to get the spares and eng support to. You must have tried to recover spares from custom houses around the world - it is a pain.

By the way I know diddley squat about modern engineering practices pertinent to your type so why should you know what our regulations are? That is the point - folks have a dig when they do not understand crew rest periods and crew duty days that are in place to safeguard you, the passenger, from harm. Everybody has regs they follow and it is not for all to know each others but to understand that folks, if they are the calibre we foster, will try and go that extra mile or hour to ensure the task is completed as long as it does not compromise the safety of our customer - that is you.

SRENNAPS, I have tried to eat some humble pie on this thread wrt the way pax etc are treated when things don't go to plan, but I have to take exception to your latest page of accusations.

I have never been on a jet where I, or anyone on the crew to the best of my knowledge, has manufactured faults etc to stay another night in the hotel. I don't know how to get this through to people, but delays downroute mess me around too, not just our passengers. Yes, perhaps you have been away for some time and want to get home when the jet breaks, and we have only flown in for the night, but you must remember that during the period you have been away at that location, we have probably spent lots of 'one night aways'. Do you honestly believe I have not seen enough of the hotel in Akrotiri, or Calgary or wherever it may be that we break?

Now to move on to the "headwinds, oh oh" ("Comong back from Goose Bay - OH OH!!! head winds - we have to divert into Brize. Oh no!! crew out of time - no others available. Night stop in Gateway".) two points:

1. Headwinds happen. We do not manufacture them so that we can divert to Brize. Do you not think that if we called a div to Brize because of headwinds which weren't there, we would land with far more gas than we needed? This gets noted by the 'auth' and questions would be asked, as inevitably they are on a diversion to ensure it was correct. If we didn't land with lots of spare gas then the Q would be asked why we didn't take more!

2. If this happened as you said, (although I find it odd that such a "lie" would be based on headwinds, when the predominant winds on that route would be tailwinds, therefore making it a particularly bad "lie"), crew duty happens, and lack of crews happens. It's unfortunate, but it does happen.

Basically, I think you are giving us (AT Crews) too much credit for what we can get away with, and not enough credit for being professional. I take my professionalism very flocking seriously, and I do take exception to your sweeping generalising accusations of fraud and foul play.

As stated in a previous post, I (We) endeavour to keep people informed as to what is happening, however if you happen to be on my jet next time we delay somewhere, hows about coming to talk to me if you want more details, instead of making sweeping accusations. I'd be only too happy to provide you the answers, to the best of my ability. I, after all, don't make sweeping accusations about sooties when one of my engines happens to fail; engine failures happen, and I trust you to do your job.

Ps. Yes, the AT system/fleet is ****, and I'm sorry for that. Who knows it better than those of us that get flocked around by delays nearly every single time I go to work, or try to come home. I struggle to believe people think we manufacture more to suit ourselves. There are more than enough genuine delays and break downs wrecking my personal life without making up new ones.

Flyboy.............dooh:rolleyes:

"Yes, perhaps you have been away for some time and want to get home when the jet breaks, and we have only flown in for the night, but you must remember that during the period you have been away at that location, we have probably spent lots of 'one night aways'. Do you honestly believe I have not seen enough of the hotel in Akrotiri, or Calgary or wherever it may be that we break?"

Thats gonna come as a real comfort to the guys who spend up to 6 months at a time away from home...........I can almost hear the tears of sympathy hitting the floor for you missing your creature comforts for more than one night at a time.................not:(

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

I have just mentioned some of my personal experiences. I am not accusing any body of anything. But I assure you they are true incidents. My wife was involved in the funeral trip.
I apologise to you all for any insult but I am not on trial here. I say it the way it was and the way it still seems to be.
I have been in the RAF a long time. There are a lot of good people. But there are also an awful lot of people who are in it for nothing but themselves - too many these days. And they are the ones that are not helping.
Oh and by the way, as a yachtsman I know my weather, I also queried the headwinds on that trip and was looked at rather blankly.

Please don't misunderstand me ABIW, I'm not hunting for sympathy nor trying to compare our series of night stops with a 6 month det, but merely trying to point out that a delay also messes me around, therefore i'm not going to manufacture delays so I can have another night in a hotel.

I have nothing but respect and sympathy for those that do 6 months away, and then get messed around when trying to finally get home, however I do take exception to people suggesting I manufacture said delays so that I may spend another night somewhere.

Flyboy,

See that you start out apologising and some tw@t ends up on your case:O Shutting up now:ok:

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

ABIW, I only wish I was one of your pax, if for no other reason than I would have shed a few years! It seems from what you say that your pax are a damn sight better off when they are reliant on the crew than on RAF Movements on a stopover!
Your little story above reminds me of being a very young copilot and, as the imprest holder, responsible for accompanying the pax to their hotel, seeing them all accommodated and fed for the night stop, and the bill paid in cash. Only then could I rejoin the crew in our hotel, by which time they were several beers ahead of me! Next morning as soon as the wheels were up, I was off down the back like a Clippie saying "any more fares please" to joining pax. PFC on R&R who can only pay in US dollars? No problem, I'll just start a new sub imprest in that currency! Happy days, and to be fair they were, because we had fun! I'm not so sure that is true today, and I'm not sure why!
Sorry I seem to have drifted, comes with advanced years, now where were we? Oh yes, long walks to terminal, etc. Well the rule is you do what you can. No one can do much more, so if you do what you can for your pax, without it becoming counter productive do it. Try to avoid macho stand offs with ground staffs. You may feel good making some wretched DAMO look small, but he's only going to take it out on the next one in the food chain, who's going to take it out on the pax. Bingo! So let's all lighten up and see if we can simply keep the pax in the loop, and treat them as we would like to be treated ourselves! Simple!
PS the "Cheap Changi Watch" takes me back, haven't heard that one in ages!

ABIW,
Believe it or not but Brize Sqns also spend time away on Dets, we may even have to tap sand out of our boots. I personally enjoy the flying and it fattens the logbook!
I have enjoyed the dubious pleasure of a solar shower bag on more than one det.

Chug,

On the J ALM's have always handled the imprest so your regailing brings a smile to my face..........or is it a grimace, whatever the imprest is often a bundle of fun and long may it continue:ok:

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

ABIW, Lol, yeah, never again. And for the record, I too have sent the loadie down to the subway for 75 feet of sandwich to feed the pax when "the rules" didn't provide for it. (actually, it was 45 feet for the loadie, and 30' for the pax. I'M JOKING, DON'T TEAR STRIPS OFF ME)

SRE, I really do regret that those events ever happened as you describe, however I also do not believe they were all conspiracies to enable aircrew to spend the night at a place of their choosing. What I would suggest is possibly more likely, (and I mean this with all due respect to yourself) is that the reasons for some of the decisions taken, were not properly/effectively conveyed to you. Half of the issues we see on this thread, appear to stem from lack of information flow. Hows about we, as aircrew, make the decision to try and brief pax ourselves when issues occur, thereby eliminating the chinese whispers. Any takers?

You know that I have no real idea about the regs we are talking about other than crew duty time. We all have regs to abide to and we all know how we can bend thouse regs when it suits us. So unless you are whiter than white dont go there.

Was that a dig at me Ratty?

I agree. It helps so much. I was actually lucky during my time in the fast jet world in the fact that I knew many people from the AT world from my Brize days. Communication is the way forward - and of course a smile, a good morning and afternoon and a general "hello" helps.
How many people in this forum say "good morning" when they walk to work??

Ratty,

I take umbrage with your last comments and want immediately the identity of the tw@t who defended the movers...............straight jacket and padded cell for that ar@e right now:E .........and it's not flyboy!!

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

I can never find my hat, so I have to drive to work! But you're right, it goes a long way.

Ratty, I wasn't apologising for the movers. I was apologising as the customer facing chap, who usually is the one making the decision to delay/divert etc, thereby causing the passengers to be subjected to more poor treatment, and as an ambassador for the AT fleet. Perception is often that it is us, as aircrew, causing the delays. Obviously to you and I it's not, but perception is what is is.

Really? Are you trying to wind me up and turn this thread into a slinging match? It was a joke Ratty, have a whiskey.

Right if you two girls are going to go all gay and PC I am off to bed:p

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induved

Ratty1
No I am not!!!!
On the positive side I have had some brill times on AT. Like the time I was stood up on the flight deck with my Vid cam coming into Bermuda/Azores/Alaska.
The time when a Jag Sqn was on board and the got normal white buttie boxes, but I was on board to fix a tonka in Djon france and they treated me like royalty.
The night we completelty trashed a herc to find a Hyd pipe for a tornado and the Loadie turned up at 2 in the morning and tieded the place up.
The day in bermuda when a tristar and herc crew really looked after us!!!!!!
I know what goes on.

so nice being a mover
 

Have read through this thread and feel the need to comment. Being on duty on the day of this incident at the aircraft's home base, we knew before if left theatre that is was going to be u/s on arrival in Cyprus. We had a eng rep passed from the GE before it left.

Would all aircrew who have told us how good they all are at looking after passengers, care to explain why the pax were only told of the problem after they arrived at AKT. Too busy in the five hours to be the great communicators and people focus types they claim to be?

In the controlling authority we sorted out getting the needed part in place to get the jet home nad back into the plot, and investigated how to recover the pax.

I cannot claim that the staff at AKT did a good job, but can remind you of another fact that has been forgotten. AKT movs staff are in the RAF, they will work for as long as they are told to. The big shift problem there is the civvy fire staff. When we have an aircraft delayed that is going to arrive at AKT after the published opening hours, we have to get PJHQ approval to make the station stay open. This is because we have to PAY from a BUDGET.

In finnishing can I just say in my 20 plus years I have never stolen from baggage, trashed anyones kit, deliberately sent anything to the wrong place or tried to be anything other than polite. This I would say has also applied for the vast majority of the other 850 members of my trade.

However, people here tell us we are all crap and use oxygen that should be for others. Keep telling us that, we might just start to believe you and live up to your expectations. How do you hold such a broad brush?

One happy customer, from the USAF site.

So the preceding posts must be the famous banter everyone is using these days. So witty and amusing! Do please have another torpedo sandwich Mr Wilde! And if Nurse can put all the toys back in the pram, we can continue.
Now where were we, oh yes the prologue, and what an appropriate one indeed! "Oh dear", I couldn't have come up with anything more appropriate. Well done Serf, you certainly lifted a lid on this one. The words Cat and Pigeons come to mind! But amidst all the hyperbole from all sides, I feel that there have been some thoughtful posts, but some worrying attitudes also.
The main thing that strikes me is the absence of any posts, to my knowledge, from serving movers. I understand that they have been posting elsewhere, but it would help if someone from amongst them could briefly say how they see this from their perspective without being abused for doing so. Exqcy, as a ex mover, gave us his thoughts on the present state of affairs, so come on boys and girls let's hear from you.

Why not read their thoughts for yourself........... They can be found hiding here at RAFMOVS.COM

>>>>>HERE<<<<<

Oooh update....It would appear even the RN are getting in on the act at Rum Ration.

Finger pointing.....:confused:
 

Like several others, i wasn't going to post here, but having read some of the inter-service, inter-trade and inter-stn rants over the past couple of pages - am i the only one that sees them a little hipocritical?

Several posts saying that "the AT fleet" needs to sort its act out as if BZZ and LYN are UK AT plc. WE ALL are AT-RAF-HM Forces (ok, so not quite Unit-Corps-God-Country :} ) at some level, and we are ALL trying to work under the most unprecedented political onslaught on the military in history. Like many here, i have worked with Movers on a daily basis, and to be honest, I do not relish the prospect upon my return to the AT fleet; they do have some of the worst manning levels in the RAF at the moment but at the end of the day "Manners cost nowt".

What i do look forward to though is the challenge of providing the best, safest and most timely service possible within the contstraints that are now strangling the forces as a whole.

By all means rant - that's what Pprune is for :O but please do not turn it into a broadbrush professional attack on fellow servicemen and women ....there is clearly a major problem and hopefully this letter can raise the issue to some form of action/conclusion.

I await the onslaught :ugh:

Uncle G

M747, Thanks for that, and to be fair quite a few of them seem to be taking notice about what has been said here, as well as arrse,rum etc. Maybe the technocrats could organise an inter forum thread one day?

UG Couldn't agree more, discuss but don't damn! My perspective on this is coloured by some 26 years with the airlines. The difference being, of course, that the Pax also pay your wages (in my case the little old lady in 13E!), and everyone is, or should be, aware of that. None the less the only reason we have an AT fleet, squadrons, ENG wings, MAMS, bases, Ops etc etc is because of the Passengers and the Freight. The only reason for the CAT system, TACEVAL, Medicals etc is the Passengers and Freight. They should be central in the mind of everyone in the AT game, wherever or whatever they are.

I remember many, many, years ago an RAF flight safety film called "Frustration" about a Javelin crew (told you it was long ago) ferrying an aircraft down the CENTO route. As the title suggests they were stymied by all and sundry. Mess stewards, Stores... well you get the picture! It all ends in tears in the Gan lagoon IIRC. Perhaps it is time for another such Cecil B deMille production focused on passengers!

Indra Dhanush RTB
 

A few observations from the AT trail that returned the majority of the people on Exercise Indra Dhanush.

A Tri* was used to trail 6 F3's back to UK via Al Dhafra and Akrotiri. Why the Tri* could had to go to Abu Dhabi Intl and Rhodes for the night stops is difficult to explain. I believe the Tri* did get back to UK more or less on time which was good news.

The C17 that carried 40ish personnel back to the UK via Al Dhafra, Akrotiri and Leuchars was reliable and the crew tried to accomodate the wishes of the numerous Waddington personnel on board, absolutely no problems with the crew whatsoever. Where there were problems for the crew was that they arrived in India not aware that they were to take pax back to UK, even though all pax had been told a week earlier that we were returning by C17. This may have had a bonus as there were no AT Sy to conduct our check-in at Agra. There were also very few movers on the aircraft too.

When the C17 arrived in Akrotiri, about 1730 local, the crew promptly disappered off (to a hotel?), all pax were loaded into 2 buses and dumped at two transit accomodation blocks. There was no briefing whatsoever on meal arrangements, or even what time we were to be collected the following morning for our onward flight. At no time were any Cyprus personnel anywhere to be seen. As far as I am aware there is still Officers and SNCO's messes in Akrotiri, so why were we given 8-man rooms in transit accomodation so far away from the messes?

The morning of leaving Akrotiri involved us reporting to the terminal 2 1/2 hours before take-off so that we could be checked in by AT Sy and movements, all a bit late really, and why could the Duty Free shop not be opened?

The C17 is capable of flying from India to UK directly, so why was it necessary for two night stops on the way, a waste of fuel, time and money?

Just a few observations, but at least everyone got back to UK more or less on time so we have something to be thankful for.

As for the exercise aircraft, at least two of the F3's never made it to Cyprus, and the E-3D made it back to Waddington on schedule.

Castle

ps, Serf, I am fairly certain that CAS and COS Ops flew to Delhi by civair.

Red Flag, February this year, Tommy T lands at McCarron to take us home but is subsequently u/s. Somehow, members of the crew happened to have tickets for the Aerosmith concert that just so happened to be on in Vegas that very night - tickets that had sold out a week prior to the concert!
We were stuck for a further 3 days - call me a cynic but something smelled of a very stinky kipper.:=
When we finally did get the nod to return to the UK, the action by the RAFP at McCarron, with regards to bag searching, was appalling - but that's a whole other story! :ugh:
M7 Sends