Tain Range.
 

Good Day,

I don't often input much to the forum but this topic is close to heart and wondered what your opinions on the matter are and if, god forbid, the range was to close as a result, what alternative options are available. This story is linked here :

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/...ds/5412432.stm

and in addition has also been aired on STV.

Now I'm aware a lot of it is hype and the campaign is the "lovechild" of a local councillor,(who also happens to be a property developer), but in reality the range is far quieter today than it was 10years ago, it closes at 10pm rather than 11pm or indeed midnight as it used to at one stage and there are far less aircraft in the inventory these days to utilise it.

Thoughts please, for or against.

Ranger

I can't really comment on the specifics of this one, but I can comment on the general theme, having been at a not so secret installation north of Aberdeen when the decision was made to close it down.

1. The locals are complaining about the noise. Fair enough, but in case they hadn't noticed, we are fighting 2 wars at the moment with rather a lot of ordnance being dropped - I think the practice is probably justified.

2. How long has there been a range at Tain? How long have these people lived in the local area? Anybody that moves into an area with the full knowledge and understanding that there are aircraft operations on going in the area has no right to complain. It's not as if we built the range last week or kept it a secret from anyone. You made your bed, you lie in it.

3. As soon as Tain does close, the other half of the local population will be up in arms about the MOD forcing small businesses to shut, the pub going bankrupt, Mrs Miggins pie shop losing sales, the death of the entire neighbourhood. I can't see this being any different.

I do not know how long Tain has been a range but before it was there was an airfield there, which must have generated some noise. As ranger says, there will be those for a closure and those against. It can't be much use for night flying in the Summer due to the lack of darkness that far North.

Some locals campaigned to get Scampton closed but when it was actually proposed and plans were made another lot came out with "SOS" banners = Save Our Scampton! The public don't speak with one voice so they are probably best ignored!

Link to Tain info = http://www.raf.mod.uk/news/ranges10.html

Can a local (civilian) resident make some comments?
If you were to take a poll of the residents of the three largest towns and villages affected by the noise from RAF Tain (namely Dornoch,Tain and Portmahomac) I am sure you would find a significant number of people would be in favour of its closure.
At a purely selfish level the range has only an adverse affect for the local area. For an area which relies to a large extent on tourism , the noise from the aircraft using the range is a significant issue. You only have to watch the reaction of a bus load of old biddys when a Tornado roars overhead to see it has an adverse affect.
The range itself doesnt make a significant impact on the local economy - it is not a base such as Lossie or Kinloss, which are now part and parcel of the local community.
The RAF needs to get out there and beat the drum as to why they need the range at all. i.e. it is a vital training resourse for lossie etc. and engage in a positive way with the local comunity.
It is no use willy waving and saying you should have known better than to live there. These towns are growing rapidly and with major developments in almost all villages near RAF Tain ,the complaints will only get louder.
On a personal note, I fully recognise the need for the range (especially now).But you will find very few locals who would miss it if it closed.
Cheers,
GM
p.s. RAF Tain has existed since before WW2 firstly as a training area,then a base for Hurricanes and subsiquently as a gunnery and bombing range. On good (or bad day depending how you look at it) there can be aircraft operating around the range for 3 or 4 hours a day with up to 4 aircraft operating at a time.

Difficult for the military to win any argument based on operational necessity when most of the population thinks we should not be in Iraq or Afghanistan. Maybe the answer is to make more noise there to reduce the rate of housing growth.

Wainfleet is also very noisy but the good folk of Lincolnshire are very pro RAF and, although there are some complaints, it continues to be accepted by the locals.

The "we were here first" argument doesn't hold up. You only have to look at the guy who bought that house at the end of Wittering's runway and then successfully sued the RAF because if Wittering wasn't there it would be worth more. He got in the region of £1 million IIRC.

GM,

Thanks for you response and objective argument.I'd like to respond to the points you have made if I may.......

1."If you were to take a poll of the residents of the three largest towns and villages affected by the noise from RAF Tain (namely Dornoch,Tain and Portmahomac) I am sure you would find a significant number of people would be in favour of its closure."
If thats the case, why then did only 100 people attend the recent Jet Action Group meeting in Tain? That is less than 5% of the population of the local area,hardly a significant number! Out of that 100 people there is only a small number of people who do actually complain about the noise.

2."At a purely selfish level the range has only an adverse affect for the local area. For an area which relies to a large extent on tourism , the noise from the aircraft using the range is a significant issue. You only have to watch the reaction of a bus load of old biddys when a Tornado roars overhead to see it has an adverse affect.
The range itself doesnt make a significant impact on the local economy - it is not a base such as Lossie or Kinloss, which are now part and parcel of the local community."
What evidence is there to say that the range has any adverse effect on the local area? I am sure the 20+ people employed by the range would disagree. The range is not open at weekends when local tourism would be at its height and when in Tain or Dornoch as a Tornado ever roared overhead?Both towns have large avoidance areas surrounding them. Tain range has been part and parcel of the local community since before WWII,how many of the people that actually complain about the noise have such extended links? In the past year alone Tain has hosted well over 500+ visitors of whom many visit the town afterwards,especially the excellent distillery.

3." The RAF needs to get out there and beat the drum as to why they need the range at all. i.e. it is a vital training resourse for lossie etc. and engage in a positive way with the local comunity."
It does!Meetings take place on a regular basis with local councillors and views are aired.Annually the RAF provides a significant involvement to the Tain gala,providing at no cost numerous displays including the Red Arrows,hardly an adverse effect on tourism! The range engaged in a positive way this year to assist the largest golf tournament in Dornoch's calendar but even that caused adverse publicity rather than positive!

http://www.ross-shirejournal.co.uk/n...ers_first.html

4."It is no use willy waving and saying you should have known better than to live there. These towns are growing rapidly and with major developments in almost all villages near RAF Tain ,the complaints will only get louder."
As you rightly say,the towns are growing rapidly although apart from the proposed new Asda store,I fail to see any major developments.This,regardless of the fact that the range is closeby.

5."On good (or bad day depending how you look at it) there can be aircraft operating around the range for 3 or 4 hours a day with up to 4 aircraft operating at a time."
From a local I find this encouraging,considering that the range is open from 9am-10pm Mon-Thu and 9am-2pm Fri,it just goes to show that a lot of the activity is going unnoticed,which can't be a bad thing.

Thanks again for your response GM.

Regards
Ranger

That's all very well.

But if the RAF was forced to close Tain,then surely it would move its GR4 sqns to a base nearer an AWR.

Can Moray literally afford to lose Lossie?

You are all looking at this much too deeply. (a) Close the range, win over 12,000 voters, pi$$ off 300 servicemen, or (b) keep the range, lose 12,000 voters and the win the begrudging thanks of 300 servicemen (maybe), Ooooh, I know this one...

Winning war counts for ****-all chaps, these fine upstanding politicians at all levels only understand winning votes.

It's my perception that this "action group" is simply an attempt by Allan Torrance to curry favour with a certain sizeable and possibly disproportionately vocal section of the "community" in this area, in a fashion that's also unlikely to raise a huge degree of opposition (i.e. lost votes).

That section being the "affluent incomers", often people retiring up here. _Local_ people (and yes, I am one) are in my experience fairly indifferent regarding the range; yes, it can be annoying trying to speak to customers on the phone with Tornados streaking "overhead" - and I do recall some momentary disruption to classes from the noise when I went to Tain Academy (the a/c do not have to be directly overhead to be disturbingly loud.) On the whole though, it's generally little more than occasional background noise which has been there in some form or other for practically everyone's lifetime.

Regarding tourism, I often see tourists standing on the seafront watching the bombing runs with great interest, and have very rarely indeed heard any negative comments from visitors about the range.

The only times I can really recall being quite fed up with the noise from the range have been when we've had a prolonged patch of heavy use by helicopters - I find that noise much more irritating and tiresome than the normal FJs.

My main complaint about the range though is that the most aesthetically pleasing Buccs have been replaced with relatively dull Tornados and F-15s:)

Hmm... an interesting one, but if you take as your starting point that Tain and Lossie are, in effect a package then it does lead towards a particular set of answers. But Tain and Lossie are in different local authority areas (Highland and Moray), and NIMBYs have never let mere rationality get in the way of a good campaign.

Having said that, as someone who has spent a fair chuck of an increasingly long lifetime well used to FJ noise, I was very struck on my last visit to Dornoch (and Bonar Bridge) by the fact that the noise of whatever was flying that day on the Tain range was very intrusive. Far more so than lviing near an operational base. It may be stating the obvious - but then the obvious is sometimes too easily missed - but has anyone looked at the detailed profiles of the operations at Tain to see if noise impact has been minimised?

Must have been intrusive at Bonar Bridge, as it is approx 13 Miles as the crow flies from Tain, At least in Dornoch you are only 3.5 miles as the crow flies.

Just think how noisy it would be if you actually went near the range.

Perhaps there should be an advertising campaign....

...MILITARY JET NOISE - THE SOUND OF FREEDOM...

If the Scots don't want the range, bring all aircraft down to England, plenty of ranges to go round.

Scotland needs England more than England needs Scotland.


Running very quickly.....

Closing a range opens up the airspace to other users. No longer will the jets have to fly fairly rigid paths to that the bombs land in the range. With the range closed they can fly where they like over the airfield and spread the pain. As the airfield, by definition, is free of dwellings, and aircraft avoid the towns, when it becomes class-G airspace it will be open season.

Without a booking system even the English air force would be free to use the airfield any way any day.

As they will not be based in Highland and there will be no local patsy to complain too the complainers will have to start again.

Better what you know.

Also how many tourists know about the range and deliberatelyavoid visiting the area? How many repeat visitors does Tain attract? In 10 years I was never encouraged to drive round Black Isle (no bridge) and venture farther.

Hi Ranger,
I have tried to address your points below.

If thats the case, why then did only 100 people attend the recent Jet Action Group meeting in Tain? That is less than 5% of the population of the local area,hardly a significant number! Out of that 100 people there is only a small number of people who do actually complain about the noise.

I agree only 100 people attended the meeting.You shouldn't dismiss these people out of had though.It only takes a good leader to change local indifference to outright opposition.Some of the local councillors may have their own reasons for backing this campaign.

What evidence is there to say that the range has any adverse effect on the local area? I am sure the 20+ people employed by the range would disagree. The range is not open at weekends when local tourism would be at its height and when in Tain or Dornoch as a Tornado ever roared overhead?Both towns have large avoidance areas surrounding them. Tain range has been part and parcel of the local community since before WWII,how many of the people that actually complain about the noise have such extended links? In the past year alone Tain has hosted well over 500+ visitors of whom many visit the town afterwards,especially the excellent distillery.

You are correct when you say the aircraft do not overfly Dornoch or Tain .They do not have to for the noise to be intrusive or in some case startling. You surely can't think that the constant noise from 4 tornados wheeling about the range for an hour at a time is not intrusive. I personally find the noise worse in Dornoch when the jets pass around the village than when they fly along the beach.

Tourism is not a weekend only event.The tourist season extends from May to October,peaking in July and August.I have personally heard visitors using the Dornoch Caravan site say they would not come back because of the noise. That is an adverse affect.If they tell their friends , that is an adverse affect.

It has been mentioned that some tourist like to watch the planes.This is indeed true.Many grab their cameras and head to the beach to get some pictures.After a few hours though they get bored with the planes.After a few days some find the noise wearing.

The new ASDA store in Tain will create more then 20 jobs and the complaints and objections to that will fade rapidly once it is there. How many of the staff at the range live locally?
20 jobs hardly constitutes the huge economic benefit that places like Lossiemouth and the surrounding area get from the presence of the base. I do realise we all benefit from Kinloss and Lossie, even up here.The perception is though that there is no local benefit to the range.


3." The RAF needs to get out there and beat the drum as to why they need the range at all. i.e. it is a vital training resourse for lossie etc. and engage in a positive way with the local comunity."
It does!Meetings take place on a regular basis with local councillors and views are aired.Annually the RAF provides a significant involvement to the Tain gala,providing at no cost numerous displays including the Red Arrows,hardly an adverse effect on tourism! The range engaged in a positive way this year to assist the largest golf tournament in Dornoch's calendar but even that caused adverse publicity rather than positive!

http://www.ross-shirejournal.co.uk/n...s_first.h tml

Yes you meet with the local councillors. How about some presentations to local groups, Young wives,WI whatever - slide shows ( god I must be getting old) etc. Show the RAF in a good light to the public. I assume the RAF has a press office who could handle all this.You must demonstrate a need for the Range. I know the RAF is fully commited overseas and need the range for vital training. If the range is vital to Lossie, then let people know. A local press campaign from the RAf saying the presence of the range will save the lives of soldiers and airmen in Afganistan and Iraq would silence a few voices.

A pity about the golf though. Damned if you do, Damned if you don't.

As you rightly say,the towns are growing rapidly although apart from the proposed new Asda store,I fail to see any major developments.This,regardless of the fact that the range is closeby.

Dornoch alone has planning permission for 100+ houses with more in the offing.Tain and surrounding villages are all expanding. There will only be more complaints unless the Range is presented in a more positive light.

From a local I find this encouraging,considering that the range is open from 9am-10pm Mon-Thu and 9am-2pm Fri,it just goes to show that a lot of the activity is going unnoticed,which can't be a bad thing.

You are right, I take very little notice of the noise, unless it sounds a bit different( anorak and camera to the ready). I will reiterate my last point. How many people would miss the range if it closed? Me for one but I suspect I am in the minority. You must accept that noise from the range has an affect on the surrounding area.The effort is needed to persuade people that it is necessary.

My limited experience in local government has taught me to beware of the few people who claim to represent majority opinion. Usually it is their own opinion and they have persuaded a few others to support them - that is why a so called action group meeting attracts only a very limited percentage of the local electors.

The only way to fight such people is to mount a similar but more successful campaign in support of Tain Range. Not an easy thing to do as people are more likely to support complaints than to support the status quo. However, one could make a start by persuading the employees at Tain and the businesses that benefit from their income and an active range to gather support verbally. One could also distribute a survey to find out how many people would really like the range to close, but not before those interested in keeping it open have launched their campaign.

Democracy is not best served by allowing those who shout loudest to triumph.

:ugh: :ugh: :ugh: :ugh: :ugh: :ugh: :ugh: :ugh: :ugh: :ugh: :ugh:

A quick suggestion for a Federation press release :

:mad:cks to the lot of you. War costs money and blood. So long as you :mad:wits elect corrupt, stupid, glory-hunting politicians you're going to have to pay through the nose for our training and put up with all the noise, inconvenience and danger that go with it. Every time ignorant snivelling self-obsessed morons are allowed to dictate training needs good men die, so if you don't trust us or want us, by all means shut down the Forces, force BAE Systems overseas and pull up the drawbridge on your dreary little magic kingdom.

Too scared to go that far ? Then you can pay for our training to be moved to the US, Canada, Namibia, Oz, NZ, Tahiti and anywhere else we decree fit for purpose. And as a first step we're shutting Lossie, Kinloss and Leuchars. The other bases go within the year. Of course, we won't contribute anything to your local economies, but hey, peace and quiet are more valuable.

Still too radical ? Then pay up and shut the :mad: up.


Too abrupt ?

As has been said before there is a simple answer.

1. Close Tain.
2. Move GR4's South (reopen Honington. If Marham can operate 4 sqns from 2 HAS sites then Honington can. Mind you, the Rocks will have to park their toys elsewhere if they are still using the old 9 and XIII sites. Or disband the Regiment!).
3. Move the Yellow helicopters to Kinloss.
4. Close Lossie.
5. Put JSF (assuming we get them) into St Mawgan.
6. Finally, advertise heavily in Romania, Poland etc as to the delights of the Moray area.

May also have a small added benefit of improving retention amongst the fin crews who currently have hobsons choice - middle of no where (ie Marham) or the ar$e end of no where (ie Lossie). Not saying Honington was perfect but better than Lossie by far.

Simple really. :ok:

OK, I'll bite: was that an original thought or just some content-free platitude you picked up somewhere? If the former, the rationale behind it would make amusing reading.

Fast forward ten years and
How very quiet is it now!
Is it not more economical to close Tain and use Holbeach instead - Lunch stop at CBY.
How many range sorties does a Typhoon make annually? not many if any!
On a similar line - what is the point of keeping Pembrey open these days - apart from C-130s landing on the beach?

Just a thought...in these days of rationalisation and cost-saving, I'm pretty sure the RAF and/or MoD will already have looked at plans for air-to-ground ranges and their usage.