Joint Helicopter Command........
 

With the advent of JHC - has the RAF been stitched......:hmm:

Like a kipper

Why do you ask that?

....... and has it taken you 7 years to figure that one out:eek:

I don't think so.

Yes we of the light blue have green jobs as our masters but of late all the high visibility operations involving JHC have used mainly RAF run assets, making us look better value when placed alongside TWA and the wheezing FAA fleet.

Surely at some point someone (possibly Gordon Brown) is going to ask why we have one highly professional air force and two highly professional pizza and bluely delivery services.

I see the AAC disappearing into the RAF the future, possibly to save the Army from loosing men and tanks in a budget cut and the FAA retaining only an anti-submarine/ship board operations element.

I think you need to have a chat with some AH mates just back from the 'stan to see how ineffective The AAC is.

Yes I will concede that the AH lads are doing great in Afghanistan but what is that, six a/c from the entire TWA fleet?

RAF - 'better value'. I just fell off my chair! Right, well, I suppose why deploy with 30 people when 60 will do.

Of course, why would you have a Maj/Sqn Ldr in comd of a Sqn when a Wing Comd will do. A lot better value - obviously. Silly me.

Oh and the 6 AH are the only AAC aircraft doing anything. The Corps hasn’t got Lx in Afghanistan, Iraq and Bosnia. Oh and the AAC doesn't support BATUS, Belize, Brunei, SF Ops, UK and foreign exercises and tasking and there isn’t a Defender Sqn either.

I hope the 'wheezing FAA fleet' will take a sharp intake of air as the Sea Kings operating in the Lebanon fly another SH task whilst the rest of the FAA undertake a variety of commitments in an impressive array of roles.

Anyone not in the RAF is just delivering fast food or Blueys though. Obviously.

THS

it is awfully tempting to quote what you wrote to me about Chinook vs Merlin - stop talking uninformed rubbish was about the gist of it I think.

AAC and RAF Rotary do 2 distinctly different jobs. RAF has its nose put out of joint when the AAC got Apache, but is now getting well on side seeing the genuinely effective cooperative missions in Afg. Personally don't see an argument for changing anything at the moment, seems to be working fine

THS
Is there any danger of you sounding like you know what you're talking about? I suggest you spend some time with some of the folks in the support side (DLO/DPA) of the house. As a result of moving all BH under land command, we now have to compete with tanks and other, relatively inexpensive, equipment for support budget. We're now a very expensive fish in quite a small pool. If we had remained in the DLog(strike) 'pool' we would have been quite inexpensive when compared with Tornado, Typhoon etc. The result is that as soon as project cost overun or another savings round is run, we're high on the target lists for any cuts, with minimal amount of room for horse-trading across projects.
Don't even start me on what being in Land command does for our troops when considering projects like SLAM.
So, in short, yes we've been stuffed (along with the AAC and FAA).
However, your fishing exped looks like it worked. :D

Its too easy sometimes.:}

Well, there's fishing and then there's blissful ignorance.

That was no fishing expedition. More like another typical example of sh!te posted by THS.

S_H

Well, tell us then!
 

Dundiggin'
So what prompted your intriguing, yet throw-away, opener? I'm just bursting to know! :hmm:

What an opener for debate... and THS and SB grace us with insight and comment normally reserved for the Oracle.

Current:

AH proves itself as a true Army platform and rightly sits on the gree side of the fence.

Future:

RAF SH fleet combined with AAC - working together - no noses put out of joint and Crabs able to get Blueys delivered on time and right location.

AT Fleet sub-contracted out to 'who-ever' but not run by the current bunch.

Typhoon Air Defence scrapped - who exactly is the enemy we are dog-fightin' against - put the money into more SH. Remaining a/c fit niceley into the new RN Marine Air Wing. Littoral ops and rum rations.

As we all know,and to quote the Oracle, "There will be a great victory!"

I'm off for breakfast...

I do love these forums and the self-important members that feel the need to comment on the validity of others' posts. OT - I wasn't trying to be insightful, rather I offered a brief opinion that the situation seemed to be OK at the moment based on current operations. As for THS's post, well, if we all agreed, this wouldn't half as interesting, would it? Go and have your breakfast and come back a nice smiley chap.

It would be nice to know what prompted Dundiggin's original post tho...

forwardassist and SB..........
 

I am not ignoring your requests as to what prompted the post.

- I am gathering information to give you a more informed response.:ok:

If I hold muybreath anu longer I will burst:E

Edit: Spelnlig

"Highly Professional Airforce"... as you seem to have ruled out the AAC and FAA, one wonders who on earth you might be talking about?

... no surely not, you cannot be serious?

Have you been in the JHF HQ building at Kandahar? Ye gods.
So many people (wearing light blue berets), so little to do. "I know, let's all sit round the big table and errr.....agree what we talk about the next time we'll all sit round the big table" :rolleyes:
Exactly the same is true of the flight line where the light blue berets have bagged everything, vehicles, tentage, hardened hangars etc, in the name of the AAC "because the RSM says so".
Last time I looked an Army RSM was (thankfully) absent from my chain of command.
Up at Bastion life is far simpler. Why? Because there isn't an AAC self-licking lollipop anywhere to be seen.

JHC
 

Before we go into a full blown peeing contest, I'd just like to say that I have been involved with JHC since it's inception. Some aspects work, some don't and sniping at our brothers dressed in green isn't going to change much.
I've worked with some shambolic people in my own service(RAF) and some first class individuals in the Army, and vice versa. Pigeon holing people on the colour of their beret only holds us back.
The AAC are doing a fantastic job in the Stan, as indeed is the SH Force and both deserve mutual respect for excelling at different jobs requiring different attributes. As a SH Mate, the British Army are our customer, and we forget that at our peril....ask 12 Sqn RAAF who kindly handed their SH to the Army after playing by the truckie fleet rules.
As for the RN, God I've tried to understand them, but they seem to exist to perpetuate their own PR and to maintain traditions developed when the earth was believed flat.

TR

you are so right - just how many people does it take to look after a few Lynx? Roughly the same as it does to look after the Wokkas and AH combined. Good job we have lots of spare space out there for them all...

sixbarrelldiplomat.

Stick it up your @rse.

Decided that emergency banter was all that was required to refute your post.

This just shows you that you think Defence Procurement is all about military need and capability - and not about thousands of voters keeping our politicians in a job ......... By the way, Father Christmas isn't real!

The JHC has been around for what, 7, 8 years? And for the first time in all those years, the Commander is something other than RAF and all of a sudden the Crabs feel threatened.

Did you expect the RAF to command it forever? The FAA don't drip about it all day with truculant comments and yet haven't had a sniff at the command.

No, not threatened, just a bit :ugh: :ugh: :ugh: with all the barmy Army nonsense that now permeates every aspect of our working lives with the possible exception of the colour of the head dress we wear although I suspect that's not far off.
For example, there are Landrovers running round Kandahar bearing (RAF) Sqn insignia of a well known mythical horsey type creature, being driven by and permanently allocated to Army folk who "forgot" to bring any MT to the party, but because we're all "joint" we have to give up our assets to bail out the pongoes.
Now let me ask you this....Do you think this arrangement would be so popular if the tide were going out instead of coming in?
And they have the audacity to say WE don't know how to deploy.:hmm:

errrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr ok!

So your gripe about the Army dominating the JHC (They do have more helicopters than the other 2 services put together) stems from you having to give up a Land Rover due to poor Pongo admin?

Ask the Green Types who the second class citizen's in JHF (NI) are; I can assure you that it isn't our light blue bretheren.

Not 100% sure it is JHC's attitude to light blue that is the problem, after all the RAF have been fairly represented in the 2-Star department since its inception. Is it rather that the mainstream RAF (STC) has kind of forgotten about the SH world? I can't actually find much written down about where rotary fits into AirPower doctrine at all, although I do believe there may be a project in the offing to study it and understand it.

Personally (and I am RAF) I think all the rotary should be under one banner, RAF or AAC, whichever is best suited (not intending to start a fight on that one), but it just seems barking to have 2 (3 if you count CHF) groups of people working so closely together under different rules/regs/terms of service etc. JHC is a bit of a compromise in that respect providing essential oversight of the different processes.

Errrrr, not exactly. The MT issue is an example of how the J in JHC apparently stands for "Army", not the sole reason.
Maybe the RAF should start operating tanks (not those piddly little things the Rocks had). Proper big Chally 2s. Then see who whinges.
Trouble is the Army in general firmly believe their own Be The Best campaign and think they can do absolutely everything and anything far, far better than absolutely anybody else, ever, in the known Universe.

TR,
It's not just JHC that has **** all "purple" in it.

I am sure you already have but try a visit to AIR STATION Basrah and see just how the Green Machine runs that place. Every "chinless lab owning tea from Fortnum and Mason daddy owns shropshire stupid stick carrying daft hat wearing" wonder drives the 2-300 yards to work in a brand new disco 3 but try getting fours jinglie buses for the Herc det:ugh: :ugh:

Happily the det is off to the "Deid" leaving behind all those quaint little customs like RSM's, this bars for permanent staff, CBA everywhere unless of course you are out jockstrapping, tent inspections by the Camp Com blah blah.........:rolleyes:

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

Sod whether or not the 'RAF' has been stitched. The question has to be if the RAF guys in JHC are better supported by their Brown-job Bosses than when the previous Light Blue hierarchy

A very interesting reply. So am I to understand from this that your argument is based on the fact that the Pongos (and presumably the FAA) should not even own aircraft let alone head up a Joint Command?

Mmmmm. Great argument:rolleyes:

No, my argument is based on the premise that the Army consistently poke the RAF for being a bit light weight yet man-power heavy, disorganised, afraid of a bit of bad weather and generally battle-shy, yet if one scratches ever so gently beneath the surface exactly the same can be said of a large portion of outfits like the AAC (note: a large portion, not all)
Army (very loud) "We're great! You're shi!t!" :}
RAF <sigh> "yes, ok, you win" :hmm:

To be fair.
They may, in fact, not always be great, but you are ****e.....

On the subject of JHC and cheapness, value for money,etc..why do we in the RAF still have commisioned officers flying SH when everyday I see SNCO AAC pilots doing the same job ? Okay, delivering blueys and cabbying the Brig about may be slightly diffrent to carrying a stick of paras but the 'driving' jobs just the same.:oh:

Good point - And the Fleet Air Arm for that Matter.

Or C130's, VC10's, Tri Stars, E3D's, FJ Backseaters etc etc.

Stand by to be told how 'special' they all are and how the Army has it all wrong.:rolleyes:





:E :E

Because if the MOD insisted that all aircrew in the Army had to be commissioned, the Army couldn't produce the quality of people to fill all of the cockpits .... or of course you'd have to get a bigger bunch of chinless wonders whose father's own some shire county, train them for a significant period, so that they could go back to their preferred regiments after one productive tour having had "jolly good fun flying "a toy" for a few years! Now that's a waste of money, training, time and effort - but hey, it's the only way that the AAC will get any understanding or representation in the higher places of the Army as they are not taken seriously. Infantry and tanks, that's what the Army do - AAC are the glorified General's taxi service! Leave the professional aircrew within the RAF to do the proper stuff whilst the green jobs enjoy themselves under the direction of the ignorant 'Teeth Arm' who continue to blah on about the uselessness of the 'Air Environment' because they can't see it on the battlefield, whilst simultaneously demonstrating they don't understand it at all!

You've got it all wrong.

Gas Fitter
 

A lot of the NCO aircrew in the RAF that I have met would be well up to doing the flying job, but for you it seems to be a question of " if they don't fit into the officers mess then they cant fly the aircraft".

History shows that the greatest achivments of the RAF would not have happend without NCO pilots.