Why do some Squadrons have letter after their number?
 

I'm curious why only a few squadrons have these letters such as 28 (AC) etc. I understand that they stand for Army Co-operation and Fighter etc but why do only some squadrons have them?

O learned gentry of Pprune please help me! :confused:

Because its a WW1 legacy and the closest thing light blue has to a tradition.

Apologies if this is teaching you to suck eggs:)
Also to do with the role of the Squadron. e.g. 41 Sqn Whilst flying Jaguars as a frontline unit 41(F) (even though the Jag isn't a 'fighter') Now that the FJWOEU (SAOEU in old money) has become 41 Sqn it is 41(R) Sqn. All OCUs (training squadrons) are (R) for reserve.

Nothing wrong with trying to get a bit of tradition, keeping Sqn numbers alive is a good idea in my book.

Thanks for the answers guys. Quite disappointed that they both came from the senior service (come on RAF lads!) but thanks anyway. :ok:

I did come across this:

"By the time the first expansion schemes were being implemented fighter and bomber squadrons had (F) or (B) after their numerical identity and Coastal Command had the suffix (C)...... However, in about 1942 squadrons dropped their descriptive title but continued to use both "official" and unofficial" names within the squadron nameplate"....

I presume dropping them was to do with security.

Surely 28 (AC) Sqn should be 28 (F) Sqn

F for ........... FREAKS!!!!!

Fly Friendly

Squadron 'Letters'
 

While agreeing with what has been said before I think the letters arose originally in WW1. Whether squadrons, formed for WW2, used the letters I do not know. As a red herring I will add that there were also squadrons with geographical associations although I do not know how these arose. ie No ??? (Gold Coast) Sqn and No ??? (Jamaica) Sqn, to name 2 that I recall.

A bit like 18 being a (B) squadron then.

I don't think they had B's when 18 was formed?

Obviously, I do stand to be corrected by some Squadron Historian, or other.

rigga

The geographical connection to colonies (as was) was often (always?) because they had "sponsored" an aircraft in the days when you could buy a Spitfire for about £25K. Certainly that was the case for No 72 (Basutoland) Sqn.......

18 Squadron did some bombing in WW1
 

No. 18 Squadron formed initially as a training unit at Northolt on 11 May 1915. During the Great War, it concentrated on bombing, and after the Armistice moved to Germany as part of the Army of Occupation before returning the UK in September 1919 and disbanding. The Squadron remained dormant until reformed in October 1931at Upper Heyford with Harts and then Hinds.
NOT a sqn historian, just a Googler:=

It can also show where the squadron is from - 609 (wr) is 609 West Riding from when it was set up and would only recruit from this area. This seems like it only applies to RAuxAF though....

WSOP

That's true, in AuxAF (then RAuxAF) parlance, the squadrons were 'county' squadrons e.g 609 (County of West Riding), 611 (County of West Lancashire), although the system produced some oddities such as 610 (County of Chester).

Possibly even more interesting, and something that is not well known, is that some regular personnel in the 1950s/1960s were recruited from a specific local area that allowed them to serve at the unit and live at home. Not sure why this was done, recruitment difficulties, perhaps?

'Local' Recruiting
 

I suggest that it might have had a lot to do with seriously grotty accommodation - from what I remember of the RAF in the 50s!

IIRC, that was called "Local Entry" or something similar, low-tech trade groups and lower rates of pay, leave etc. There were lots at Malta.

Some squadron badges also used to have "Fighter Squadron " or "Bomber Squadron" in the top arc rather than just "Squadron" as today.

Another suffix was TB for "Torpedo-Bomber" though I can't think of a particular sqn off hand, maybe I'm getting mixed up with the US Maureens.

How many actual, full-size front line squadrons do we have now anyway?

In addition to what A2QFI wrote, I know a few guys working there and they happen to be dead proud to be a 'Bomber' squadron.
Not quite sure about the last time a chinny dropped any bombs though.:)

[anorak] Strictly speaking, the letters shouldn't appear after the numbers. The Air Ministry terminated the practice of placing the role letter after the Sqn Number in May 1939.

The practice began in 1924, but by 1939, it became clear that placing the role letter after the number had security implications (this is at about the time that the Air Ministry realised that naming every officer serving with a particular squadron in the Air Force List wasn't very good OPSEC), and squadrons that changed their roles would then (in theory) have to change their role letter.

This was fine in theory, but squadrons continued the practice. The Air Ministry repeated the 'stop doing this, will you?' instruction in 1941, with a bit more effect - but it materialised again.

The letter is now a 'heritage' thing. While 18(B) hasn't seen a bomber type since it disbanded on Valiants, 5(AC) (or V(A)C if you want to break another Air Ministry edict on the correct presentation of squadron numbering - no Roman numerals allowed, even if employed in the squadron crest...) will have the correct identifier for the first time in some years, having had little to do with Army co-operation when equipped with interceptors.

The main culprits for upsetting the Air Ministry have been II(AC), who took note of the edict not to use role identifiers, said, 'Mmm. Interesting idea,' and ignored it, before doing exactly the same thing when the edict against using Roman numerals was introduced.

Associations in the unit title, such as 257 (Burma) and 139 (Jamaica) were also kicked into touch by the Air Ministry. There were several reasons for named squadrons, such as Gift Squadrons (the place named providing the cash for aircraft) and a concentration of personnel from a particular nation within a unit, e.g. 44 (Rhodesia). The Air Ministry noted that this could all get terribly confusing, and that there was a danger of the named squadron's associated town/country trying to interfere in the allocation of squadron numbers.

They banned the use of names in 1952, and again in 1962, when the realised that some units had ignored them in '52. 139 still used the 'Jamaica' title up to disbandment, and the Air Ministry were proved right about interference. When the Victor B2 force was disbanded, the Jamaican government wrote to Harold Wilson (IIRC) and made representations that 'their' squadron should be reformed as swiftly as possible. The Jamaican government was politely informed that the RAF wasn't going to alter its policy on numberpalte allocation, but that there was a chance that 139 would be reformed in the 1970s when the Buccaneer force came up to full strength. Although the number was considered, more senior numberplates were reformed/re-equipped with the Bucc. [/anorak]

Maybe its just the Harrier force but 4(AC) Sqn don't like people writing it this way and even their incident signals use IV. :ugh:

I thought this practice stopped in or after the First World War, though in fairness I'm talking about the Army. The reason being that if a locally formed unit took severe casualties, it had a dramatic affect on a town or geographical area.

At risk of thread drift, apparently the Navy has now moved away from naming ships after cities due to the same reason, i.e. effect on the morale of the local population should the ship get sunk. (e.g. HMS Coventry/Sheffield)

Many years ago at a secret harrier base in Germany (the last harrier one) the Stn Cdr was asked by a visiting senior civil servant why some sqns used Arabic numerals (eg 1(F) and 3 (F)) whereas others (IV(AC)) used Roman numerals. Said Stn Cdr, promptly turned to the young Climebear and tasked me to find out asap (great task - VIP visit and I'm standing in the middle of an airfield in Germany).

Several calls to the RAF Museum and the Air Historical branch revealed that the use of roman numerals was largely based on the whim of the respective sqn cdrs when the Sqns were formed/designed their crest. Out of such things, great traditions grow!

Where will this individuality end? if we don't watch out Sqns will be using the designs off bottles of beer for their crests;)

I must confess to having made a point of ensuring using II(AC) and 12(B) on all paperwork when they rotated through the corner of the sandpit I called home for a large chunk of last year. In conversation I tended to use,"...Two (oxymoron) Squadron."

Roman numerals aren't just a Harrier Force thing. XV(R) Sqn is pretty much always wiritten as such, except by people who forget the (R). On a tangent, how many sqns are precious about how their number is pronounced? Six-foot are alway "Six One Seven", whereas Tremblers are "Treble One", and both get mildly vexxed if refered to otherwise, though I know not why. At least I have heard a plausible explanation for why 216 Sqn are pronounced "Two Sixteen" rather than "Two One Six" or some such; it was 16 Sqn RNAS beofre the merger with the RFC, and the 2 was added to distinguish from any former Pongo sqn.

I did ask about the naming when young relative joined II (AC) Squadron and was told that it was II "because it's old" and that the "AC" stood for "Army Co-operation".

I now await confirmation of an oxymoron (although I have also been told they have a goodly collection of redundant armoured vehicles around the squadron headquarters).

(Edited to add. TMJ. Apologies for repeated use of oxymoron. I hadn't read you post).

The trouble with the Roman numerals is that they can be misread, particularly in the case of II Squadron. It is reasonable for the layman to ask is that two or eleven? CXX is a mystery to most of us who haven't had the benefit of a classical education!

As for squadron 'crests', I referred to them as such in a letter once. I received the mother-and-father of a bo***king from a senior. I have always referred to them as BADGES!!!:)

Would that be like 29 which is XXX instead of XXIX. The story I heard was someone was told to paint 2 X's and 1 X...:ugh:

Gainsey
 

You are not mistaken. Try the "Tatty Ton" - No 100(Torpedo Bomber) Squadron. Skull & Cross Bones emblem from WW1 (reputedly from a brothel sign), Sqn Motto in Malay. No roman numerals though. Wonderful times, though I never did see a torpedo!

Regards

Ginseng

There was a thread here some years ago bemoaning the inadequacies of the MoD's directory enquiries type service. Someone had asked to be given the number for 5 Squadron.

The operator denied that such a squadron existed (it was still flying the F3 at the time). To cut a long story short, caller ended up asking if the directory happened to have a 'V[ee] Squadron' (which, funny old thing, it did)...

My first squadron had just lost B-Flt when we got a new CO under centralised servicing. He wanted to know why we were 12 (B) Sqn with an OC A Flt when the sqn had only one flight. He was put right.

One time when sqn names were ordered to be dropped was during UDI. The edict to 44 Sqn came down from on high to drop their name. Henceforth they were known to everyone as 44 (Rhodesia) Sqn :}

My next was the Madras Presidency Sqn. We put an aircraft through there in 1973 but it was so 'sensitive' that the FO forbade any publicity.

Then is was two oh one. Finally VIII. I think at one point they were even 8(AEW).

At last a real Nephews thread in true Uncle Roger style and worthy of some serious PPrunery.

I think we've comprehensively shown where the letters come from (interesting that few have clung to the 'B' annotation but rather more to the 'F' and 'AC') and of course this was common practise when Beagle were a lad between the wars. The best excuse I've seen for sticking to a particular format is whatever was on the Squadron Crest as drawn by Chester Herald and approved by the Monarch of the day - If CXI(Fighter) was good enough for the King who am I to change it?

I also note fashions have changed - all the WWII old boys at my reunions spoke of two-nine while all from the jet age on talk of twenty-nine.

The blokes using the Typhie at Conners are on 3 (F) Sqn. The (F) denotes 'fighter' of course as befits the history of this famous numberplate. It is shown as Fighter on their badge too (it's not a crest it's a badge).

And yet. . . when I was on 3 in Germany in the 60s the badge didn't show the word 'Fighter', just said 'Squadron' in the top arc. Mind you, we had Canberra B(I)8s in those days. The (F) was re-adopted when they got Harriers (1972) at Laarbruch, and appeared on the badge again.

Now, in the squadron's Assoc, the Canberra blokes are accepted as 'heavy fighters' because we used a gunpack. :rolleyes:

.

44 - Zimbabwe Air Legion!

A nickname I coined in 1978 - some blokes even had t-shirts made in the USA with the slogan suitably emblazoned!

Impiger - squadron 'badge', never squadron 'crest'! Tsk, tsk!!

When I was on 42 Sqn in the late '70s they were just that - No 42 Sqn. Sometime in the '80s they became No 42(TB) Sqn and now they are No 42(R) Sqn. :}

In the RAF Club is a display of many squadron crests. Definitions of crest on the Web: (heraldry) in medieval times, an emblem used to decorate a helmet.

Since the badge is created by the college of heralds I submit that the framed and signed artwork is a crest.

When worn on a grow bag it is a badge: Definitions of badge on the Web:

an emblem (a small piece of plastic or cloth or metal) that signifies your status (rank or membership or affiliation etc.); "they checked everyone's badge before letting them in"
any feature that is regarded as a sign of status (a particular power or quality or rank); "wearing a tie was regarded as a badge of respectability"

The RAF Marham web site, the de facto online source for unit crests etc is:

RAF SQUADRON CRESTS, RAF STATION CRESTS, RAF UNIT CRESTS AND BADGES
RAF MARHAM CRESTS GALLERY INDEX

So there

According to the Chester Herald, it is indeed a 'badge'.....

Despite not being from the colony, my grandfather flew Lancs on 44(Rhodesia) Sqn and has always been very proud of the Rhodesia name. He corrected me once when I referred to it just as 44 Sqn.

IIRC the best collection of RAF Badges is on the floor of St Clements Danes, certainly makes you realise how small the RAF has gotten in recent years.

Points for discussion:
Should Harrier/Jag/GR4 Sqns use (B) or is this reserved for 'proper' bombers like Vulcans?
In these days of CAS should they be (AC) or would this be better for SH Sqns?
Does it matter about the letters for having traditions?

42 (Torpedo Bomber) Sqn...Now 42(R) Nimrod OCU.

I was told by a crusty old Pathfinder Master Pilot that the drawing/symbol in the middle of the badge is the crest. Together with the crown and writing and scroll etc it makes up the badge.

Ginseng, thank you for the confirmation. :)

Sorry, but both Pontius Navigator and Gainsey's crusty old Pathfinder Master Pilot are indeed wrong.

From the College-of-Arms:

Q. What is a crest?

A. It is a popular misconception that the word 'crest' describes a whole coat of arms or any heraldic device. It does not. A crest is a specific part of a full achievement of arms: the three-dimensional object placed on top of the helm.

If you look at the RAF College Coat of Arms here: http://www.cranwell.raf.mod.uk/Organ...e/COATARMS.htm, the heraldic terms are well explained.

Is it because squadrons do so little flying, they need the letter to remind them of the primary role ?

:)

Crest...Badge... BEags I was trying to communicate with the masses not the erudite few. Didn't mean to start a whole new debate. Still think that whatever the Monarch signed off should be accepted with honour regardless of a squadron's current role.

Precision, mate, precision.....:p

When did 'CXI' change to 111?