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-   -   Tony Bliar – What is going on with the Armed Forces? (https://www.pprune.org/military-aviation/227110-tony-bliar-what-going-armed-forces.html)

highcirrus 22nd May 2006 06:36

Tony Bliar – What is going on with the Armed Forces?
 
I’ve just read Allan Mallinson’s particularly cogent Spectator review of Cobra II: The Inside Story of the Invasion of Iraq by authors Gordon and Trainor.

Of particular chilling import is the review’s final section:


…… Before the invasion when there were suggestions that we might not be able to contribute, Rumsfeld famously described British troops as “work-arounds”. There is but a single reference to the Foreign Secretary:

While British officers were worried about the state of US planning, the civilians in Blair’s cabinet were more assured … Surely, argued Jack Straw, the United States would not take the momentous step of invading and occupying Iraq unless it was persuaded that it had a winning plan (for both the invasion and the occupation).

This faith-based assumption was repeated at every subordinate level, indeed.

The failure of post-war planning surely remains the unaddressed question for this country: the failure of intelligence and the botched assessments have been dealt with by official inquiries, fudged as they may have been. But the failure to anticipate the insurgency stands as the worst charge against Whitehall, not least the MoD, as well as of the Pentagon.

Even though victory was eventually ours in the Boer war, Kipling was trenchant in The Lesson. After the war there were brutally honest inquiries into the whole paraphernalia of defence. Without them and the consequent reforms, the British Expeditionary Force of 1914 would not have existed, let alone performed so crucially well. There are serious lessons to be drawn from the Iraq intervention, not least in the problems of asymmetric coalition warfare; and there are old ones to be relearned on the importance of mass. Yet the nation’s armed forces, the army in particular, just get smaller and smaller. What is going on?
Well Mr Bliar, what is going on? Can we perhaps have some brutally honest inquiries (instead of the usual pathetic whitewashes and your corollary litany of barefaced lies) into the whole paraphernalia of defence? Can we have a review of how disgracefully our forces, again, in particular the army, are treated by your government, when out in the field, carrying out your policies (which we all think are for your own personal aggrandisement)? Can we have a proper investigation as to why troops have not had proper body armour issued in Iraq and Afghanistan, why aircraft have not been fully safeguarded as far as current technology allows, against small arms fire and surface to air missiles? And can you also tell us why, once individuals are grievously wounded in the service of their country and in the furtherance of your policies, they are thrown on the scrap heap with little or nor compensation, following disgracefully expeditious medically discharged?

A Prime Minister is supposed to steer the country, as far as possible, on a reasonable course and in particular, nurture one of its most valuable and appreciating assets, its armed forces. You do neither and you disgrace your office.

doubledolphins 22nd May 2006 09:45

He must assume that he is safe today!

Anotherpost75 22nd May 2006 14:07

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/grap...2/publair1.jpg
So the Iraqis think they're the ones with
problems!!??

jstars2 23rd May 2006 05:51

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/grap...23/pwirq23.jpg
Youve got a job at No 10, any time you like
son - just as soon as we've dumped your
regiment

airborne_artist 23rd May 2006 06:35

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/g...3/ixd23big.gif

tonkatechie 23rd May 2006 08:19


Originally Posted by highcirrus
A Prime Minister is supposed to steer the country, as far as possible, on a reasonable course and in particular, nurture one of its most valuable and appreciating assets, its armed forces. You do neither and you disgrace your office.

:D Hear hear!:D

Skunkerama 23rd May 2006 08:59

Why on earth didnt his personel security team dump him in a local market and let him make his own way back?

Wyler 23rd May 2006 09:16

My own personal opinion is that the disaster that is Iraq will mean no future Prime Minister will consider military force in any similar situation. Far from proving the need to expand and modernise our Armed Forces, I think the politicians will see them as a mine field (no pun intended). Enter Gordon Brown, more cuts, back burner, hello UK Defence Force, soon to be European Defence Force, an entity designed to nurture and support the Civil Service.

How very sad.

nigegilb 23rd May 2006 09:48

erm, I have to say I think you are wrong. Why do you think he got rid of Jack Straw and replaced him with Margaret? Mr Straw was getting far too independent esp with his views about Iran.

Hang on to your hats......

Wyler 23rd May 2006 10:22

Blair is increasingly isolated. He can posture all he wants. His days are numbered and there is no way Mr Brown will follow suit. Even if he was that way inclined there are sufficient backbenchers (and Cabinet members) who will kill any such move stone dead.

I guess we shall see in the not too distant future.

nigegilb 23rd May 2006 10:40

Wyler, all you say is true, but we march to the beat of US foreign policy. Gordon Brown is an Atlanticist, he will surely be keen to call the "business as usual" tune to placate Blairites. I am not as optimistic as you.

Do not forget that Cameron, Hague, Fox and the rest of the Tory inner shadow cabinet are even more pro Iraq War. They could shore up a Parliamentary vote. Remember how the Tories voted last time.

Anotherpost75 23rd May 2006 10:53

Iraq has tested Mr Blair's interventionism to destruction
Daily Telegraph, Rachel Sylvester, 23/05/2006



There is a "new beginning" for Iraq, said Tony Blair as he flew into Baghdad in a military helicopter, unannounced and under cover of darkness. Well, maybe there is in the Green Zone.

Despite the formation of a government of national unity, the Prime Minister seemed rather reluctant to leave the safety of the heavily fortified haven and wander the streets without a flak jacket, as Iraqis do.

Even as he arrived in Baghdad, two bombs exploded, killing at least five people. More than 50 died in sectarian fighting this weekend.

Since February, when the Shia shrine at Samarra was largely destroyed in an attack blamed on Sunni insurgents, the Baghdad morgue has reported the arrival of 1,100 corpses a month.

In Basra, the British troops are back in helmets. Iraqis talk of civil war. The US ambassador admitted recently that the invasion had opened a "Pandora's box". There is growing speculation that a country which had been held together artificially for years by a dictator may have to be broken into three.

The national unity government is riven by division. Although Nouri al-Maliki has been sworn in as Iraqi prime minister, two of the most important ministerial jobs - defence and interior - remain unfilled. If this is a "symbol of hope", as Mr Blair said, then I would not like to see his icon of despair.

Of course the Prime Minister wants to get British troops out of there as soon as is practically possible. He does not want to have to face any more grieving parents than he has to.

Yesterday, he announced a phased withdrawal to take place over the next four years. But there will be no mea culpa. According to those who know him well, Mr Blair cannot admit, even to himself, that the war in Iraq may have been a mistake. "How can he?" one minister told me. "So many people have died."

What is perhaps more surprising is that the traumas - both diplomatic and military - in Iraq have not shaken the Prime Minister's belief in the more general philosophy of what he calls humanitarian interventionism..........

..........It appeals to the Prime Minister's instinctive sense of optimism and willingness to take risks; it fits with his view that the kaleidoscope was shaken by September 11. There is also a resonance in the missionary fervour with what one Cabinet minister describes as "the God thing".

When he flies to Washington for talks with George Bush this week, Mr Blair will restate his commitment to humanitarian interventionism and make the case that international institutions - such as the United Nations - should be reformed so that they would be more likely to endorse it.

And yet in Iraq it looks, at the moment at least, as if liberal imperialism may have been tested to destruction, and not just in the moral depravity of the Abu Ghraib jail.

The truth is - as increasing numbers of people who once supported the war now accept - reality is more complicated than idealism……….

…………It seems unlikely that Gordon Brown, if he becomes prime minister, will follow his predecessor's approach to foreign policy. He is more cautious, more controlling, more pessimistic. "Nothing will be the same - this is an accident of Tony and his time," one of the Chancellor's allies said.

Mr Blair, however, remains a true believer. The Prime Minister is a fan of the Richard Curtis film Love Actually, in which a youthful leader (Hugh Grant) falls in love with his tea lady - in fact, his staff recently got Martine McCutcheon (the actress who plays the tea lady) to deliver him a mug of tea as a joke.

In the film, the British leader wins public approval by telling the American president that there are limits to the special relationship. Mr Blair knows he could raise some applause by doing the same. But you can be sure that he will not have what he calls a Love Actually moment in Washington this week.
So when Dubya and Bliar embark on their next big adventure, will the disbandment of British Army infantry regiments continue at a pace, will “war crimes” show trials of British soldiers be a regular feature of that campaign, will the same “couldn’t give a damn” “New Labour” attitude to military personal and equipment armour prevail and will whatever firepower is deployed by British forces be fully available or will it stay under the wraps of ROE designed by the First Flatmate (Lord Chancellor, close friend and former flatmate, Lord Falconer of Thoroton)? God help us!

nigegilb 23rd May 2006 11:08

I cannot see Brown saying no to US requests for help in a future conflict. Quickest way to sort out Iraq is to partition the country into 3, then watch Iranian influence reveal itself in Southern Iraq. This could be a good time to lobby a future Tory administration. If they are so fond of deploying our Armed Forces around the World then how about some hard pledges on increased funds for UK Military. The Tories can sniff power. In their desire to cosy up to US policy makers after Howard's personal disaster, they will be even keener to please the US administration.

Stand by to stand by.

jstars2 23rd May 2006 11:18

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/grap...2/publair1.jpg
Look, If Cameron can do scruff order, so can I!!

Anotherpost75 24th May 2006 04:40

http://image.guardian.co.uk/sys-imag...ll512ready.jpg

Guardian, 24 May 2006. In tribute to Tony Blair's historic posturing....
er.....visit to Iraq.

Grum Peace Odd 24th May 2006 11:24


Of course the Prime Minister wants to get British troops out of there as soon as is practically possible. He does not want to have to face any more grieving parents than he has to.
Just how many grieving parents has he faced?

JessTheDog 24th May 2006 12:40


Just how many grieving parents has he faced?
None. He has not visited any of the wounded or bereaved. I suspect he is too cowardly to face them and would rather schmooze with millionaires.

If I saw him in the street I would break his jaw. Scum.

nigegilb 24th May 2006 12:48

He brings in law that allows hijackers to go free, rapists and murderers to stay in the UK. He orders the Military to go fight a war in Iraq which, according to a lawyer chum of mine in the Hague is widely considered illegal, then drafts further legislation to bang away military personnel for life if they disagree with him.

His refusal to speak to the bereaved relatives and wounded soldiers smacks of a person who has no honour and little understanding of ultimate sacrifice.

SASless 24th May 2006 15:13


can you also tell us why, once individuals are grievously wounded in the service of their country and in the furtherance of your policies, they are thrown on the scrap heap with little or nor compensation, following disgracefully expeditious medically discharged?
Our Veterans Administration (va.gov) is not perfect by any stretch of the imagination but we do a very good job of assisting Veteran's who have been wounded or injured while on Active Service.

Our veteran's organizations, American Legion, Veterans of Foreign Wars, Disabled American Veterans all work with the VA to assist recently discharged Veterans in registering for, and gaining compensation and medical treatment.

Perhaps, you might borrow a page from our book on this...it was a long hard fight over here which unfortunately still goes on. It will require a lot of dedication and hard work by Veterans to bring the issue to the public and your MP's to the degree something changes for the good. It takes organization and active groups of Veterans to acheive success however.

Look back at the fights we had over PTSD, Agent Orange, Gulf War Syndrome, and Rehab funding. War has some nasty after effects upon the survivors and they deserve longterm support and assistance from the government that sent them in harm's way.

jstars2 26th May 2006 11:12

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/grap...5/26/wus26.jpg

Another fine f**k-up Stanley!!

rafloo 26th May 2006 13:10


A Prime Minister is supposed to nurture one of its most valuable and appreciating assets, its armed forces.
No he isn't. Thats not the role of the PM. Which PM has ever nutured the Armed Forces... ?

Balfour may have done a little bit but apart from him...nope. The PM isn't supposed to nuture the Armed Forces...he is supposed to send us off to war and conflict. Thats what we do, Thats what we are here for. Not for nuturing.

highcirrus 31st May 2006 02:18

Hmmm… You might be missing the bigger picture here, rafloo. Sure Bliar is not going to start showing his wonderfully cuddly and fluffy “Nu Labour” care and compassion towards individual service members or units (he’s too gutless to come face-to-face, especially with the casualties of his messianic ventures). That’s not what I meant by nurture.

My words were meant to imply that Bliar (or any other PM) has a duty of care towards armed services manning, morale, equipment, infrastructure and continuity. He has consistently shown his view of the services as “on-tap”, “throw-away” commodities that do not need thought towards, or consideration of, their finest traditions or fighting efficiency and has, hence, consistently shirked this fundamental duty of care. Moreover, in these times of ever increasing international danger, he has shown no sense that the assets he controls are of rapidly appreciating value, being the only consistently reliable bulwark we have, against an almost daily terror threat growth.

Bliar’s sworn enemy, Brown, has an even more dismissive attitude towards the services and, if anything, as allocator of service funding for the past nine miserable years, is even more derelict in his duty than Bliar. The sooner this shower of liars and incompetents is out of office, the better for both the country and the services.

Anotherpost75 31st May 2006 07:00

http://images.scotsman.com/2005/08/09/en09mikb.jpg
I've seen the future .... and it's brown!!

FormerFlake 31st May 2006 07:22

As alway, all this has been covered by Jonathan Lynn 20 years ago.

"Things don't happen just because Prime Ministers are keen on them. Neville Chamberlain was keen on peace."

The reason for going to war?

"The problem of the Ministry of Defence is that in peace time the three armed forces have no one on whom to vent their warlike instincts except the cabinet or each other."

The reason no one stopped the war?

"In government, many people have the power to stop things happening but almost nobody has the power to make things happen. The system has the engine of a lawn mower and the brakes of a Rolls Royce."

The reason MPs always get it wrong:

"Being an MP is a vast subsidized ego-trip. It's a job that needs no qualifications, it has no compulsory hours of work, no performance standards, and provides a warm room, a telephone and subsidized meals to a bunch of self-important windbags and busybodies who suddenly find people taking them seriously because they've go the letters 'MP' after the their name."

Make up your own mind on these:

"There was nothing wrong with appeasement. All that World War Two achieved after six years was to leave Eastern Europe under a Communist dictatorship instead of a Fascist dictatorship. That's what comes of not listening to the Foreign Office."

"Britain should always be on the side of law and justice, so long as we don't allow it to affect our foreign policy."


"Press statements are not delivered under oath."

"The Foreign Office aren't there to do things. They're there to explain why things can't be done."

"People have said a lot of unpleasant things about the Foreign Office, but no one has ever accused them of patriotism."


jstars2 31st May 2006 11:44

Earth calling Planet Freebie – In the Chav-Berlusconi Constellation
 
http://www.vg.no/bilder/bildarkiv/1092817048.11488.jpg
Ok Tony, they’ve got your measure and it seems official:


Being an MP (and especially a PM) is a vast subsidized ego-trip. It's a job that needs no qualifications, it has no compulsory hours of work, no performance standards, and provides a warm room, a telephone and subsidized meals to a bunch of self-important windbags and busybodies who suddenly find people taking them seriously because they've go the letters 'MP' after the their name.

highcirrus 2nd Jun 2006 13:09

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/g...2/ixd02big.jpg
Bliar to try the same mount?

Tigs2 2nd Jun 2006 14:22

What amazes me after reading all the posts (and agreeing with them!)is WHY did we vote him back in? :( Anybody, any party would have been better. WHY WHY WHY?? Its the biggest self hack in history.

pr00ne 2nd Jun 2006 14:33

Tigs2,

Simple really, more people disagreed with you than agreed with you! This board, and the serving and ex-serving folk on it are not indicative of the population of this country, you are a minority, and a very small minority.

Also, the fact that there is no decent or credible alternative is the more worrying factor. I am very firmly left of centre in my political views but I am NO fan of Blair, as a trawl of my posts will reveal. The fact that there IS no credible alternative is a huge condemmnation of the political sterility at large right now and very very sad.

Tigs2 2nd Jun 2006 14:51

Pr00ne

Alas, tis true, we are but numbers.

ThomasT 2nd Jun 2006 15:01

All those stupid guys who joined the armed forces to kill, (not defend UK as it is NOT threatened) will be Depleted Uraniumed as soon as tey arrive in Iraq. Bout a five year death sentence without reprieve. What you sowed, you shall reap.

ThomasT 2nd Jun 2006 15:06

And dont tell me about joining the forces to save UK from terrs. The Cambridge Evening News interviewed an injured survivor of the London blasts, who saw NO ONE at the blast location. The metal around the blast hole was bent UPWARDS. The policemean escorting him off, told hime to walk carefully round the jagged edges. It just happened that an Israeli company does the UG security and the cameras just happened to be OFF at blast time. Now they found bomb making stuf. What a load of BS to keep you cowering.

Confucius 2nd Jun 2006 15:17

Does the 'T' stand for 'Tit'?

ThomasT 2nd Jun 2006 15:19

This is the same BS as a skinny arab who couldnt solo a cessna 172 with 600 hours in his logbok, commandeering a boeing, on which he had no booking, with box cutters, flying down the usa/canada corridor were norad and faa have no coverage, KNOWING he would not be intercepted, finding the fiveagon, doing a 280 degree descending turn at 500 mph, selecting the naval intel section, skimming across the lawn at 2 feet, exploding the 500 kilo explosives we always carry in the nose cone, taking the whole ship through a ten foot hole without marking from engines or tail on the building, vapourising all the part numbers on every component, still leaving behind 100 plus DNAs for evidence,which are destroyed normally at 100 degrees etc etc ad nauseum.

ThomasT 2nd Jun 2006 15:22

Confucius him say.. truth very upsetting, better stay with our conspiracy theories about terrs. everywhere, as they make us scared. We join up now fight them. Anybody no like our ideals must be tit. Confucius him say ''round asnd round goes the big wheel.' He right. He bomb civilians, the DU he dp bomb his lungs.

ratty1 2nd Jun 2006 15:26


Originally Posted by ThomasT
This is the same BS as a skinny arab who couldnt solo a cessna 172 with 600 hours in his logbok, commandeering a boeing, on which he had no booking, with box cutters, flying down the usa/canada corridor were norad and faa have no coverage, KNOWING he would not be intercepted, finding the fiveagon, doing a 280 degree descending turn at 500 mph, selecting the naval intel section, skimming across the lawn at 2 feet, exploding the 500 kilo explosives we always carry in the nose cone, taking the whole ship through a ten foot hole withpout marking from engines or tail on the building, vapourising all the part numbers on every component, still leaving behiong 100 plus DNAs for evidence,which are destroyed normally at 199 dereess etc etc ad nauseum.

Are you lost? Its just that you wrote the exactly the same thing in the private flying threads about flying into the sea.:uhoh:

>>>>>>Here<<<<<<<<

ThomasT 2nd Jun 2006 15:28

Nah, not lost, just needs to be inserted here. It was also relevant at the Kennedy crash into-the sea post as that was an execution from the same demented bunch who gave you nine one one, and madrid and london-.and Iraq, which is going well., as Iraq is to keep oil high, build big bases near Iran, to subdivide the country into 3, and to stop them trading oil in euros.

ratty1 2nd Jun 2006 15:30

Just wandering why you wrote it twice in two different threads?:confused:

Roadster280 2nd Jun 2006 15:33

OK Thomas, I'll bite. I'm in a bad mood today anyway, so what the hell.

All those people who joined the forces (certainly UK, US, all non-conscripting NATO countries) did so in order to defend democracy. Their right to freedom. That's what they signed up for, voluntarily. They may have had personal agendas (learn to fly/drive/fix things/cook(!)/stack blankets), but they all signed up for the overriding prinicple of defence.

And yes, some people probably did join with bloodlust in mind. But I'll guarantee you that either they changed their mind by the end of training, or didnt make the end of training.

I see you live in Vienna. Bit of a mixed bag of history there. Everything from Imperialism through Nazism, Communist uprisings, neutrality to democracy.

Good luck on here trying to attack our ethos anyway. You'll need it.

Roadster280 2nd Jun 2006 15:40

While writing my post, I note there's been several others.

In 1999 I visited NYC. Two beautiful gleaming silver towers dominating the skyline.

In 2002, I revisited. Towers not there any more.

In Jan 2006 I visited again, and happened past the site, just a big hole in the ground.

I'm afraid the conspiracy theory does not hold water for me.

My eyes do not lie.

ThomasT 2nd Jun 2006 15:41

I lived here only a few years, roadster, but I am from Kenya and Hong Kong, Brit citizen, chew on that one... Seems most on this forum only digest b(BS)c or sewerNN. Try rense.com for a different view of freedom democracy etc. re your views on these arabs, go and read rense and then come back in a week. You may find the conspiuracy theory is the official version. And why havent you challenged a single point on my essay re the fivagon boeing??? All based on photographic, eyewitness, and radar data...and why does the FBI refuse to hand over the remaining 84 security tapes in their possession??


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