Abolish the RAF, says Col. Tim Collins
 

http://www.thefirstpost.co.uk/index....ID=1&subID=482

Taking a leaf from 'Lions, Donkeys and Dinosaurs', no doubt.

Being a bit of a Tim Collins fan, since he was treated terribly by the Army High Command, I am astounded by his opinion of a future UK "Air Force-less" Defence Force.

:confused:

What a load of drivel. His argument seems to be transfer all the personnel and assets to the Navy/Army. And the cost saving woud be???

Excellent idea:

What redundancy terms are we talking about? For I joined the RAF not the MOD, not the governement, and if my "company" goes bust, I expect a fair and descent settlement. This may sound stupid, but no more so than the silly mans initial comments. Too much Irish Mist in his household methinks.

"attack on the UK homeland is no longer conceivable because our potential enemies just do not have the reach"

Tell that to the WTC workers.

"The Army would absorb all Special Forces and helicopter operations"
Yeah, give the army Pumas, Chinooks, Merlins & Seakings, I'm sure they'd get 4 different types operational in no time, just like they've done with the Apache???

Please remind us where and who instructs the RN & Army's pilots? RAF Shawbury & RAF Linton-on-Ouse is it not Mr Collins?

"The emphasis would be on the ability to launch from aircraft carriers and limited overseas bases as opposed to high-tech interceptors for a war - the Cold War - that is long over."

Try intercepting hijacked airliners over the UK with RN strike aircraft based on a carrier in the Gulf.

What planet is this guy living on?

Really, Sir? I would suggest that recent history says otherwise.
I guess then that all the troops in theatres various, and all their equipment, got themselves there, did they? And that they magically disappear from one location in theatre and reappear in another, in a safe and timely fashion? Try getting a civilian contractor to do in-theatre airlift.

Typical that you think the RAF is all about fast jets. Air Transport is the key to EVERYTHING you do, and Tactical Air Transport is something the Army AND RN have absolutely NO experience of. Without it, you can do very little. We have decades and decades of unique experience in this vital field - not something that can be taught simply by transferring the AT fleet over to the other services for a few years.

Given that it's taken the Army several YEARS to figure out how to slot Apache into the modern way of using airpower, I don't hold out much hope that they'd have ANY chance of running the lot.

This man displays the typical Army level of understanding of what the RAF does (ie, none). It would take YEARS to teach the Army how to operate an air force on the modern 'battlefield' - perhaps less so for the RN, since they have SOME experience of air power - but still, this translates into SPENDING money, not SAVING it! Given that we already struggle, the manpower reductions would be minimal. It would just mean the Army & RN absorbing what we already have - which is pointless.

'EEJIT!', as the man himself might say.

Wow! Hero to Dog Doo in a flash!

Perhaps he is suggesting the RAF could do better for itself and the Nation's Interests if it (the RAF) changes it's focus from holding a single service view and change to a multi-service (Joint) view. Rather than refighting the Battle of Britain over and over....maybe it should consider itself a service organization dedicated to modern needs and demands.

Maybe the Army could do the same, since in their view, 'Joint' means 'Army'. They still think that Cavalry charges and artillery can win the day.

Don't fight harder, fight smarter. Of the 3 services, the RAF is the most modern (in doctrine, not necessarily equipment!) the most flexible and the most willing to accept change and new practices (hence we were the ones shafted to beta-test JPA).

I agree, the retired Colonel's proposition is rather nonsensical, however with respect to the above point, the RAAF gave its Chooks, Rockies and Blackhawks to the Army some years ago and it seems to have worked; most of what they did was Army stuff anyway, usually under Army tactical command, so it seemed logical (from an operational point of view) to just let them have it. It meant that the Army didn't have to 'request' tactical air assets from the RAAF and possibly end up competing for them against some other requirement and maint schedules, etc. could be worked to Army requirements more easily.

Fixed wing has stayed firmly with Ronnie.

I think perhaps he should stick to what he knows.

Has he ever been to RAF Brize Norton? Has he seen how many people it takes to operate the AT fleet? Yeah I'm sure we could just lay them all off and leave the transfered against their will pilots and a few RLC storemen to run the show.

His ignorance is outstanding. I do hope he isn't an example of the best of Sandhurst.

Taildragger67 - But did the personnel go across with them?

I don't believe many members of the RAF would be willing to re-badge as Army and its not something you could force large numbers of people to do.

It wasn't so long ago the army were scouring the RAF for personnel willing to re-badge to help with their Apache problem. From what I understand they didn't get too many volunteers.

Why not disband AAC as the RAF can fly Helicopters, Disnband ARMY,as it is not Royal, and replace it with an enlarged RAF Regiment, and as 1 Sqn have plent of Carrier experience, give the Carriers and FAA to the RAF and as for the rest of the little ships, well, a lot of people sail boats at weekends, I am sure the RAF can find a few who need little training, so there goes the Army and Navy.

Royal Marines would have to stay, as they would kick ***** out of the Rock Apes if they went anywhere near a them.

Better still, contract the all services out to the private sector, and see if they all go on strike when JPA doesn't pay the contract.


Time to vote out Blair and Co, and time to spend all our 3rd world debt cancellation charges and other 'useful' donations to far off corrupt countries on all defence forces of the UK.



Days to do are getting Few.

The previously well-respected Col is obviously used to running his show with the help of a competant NCO. I suggest he consults him before shooting his mouth off next time.

I have a lot of respect for Collins' work relating to GW2 but this latest drivel is an absolute bunch of arse. If he really believes what he says, his ignorance of airpower is appalling and typical of most pongos. I would, however, expect more from a man of his seniority. I suspect though, that his comments are deliberately controversial and made purely to raise awareness that the Forces are on their knees with commitments increasing and funding decreasing. The cutbacks and contractorisation will keep coming until something breaks - badly. And I have a feeling we're now on the verge of that happening.

Reading the above a certain line from Hamlet springs to mind:
The lady doth protest too much, methinks
:) Wiz

Being a colonel he is presumably a graduate of the Army Staff College. Anybody had a squiz at what they're teaching there nowadays??? Just a thought!

So . . . what is the role of the RAF?

Bet the army wants the transports and choppers - and why not? The RAF can only use them for ferrying the Army where it wants to go (if they beg hard enough - see http://www.arrse.co.uk/wiki/The_movements_game ).

Wacky
 

And presumably more Melchetts than Regiments nowadays ???

Probably just getting his own back for having his bags smashed or lost at some point :ok:

Having just finished reading the book, Lions, Donkeys and Dinosaurs and the view that the three service arms are more concerned with maintaining the status quo than actually cooperating, the views expressed within this thread just reinforce it. It is amazing that people are so partisan.

Some joined up thinking wouldn't go amiss. I wouldn't advocating getting rid of any capability but having separate companies to deliver a service doesn't seem to work....

The guy has a huge future on Wall Street. Everyone knows mergers result in vast synergy and cost savings, because all the overhead connected with the merged activity goes away POOF! when I wave my magic fairy wand...

I think you'll find that RN, Army and RAF rotary pilots are all trained together by the Defence Helicopter Flying School. Thus the Army trains RN and RAF pilots, the RN train Army and RAF pilots and the RAF train RN and Army pilots. It's joint and works very well. It might be based at an RAF station, but the RAF most certainly not train RN and Army pilots. :yuk:

Off the top of my head and i am sure someone can correct the following quote to word perfect, i think it was Churchill who said

"Airpower is the supreme expression of military might, and fleets and armour, no matter how important must adopt a subordinate role"

Mr Collins, you need Armour to hold land, but you need Airpower to take it. You hold the land, and you do it well, but we take it in the first place, and we do that very well. Each to their own eh! And there was me thinking what a good chap. By the way all you peeps out there, I have actually been told by a journo that the speech given by Mr Collins, as inspiring as it was, was written for him by a journo in the field(i know you cant believe everything they say, but the comment definitly deserves some investigation). I would never normally have mentioned that as i though he was a top chap, but after such a comment concerning a fellow arm of the military, then if its true, it should be investigated and published. I bet George Dubya would take the speech off his wall then. Credit where credit is due Mr Collins.

It's alarming that someone as respected as Col Collins has come out with this drivel. You might expect it of an embittered ex-RN lieutenant, but not someone who seems to have stood up for the Forces repeatedly.

Unfortunately, with the current Nu Labour culture of cutting everything that doesn't employ nurses or "community support wardens", the RAF's chiefs have actually felt the need to make a case for keeping a separate air force. Look at Sir Jock's comments in the forword to the first Spirit of the Air magazine - all about the importance of a separate air force. Similar comments have been made by Sir Jock and Sir Glenn, as well as ACM French.

Col Collins should think carefully about the impact his comments will have on the media. He should also consider the legal difficulties involved in "re-badging" servicemen who are under no contractual obligation to transfer to either the RN or the Army. This is one of those areas where employment law is on our side.

Let's see, he's famous for making a speech. He's now gone and we seem to manage quite well without him. His opinion is as valid as the next man's, but I've often found the next man knows bugger all about anything.

It's been my experience that the Army thinks it can take on any task or any challenge and do it better than anyone else. Sadly, Deepcut is fresh in the news, the Apache debacle rolls on and Col Collins is never far from a TV camera.

Perhaps Col Collins should consider the savings and efficiencies to be had by amalgamating his own Service before considering the amalgamation of the 3 Services. Just how many different uniforms are there in the British Army these days?

Do the different Regiments pool their equipment on exercises these days?

No "I" in Team
 

Tigs dear fellow....Air Forces have never taken an inch of ground ever. They never shall.

Air Forces just as Naval Forces work together in conjunction with Land Forces to facilitate the taking of enemy ground.

One can only take possession of that ground that is swept by an extended rifle with bayonet afixed. Air Forces provide the defense and armed support of the Troops on the ground. Artillery and Armor support the Infantry by means of their firepower and ability to maneuver. Without Sea Power, there is no possiblity of maintaining control of strategic assets that support the ground and air operations, and strategic industrial base....there is no hope of winning a full fledged war.

Hate to burst thine bubble but the RAF is but piece of the puzzle and does not reign supreme in the order of battle. The concept of Jointness has to be in more than words only. The current whinge of late at this forum has been about how the Navy does not need the proposed carriers and how the RAF can do it all. That is just plain silly.

Collins thinking the RAF should be abolished is just as silly.....but has some merit to the extent the RAF along with all of the other services should find a way to work together particularly during this time of shrinking budgets.

What you guys are going through is the same as the United States did following WWI, WWII, the Korean War, Vietnam, and Gulf One. I would suggest you might take a page out of our book on the concepts of modern warfare. (certainly not all of them...but a few would help)

No single service is capable of winning the war....it takes a joint and coordinated effort. First thing you folks need to do is determine just what it is you are wanting to do and how you will accomplish that. The days of Empire are gone, no more Battle of Britains are coming, Trafalgar is done....the Russians have gone broke. Just what kind of wars and/or conflicts are you going to have....figure that out and then determine how to structure your forces to win that fight.

:=

Sasless
Dear chap nice to communicate with you again.
I never said that Airforces take land, the person who said it was way above my payscale, Churchill again.
By taking land what was meant that you need airpower to create a situation wherebye ground forces can move in and hold the land. This was exactly the purpose of the bombing during Gulf 1 and likewise in Gulf 2. As many assets as possible that could be considered a threat to our ground forces were taken out, for obvious reasons. What would have happened without the coilition airforces during Gulf 1?? We need the Navy and the Airforces to create these situations. I also think that you either are not aware of, or underestimate the amount of Jointery that actually exists within the British Military today. I have no gripes with the Army or the Navy, i think they do an awesome job, but for someone such as Collins to suggest that in modern warfare you can do without an airforce is total buffoonary.

My dear chap do you mean 'manoeuvre'? If you do, then one of the lthings that is least noticeable about 'the manoeuvrist approach' is large number so troops taking and holding ground. Manoeuvre means moving one's forces is such a way as to multiply their effectiveness and ability to inflict tradition. Thsi theory is not new. Sun-tzu wrote that the acme of skill in war was to subdue the enemy without fighting. this is the manoeuvrist approach in its purest form.

I agree with you general thesis though; however, air forces do more than . They also provide, inter alia, mobility and ability for a commander to attack targets (kinetically and non-kinetically) far beyong the relative geographic limitations of land forces (I resist from using the term deep because of its applicability to the non-contiguous battlespace).

I wouldn't hold up the US as an example of fine Joint working though. The Invasion of Iraq (a superb piece of manoeuvre by the US Army and US Marines) highlighted significant problems in air/land coordination between the US Army and the USAF. The USMC managed in significantly better; but their organic air is only, really, for CAS so it is not the elixir that some believe it to be.

We all have a long way to go, they key is identifying that we have only just started on the journey.

There are currently 400 majors on the 9 month ICSC course at the Defence Academy. If the Army can do without them for that amount of time surely most or all of them could be made redundant!

Why do apparently sane Lt Cols think like Collins does?
What one has to understand is that a great deal of the middle ranks of the Army can't stand the RAF. They see the RAF hierarchy as obsessed with prolonging the fast jet pilot elite, to the detriment of common sense. There is an element of truth in this - sustainability of the warfighting GD branch is touted as a key issue by many near the top.
The Army don't understand why the RAF bought so many Typhoons when the AT and helicopter fleet are too small, old and overstretched. Not only that, the movers at Brize do not help our cause and the Army's perception of us as a bunch of jobsworths persists. One or two high profile incidents recently reinforce this perception. The usual whinges about crew duty time, hotel rooms etc are perceived as symptomatic of a lack of sympathy for the troops at the frontline. There are also still a lot of vastly overweight airmen and officers around that do nothing to add to the image problem that the Service has been trying to lose. The wheels are aware of this and that is why teh PEdOs and Rock Ape 1 stars have been unleashed on teh unsuspecting rest of us to invent new fitness tests etc. Additionally, a lot of the infantry etc don't understand the value of expensive ISTAR equipment and are only interested in 'boots on the ground'.
As a result, some of the staff officers in town are almost paranoid about Army plots to undermine the RAF. The truth of it is probably that the higher reaches of the Army have got enough problems such as recruiting without taking on issues such as QRA, AAR etc. But the chance to hive off the whole of the helo force (especially of SAR is privatised) may just be too tempting........

Hey, relax, he was asked for a contentious piece to put a few hundred quid in his pocket. He's just finding that, after a while, you run out of bright new ideas and have to start regurgitating the stuff you heard in the bar 15 years ago.

I'll speak to him about when he comes around trying to sell me a life assurance policy...

"The Army would absorb all Special Forces and helicopter operations..."

Look what a great job the Army is doing with Apache. :suspect:

SASless, you might want to check your comments about Russia being broke. I think you will find that Russia is booming, running up a healthy surplus in the process. Try comparing their budget surplus with the US deficit. Not trying to be alarmist but it is worth keeping an eye on Mr Putin.

Could I possibly canvass the opinion of any brown-jobs who support Mr Collins' idea as to what there thoughts would be on the following.

Prior to amalgamating the RAF into the RN or Army - what would the arguments be against amalgamating all of the Army's regiments into the Royal Army?

Just asking..............it seems to make a little more sense!

And now let's take a look at what a marvellous job the Air Farce is doing with a number of Chinook Mk3s which it is unable to fly.

Glasshouses and stones, my friend.

Has anyone else noticed how sensitive some people get as soon as you mention Apache:E

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

Typical sh!te trotted out by ex-officers living off their past whilst trying to make a media career for themselves. Any thoughts on the capability of REME/AAC successfully maintaining the likes of Typhoon, Sentinel, MRA4, JSF etc ? How many of the RAF would join the Army, not far off the square root of f*ck all I would say.

S_H

[email protected],
fully aware of the training at Shawbury, was merely pointing out that it's an 'air farce' stn with an RAF Wg Cdr as station commander. You're point completely reinforces the fact that what Collins has come out with is utter drivel. The UK's airpower is a comination of the three service's flying elements, something, as many have already pointed out, that Collins ignorantly comes across as having no iota about.
Granted the Mk3s are still on the ground, but the RAF can get around the issue with it's varied SH fleet, whereas the AAC has which other helicopter that could undertake the role of the Apache's, with the same standard of capabilty??? Anyway, no need to squabble about Mk3 issues here, as its ALWAYS at the top of the :mad: forum!

Safety Helmut Et Al,

Your right chap.

I was on on JHSU in early 80's when the pongo's wanted to take over 18 Sqdn..the powers that be underestimated the strength of feeling that the aircrew and the grouncrew would be happy to change from RAF blue/grey berets to AAC berets overnight...!!!

I must admit to being impressed by Tim Collins' speech "be magnanimous" however this statement has left me unimpressed.
Although im now a civvy, i still like to keep abreast of whats going on and find his lack of understanding of the RAF somewhat akin to a 3yr old in playschool.

If the Army/Navy can do Strategic/Tactical AT Support, let them do it and see the egg on faces when it goes tits up....!!!!!!!!!!!!

The RAF maybe the Jnr Service but by no means should that enforce the fact that they should be disbanded....

Op Corporate showed the Army/Navy needed the RAF to evacuate casualties and resupply the frontline when needed......
There is only so much that private companies will do...Charter aircraft will only operate on a hub/spoke basis....ie they fly Brize to XXXX then the RAF AT fly will into theatre....

Tim Collins Hero to Zero in 1.3 secs,, some Guinness World Record !!!!!!!!!!

P Rick springs to mind !!!!!!!!!

Wake up and smell the coffee in the real world........!!!!!!!