Is it worth keeping military SAR?
 

Folks

As an advocate of military types flying around rescuing people, is there anyone out there with a view on whether we should bite the financial bullet and keep mil SAR running long term? Or should we gracefully accept defeat and acknowledge that civilianisation is the way ahead?

How does UK PLC benefit from the RAF/RN doing the jobs?

I'm sure the rotary mates will pile in one this one but one good reason for keeping SAR (in peacetime) is that it leads nicely into JPR on operations.

Oh, and it's great PR to see a bright yellow whirly-gig hovering over a sinking yacht or some flooded Cornish countryside.

The writing is on the wall and SAR will go civvy when the Sea King retires. There might be some military crews but the rest of the outfit will be civvy.

Fo' shizzle...

JPR and peace time SAR are, sadly, two very seperate occupations which have less in common with each other than most people might think.

Have to agree that after the Seaking retires most of UK SAR will probably go civilian, with perhaps an occasional military crew being slotted in for appearances sake.

JTIDS

Not so (doctrinally)

JWP 3-66 Joint Personnel Recovery

One of the justifications often quoted for keeping a military SAR force is CSAR; but since the Falklands the MoD has not, as far as I can recall, detached any SAR assets with forces going to operational theatres... any SAR requirement has been met by assets on scene (or assumed that we could call upon the assistance of Unckie Sam to help us out)

I feel CSAR is destined to become a secondary role for SH, whilst the UK shores are protected by the Coastguard... or maybe RNLI helicopters, now there's a thought?

I thought the original and continued point of mil SAR was to recover FJ mates when they parted company with the jet. As we all know that tasking is <1% of 1% of the jobs (thankfully).

Technically isn't mil SAR meant to be deployable in times of crisis? Not that I can recall such an event. I guess anyone's deployable if reqd.

Whilst the SH mates are definitely better placed for the CSAR role, the yellow/ red & grey fleet do get a fantastic range of jobs which the aircrew would never find elsewhere. That's experience for the mil you literally could keep buying if you kept us going. Not to mention, as stated by 4F above, the PR is always good.

Can't remember the last time a misinformed journo dissed any SAR crew for abusing the casualty! (That could well be another thread!)

However, the Junglie bloke that wrote (copied from the Yanks) the JPR doctrine couldn't find his own @rse with both hands.
Not entirely his fault, but IMHO we are trying to match the US way of doing things without the suitable assets just to, in theory, be interoperable. The chances of the US letting us anywhere near one of their operations is quite likely zero.
I reckon we should do it like USMC Trap.
The simple fact is that JPR and SAR bear no relation to each other, otherwise 771 and Crab sqns would be the guys doing it!

This is not meant as an inter-service dig but the RN SAR force is totally coherent with the front line reqt. RN SAR crews are front line crews from the SK/Mer/Lynx world on a respite tour. The skillsets are directly transferrable and embarked crews are at notice for SAR wherever they are in the world - and have been used on an all too regular basis.

Regrettably (and this is not a dig) the RAF SAR Force is a stand alone organisation with no war/front line role. With the exception of a loss of PR civilianisation of this Force would make little difference to MOD.

I think Bismark, to be fair, that lot more cross-pollination (look at me with the w@nky phrases!) is going on in the RAF SAR force these days also.

Worth bearing in mind that the RN SAR force has its roots in the support of FW carrier aviation, which we are promised will return in about 20XX. The RN does therefore need to maintain skills in SAR in order to be able to expand (a rare word!) capacity when JSF goes to sea.

All the MOD SAR force is technically deployable I think. But concur that the RN rotates the crews way more than the light blue.

One of the fundamental difficulties for the civ's (I standby to be corrected here...) is that they remain bound by whatever limits the MCA or whoever sets them. Whereas a mil crew can keep going at the a/c cdr's discretion with no theoretical limit, merely judgment as when to say "no". Not that the civ's would not have the cojones to keep going (they're mostly ex-mil anyway) but for them the line is the line. Mainly I'm talking about actually getting to the scene, which is often the hardest bit.

Last autumn a mil crew had a bugger of a time getting to a family of 8 who were literally being washed away on a river island (their transit van already had). The wx was diabolical but by climbing over the trees when necessary, hover taxiing down the roads etc, they got there and pulled them off, in the nick of time when things were looking v.grim.

How did the crew justify it? Because it's operational flying which allows a/c cdrs to modify the rules if it's in the national/service interest.

How can such rules be applied to a civ crew? Bristows/CHC or whoever have a ton of money invested in their cabs - they won't allow them to fly "limitless".

Perhaps the answer is for the MOD to "parent" all SAR and take the budget that would have been allocated to the MCA post SAR(H). This is of course a great theory but the reality is still likely to end up way different I'm afraid.

What is there to stop the Mil from turning over the crewing of SAR to FTRS and the maintainance to a civilian contractor?

Best of all worlds or worst of all worlds?

Beefer,

The point is not one of rotation of crews it is that ALL RN rotary crews are SAR capable and on standby when embarked.

Re "theoretical" deployability of the UK SAR Force - the point here is that there is no deployable role for the RAF SAR Force, the RN SAR a/c can and do deploy to the CVS for SAR/HDS duties.

Re Civ SAR - there is no reason why the CAA could not clear Civ SAR to the same limits as the current Mil SAR to allow overland SAR - the police are already NVG cleared etc.

Scottishbeefer

If I am not mistaken, there are no limits on civvy cabs when life is at risk, just commanders discretion.

Bismark,
Stretching the point a bit to say all RN crews are SAR capable. Junglies will have a go at night if they are allowed, but not really SAR capable at sea.
Lynx ditto at night

To counter the RN view (slightly) - all RAF crews, not just SK SAR, are SAR capable and available on varying degrees of readiness depending on location.

Concur Tourist's comments re all RN SAR capable - all helo crews can have a go at rescuing someone, the RN are SAR at sea on AL60 or as reqd because they're the only SAR asset in the middle of the oggin. Likewise the AAC do similar in Belize etc; not the same as a dedicated, worked up SAR crew with appropriate kit.

Droopystop - didn't know that - ta. Hopefully the crew wouldn't feel any commercial pressure to stop before they felt they'd actually hit the limit of the a/c + crew, especially since they've mainly been on mil side of the fence.

Airborne artist's idea has merit I think - as ever I guess money will drive the issues.

But, what will happen if/when all SAR is civ and all the ex-mil SAR types have withered on the vine? I guess the civ's will need to grow their own experience from within - however, my gut tells me the accident rate is bound to go up at that point. It's been a long running debate on another thread about the amount of hours the mil/civs get for training. The accidents will probably come from the crew getting out of their depth when inevitably they act with the casualty's best interests at heart. Alternatively they might call it a day (night?) when a mil crew (or civ of old) could have found the way to skin the cat.

Is there a thoroughbred civvy SAR driver out there who can advise on how their operation is going?

Any SAR service is better than none of course. But wouldn't it be ironic if some civil servant who's signed off to kill mil SAR was the bloke left on the side of mountain because of the reasons above?

Perhaps we've shot ourselves in the foot by not taking such decision makers out on a few more dark and scary nights (pref. a real job) - they might see it differently.

Any SABR/SAR(H) experts who could enlighten us on the gen rationale behind the decisions?

Jungly

Can't disagree with you over the pound being king.

There's probably a culture of legacy thinking here (of which I'm still guilty). Whereby people are used to a very high standard of SAR and presume that's the base level required. In reality as I said above, any service is better than none, and if the jobs are attacked safely and most casualities are dealt with then that is the base level.

However.....if we paired everything down to the leanest possible it would make for a dull existence, grossly limit the respite tours for those overworked Front Liners and I suspect would rather take the shine off the military flying machine in that we do SAR pretty well and there are tangible benefits to MOD associated with it. Viewed purely as a PR effort it is indeed expensive but it has other roles than SAR - namely civil aid, homeland defence, nuclear accident support (deep joy!) etc. All stuff that might prove a bit geographically tricky for the SH mates if they're all deployed East of Suez and certainly not going to be in any MCA/civvy company contract.

A subjective view of course, you can always get choppers from somewhere to fill the gaps.

SB

I still remain to be convinced that providing a comparable service by civilians would be cheaper.

I was in MoD a few years ago when SAR civilianisation was raised (as it regularly is). Much of the financial justification was made by comparisons with the then-new DHFS, and it was amazingly difficult to convince Sir Humphrey and his gang that putting 24 Squirrels on the line at one base 9-5 five days a week was a touche different from putting 2 Sea Kings (or equivalent) on line 24/7/365 in penny packets at a many different locations ....

That said, it will probably happen as "the pound is king". Cynical moi predicts the following:

1. Privatisation proceeds on flawed Investment Appraisal.
2. "No more resources available" when it is discovered that military system cannot be replicated.
3. Service provided cut somehow - probably closing flights/extending reaction times - to fit what Sir Humphrey wants to spend.

Remember .... you heard it here first......;)

Yes, and DHFS has not proved the financial panacea that was thought. I wonder if the Lessons Learned have actually been acted upon?

I have to agree with junglyAEO's comments but couldn't the same thing be said about The Red Arrows?
After all they are "just" a massive PR machine that cost big £'s a year to maintain:eek: ! At least the SAR boys (and girls) provide a service as well as good PR.
I'm not having a go at the reds but if you want to save money without loosing a service (apart from PR) then ditch the display team (Controversial)!

I think if you asked the average Joe public, they would immediately associate all SAR with the RAF, regardless of the colour of the cab. In other words, the RAF get good PR whoever do the job. Granted that those who live on the coast might be better informed, but most of the population live inland.

I have had the pleasure of flying with both Civvy and ex mil pilots in a SAR role and IMHO the Civvy commanders are every bit as good as the ex military types.

Certainly in the South West, the good PR raised by SAR is equally split between the RN and RAF. You are of course right in saying that the public has a better understanding because the population in the South West all live near the coast. That having been said there is great coverage of SAR activities in the SW. Several times a week there will be reports of SAR on the news and local papers. With such a high profile in the region and the relatively high density of SAR coverage thanks to Culdrose, Mawgan, Chivenor etc, the public would be outraged to see a decline in service due to transfer to a civilian operator. Military SAR has proved its worth, especially in its numbers, in the region on several occasions, when more then one incident needs to be attended at any one time. Just think of the huge variety of incidents that could go on at any one time. What with the fishing industry, private leisure craft, divers, shipping industry etc, there is obviously a very real demand for the services of military SAR in the SW.

Scottishbeefer
 

1. Civilian SAR pilots operate with two rule books. For training and non-SAR urgent tasking we operate to CAA CAT (commercial air transport) regulations - safe single engine + standard IFR rules etc. On a declared SAR mission the rule book goes out of the window and everything is at the Captain's discretion.

2. MCA SAR pilots are now approx 70% civilian, ie non military background. They cope just the same as their military counterparts because of selection and training. Remember RN/RAF pilots were civilians before they signed up!

3. Stornoway cope very well with mountain tasking so we are not only maritime.

4. We could do with NVG's. The CAA seem to have become more flexible about this issue, so I think it's only a matter of time and the correct aircraft modifications.

The rule discrepancy that SAROwl mentions should also be addressed in full civilianisation, and was another factor talked about in the Ministry. Service pilots at present can train to rules and in conditions that they would use on "jobs". Ergo, a civilian on his first job may not have flown in those conditions or to those rules before.

Not a problem to change the rules I guess............

Valid points all.

On a sort of connected theme, would be interesting to know what percentage of the JIGSAW project (BP North Sea Oil SAR) are ex mil, how much they are costing, and how efficent they are. (not to mention what their weather limits are) Also if they are largely ex mil, how much would their costs go up if the source of ex mil SAR pilots and rear crew dried up...

"I have to agree with junglyAEO's comments but couldn't the same thing be said about The Red Arrows?"

To my knowledge this has been punted before but no politician would take that one.

retard

Yes, the mighty accountants are the arbiters of all...and assume because they pay, they are all knowing. Mil SAR will perish in their hands. Civ SAR is definately as professional and provides a fine service but the bean counters will whittle it down to size.

Of note, is SARowl saying that although the civ SAR train under CAA CAT rules, on ops they will extend themselves. This would be in to situations that they would not have experienced or trained for. How can this be better than the realistic training we were allowed to carry out when I was on Mil SAR? It is not safe to carry out ops with no experience of operating in testing conditions. With fewer ex mil crews available to civ SAR where is the experience to come from?

Train [as much as is possible] for the real thing.

Good luck SARBOYS everywhere.

As I understand it, the Red Arrows are more or less self funding. That's what I was told anyway. No matter what the pro's and cons, I would like to see SAR retained in the Military, it's great PR with a life saving service.
I remember, as a small boy, sitting in Rock Park, Barnstaple when the Wessex SAR from Chivenor used to land with casualties for the local hospital. Used to draw crowds and made everyone aware of what the RAF could do. Same goes for the RN in the south west.
As an aside, watched the TV documentary series about the lifesavers on a beach in Cornwall during last summer. Used to regularly show the Coastguard helicopter on Ops. Some of the winchmen seemed veeerrrrry old, or had they just been in the sun too long??

Wyler

Well said. But let's not forget the boys North of the border, the RN have had the UK's busiest SAR unit for the past 2 years there. Guess they'll need to work that PR machine a bit (a lot) more.

Having had experience of SAR operations both ashore (Lee, Portland and Culdrose) as well as embarked, I think it will be a sad day when (if) the military lose the Civilian SAR mantle. I think we will always keep a skill set for military SAR but sadly, unless we can change public opinion, Civvy SAR for the Forces is on its way out.

In some repsects I blame our PR people for this lack of understanding. Down here, we have the SAR flights at Lee and Portland (both ex-RN but now Bristows) rammed down our throats daily on the evening news. There must be at least 2/3 stories a week on both of these units on the local TV. On occassion I work in the far south west and feel lucky if any of the TV or radio stations give a mention to Chivenor or Culdrose. Whose got it right?

Some very interesting comments so far, however nobody seems to fully explored the COMR option yet. The civil owned/military registered format for aircraft is the deal that they use at DHFS including the RAFs Search & Rescue training unit at Valley. Whilst Scottish Beefer has mentioned it is not all a bed of roses there, the concept of cost cutting by getting a civvy organisation to provide and maintain the aircraft can work - especially when deployability is not an issue. Thereafter the crews can be 100% military or a mixture of civvy & military.
The RAF SAR unit in Cyprus now also works this way with COMR aircraft, civvy support but 100% military crews.
This could also remove the issue of civvy flying restrictions. The civvy QHIs & QHCIs at DHFS (I accept at the moment they are all ex mil) can operate the aircraft to the same rules - low fly & NVG inclusive - as their mil counterparts.

Could this not be the case too for SAR throughout the UK?

Furthermore the COMR aircraft could then have RAF RESCUE or NAVY RESCUE or indeed DEFENCE RESCUE painted on the side to keep the PR people happy...

Thats a very good point. I can't see any reason why that wouldn't work.

Yeah, forgot about the COMR issue. With more robust handling of the PFI contract, that is probably a starter - actually I believe it is/was on the table as an option now you mention it.

Concur Southside re PR and the SW England media. Not that the Lee/PO boys shouldn't get the thanks, just that we should do a bit better.

DCC (Directorate Corporate Communications - DPR of old) - why not spend some productive money on a military SAR/general helo ops telly ad? (I am standing by for JunglyAEO et al to tell me what a waste of money this would be!). Benefits? Increased recruiting/greater public awarensss/understanding/support. Hard to see the downside. (?)

IIRC didn't the crabs do one of those 3 or 4 years ago?

:cool:

TOG

Up here at Boulmer, when they announced the closure of the station, it was the expected loss/relocation of the SAR helicopters that caused the major uproar. Being married to a local lady I can state that the yellow helicopters are part of the furniture and everyone in the region is accutely aware of its presence, the job the crews do and the service it provides.
The thought of anything else replacing it is greeted with genuine horror. Basically, I think Joe Public wants to see a miltary helicopter, yellow or grey with RAF or RN on the side. I include Coastguard in that as well.
When I asked about it around the family, they were concerned about a civilianisation due, mainly, to everyones mistrust of 'Public Services'. However unfounded their fears are, they believe that removal of the military from the equasion will inevitably lead to a reduction in service and corner cutting. That's where the PR battle will be.
I was back in Devon on holiday last year and the weather was glorious. We spent some days down on Saunton Sands and, when the Sea King flew over, people were jumping up and down and waving, cameras were out and mums and dads were telling their kids about what the helicopter was for. These were people from all over the country, not just the local (interested) community. The exact same thing happens here in Northumberland.
Do not underestimate the impact you have and the support you enjoy: keep it Military.

Are the civvy SAR boys fully IFR capable ?


My oppo flys for PAS and he tells me that the Police are VFR only - no requirtement for any IFR. He also tells me that the Air Ambulance guys are Day/VMC only... wish I could get that in my log book...

Not all Ambo's are day/vmc - Glasgae at least flies at night, believe that's single pilot IFR as it happens. The feds may be day/nt vmc?

Not sure about the MCA chaps - what's the S61 fit?

This is one of the handy things about the 'King vs 61. The radar. No probs doing a self controlled let down over the sea then running in on the scope. Makes finding a way to the inland jobs easier (not always - naturally).

SB