Air Training Corps
 

Just wondered if there was any member of the Air Training Corps use this forum.

:)

It would appear so:rolleyes:

probably, but no-one will admit it, lest they attract incoming. :}
try over on www.aircadetcentral.net/forums

Incoming Alert
 

I am happy to admit that the Third Pillar of the Royal Air Force use this forum.

Please do not forget that according to MOD figures 60% of Commission Holders and 75% of Non Commissioned personnell are ex-Air Cadets. So step out of the closet and be proud of your past!

Try Southside. He appears to be an Air Cadet who occasionally looks at the Sea Cadet website too.

Meeee owwwww;)

As a former ATC cadet, and a former ACLO at Abingdon and Manby, I would be surprised if ATC & CCF cadets did not venture onto this forum.

They, like all RAF personnel, are volunteers. They are members of those organisations because they want to be; not because they are forced into it. We should be grateful that so many are proud to wear RAF uniform from choice in today's world.

PS

During WW2 a Spitfire Sqn "Scramble" at Biggin Hill was made possible by ATC cadets whilst the Sqn groundcrew were at lunch.

If you have any spare time, now or in the future, consider offering some of it to an ATC squadron. They are the future, as the recruiting stats show.

You don't have to turn up twice a week and teach - join their civilian commitee, probably four meetings a year; wangle some favours from your friends in the right places to get them trips and visits; help them with your Service-learned skills of leadership, teaching and having a good time in adversity.

I've done some of the above, and spent a couple of parade nights helping them put together a presentation about their activities - they gave it to an audience of 50 odd last night, and all I heard afterwards were good things about their enthusiasm and turn-out.

You might even have fun :8

I should add that you don't have to leave the Services before volunteering - we have four JRs/NCOs from the secret Oxon RW airbase who come and help, often.

From the ATC website:

The Corps, which has charitable status, is not a recruiting organization but many members do go on to have careers in the Royal Air Force, other Services or civilian life. Currently approximately 50% of all aircrew (pilots, navigators and NCO aircrew) and 40% of Officers are ex-Cadets.

So Sprys fiqures are a little inflated. I asked HQ ACO for the up to date fiqures (the reason why is imaterial) and they did not know. The website stats have been around a little while now and may no longer be the case. Being involved in the training system since 1990 off and on, I do not think that the post ATC recruitment is as much as it is claimed, and many unit visitors on work experience have no ATC/CCF background.

As an ex cadet, a father of cadets, a ex CI. an ACLO and supporter of several ATC Sqns according to where I was posted at the time, I think I know something about this. Indeed, Mrs Darr is ex VRT, ex CI and current Civ Committee member of an ATC Sqn.
My view is it is a great organisation for kids, and contains a large number of committed adults doing their best. It is however spoiled by the internal politics and the small number of idiots who like to ponce about in uniform pretending to be officers in the RAF. Now as they hold a VR(T) commission, they actually are , but with only a week reading and writing course, they know the square root of bugger all about the real service. I have great respect for the RAF people who turn up at their local Sqn to help out. They are in the minority however, and people on the inside with real RAF experience ane few and far between. In fact people with real RAF experience are often considered a threat, and I have observed several over the years,being slowly frozen out because the "In Crowd" didn't want someone in their private club knowing the real way of doing things. I have also seen very successful Sqns decimated, because of jealousy by others on "the wing staff" Some of the tricks would make you cry.
While I would wish the ATC to continue and prosper, I think it is about time the RAFVR(T) was abolished, and the adult staff were given an alternative identity. The committed leaders would remain, but the posers, having lost the ability to walk round our stations and make our airmen salute them, would soon drift away.The ATC would become a better run organisation for that.
Now, I expect I have started WW3 with the above. I hope not, as I have a lot to thank the ATC for, both on my own account, and for my children, all ex cadets. I honestly think however that it needs a serious shake up to get rid of those who do it no good and who seem to be in it for their own benefit rather than for the kids.

I'll stick my head above the parapet.

As a current RAF VR(T) Officer, commanding a squadron of 50 odd cadets, I'm confident that I'm not in the minority of idiots who tar the name of the VR(T) with office politics, and empire building.

I do have to ask RayDarr - with what would you replace it?

I also have to add that I have the utmost respect for our "service helpers" but unfortunatly in this day and age, they cannot be relied on, not because they are unreliable per se; but they are down for a couple of months all keen and enthusiastic, and then they ahve to go do guard duty for a week, they go off to sandy places, and they have night shifts, or training to do. Therefore I can't rely on them to be available consistently. Not their fault - you guys are overstretched as it is. It's just the way it is for me (and I have an East midlands, harrier base practically on my doorstep.

We have cr@p officers, because of two things

1) there is a nationwide shortage of officers: ergo: We'll take anyone who is prepared to put on the blue suit.
2) The selection process is not rigorous enough, and the follow up leadership and management training and support is naff to say the least.

and point 3 - you'll always get some tw@t who gets through the system because they know how to jump through all the right hoops.


also, where the ACO used to be staffed greatly by ex-regular personnel no-one leaving the service these days wants anything but bugger all to do with us. They cannot get out of the parent organisation and away from it fast enough - do you think they really want to help us? nope.

hey-ho.:sad:

All good points, well made!

I must 'fess up to being a CI in the ATC. Flame me all you like - I have broad shoulders!

Edit: Bejesus, was that really my first post - guess I'm officially a 9 month troller then!

Well I'm not afraid to admit that I'm an ex-ATC Cdt of 7 years, ex-CI of 3 years, and now a serving Airman who has been known to help the ATC out.

Some of the best times I had as a teenager were with the ATC, especially the chance to sun myself for 2 weeks in Cyprus! (Hmm, that's more than the RAF have given me! <packs his cold weather gear for his impending Falklands Det!> :}

Ex-cadet and Ex-VRT officer here.

The ATC was fantastic when I was a teenager - I benefitted hugely from many top-notch courses, flying/gliding courses etc which influenced my subsequent career choice (civvi pilot U/T at the moment) but as an adult member of staff I found a number of my colleagues (by NO means all - I had the pleasure to work with and know a number of top men and women) were soley interested in themselves, often to the detriment of the cadets.

Also the Wing Staff often (and again I must stress that the bad apples often were far more visible than the good eggs) were living in a world of their own - which restricted some activites course etc available to cadets.

However, I believe that the Air Training Corps is a very worthwhile organisation that does a huge amount of good work with young people - and it should continue to do so.

Agree with RayDarrs comment on the identity change for the VRT - the status of the officers who, to gain a Queens Commission (with all that goes with it) have to do what they do, should be altered.

Head now below parapet....!

Couldn't agree more, hence I've recently joined my local Squadron as a CI.

The staff, both uniformed and civilian do their utmost to ensure that the cadets get as much exposure to Service life as is possible, but unless more serving or former-serving personnel become involved, constraints on availability notwithstanding, there is the danger that the ATC many of us enjoyed in the past will become nothing more than a youth club, something neither the cadets nor staff would wish.

As for the debate on VR(T) status, surely this is a matter of 'gentle' education of miscreants? Compared to the days when I was a cadet, it would appear that VR(T) Officers who have served are in the minority. To expect them to understand the ethos of Service life without a great deal of exposure is a little far-fetched. There is insufficient time on the Induction Course to give more than a basic understanding of expectations.

Spot on RayDarr,

As an ex-cadet of 9 years cadet service I wholeheartedly agree with your comments. Indeed I saw quite a few of the 'posers' while a cadet and in my 9 years commissioned service in the mob I've seen them continue to swank around the Mess. Don't get me wrong - there are some fine individuals out there who are in it for the benefit of the kids but their visibility is reduced by the rage-fuelling behaviour of the minority. I wouldn't be where I am now without the Air Cadet Organization and I have helped whenever possible as ACLO, but I still don't think I have fully paid up my debt to the organization.

If someone can introduce some form of 'Adult Leader' type of status rather than our rank structure it would certainly help to wheedle out the undesirables (often those who have been unsuccessful at joining at OASC). That said, consideration must be given to the fact that this may result in less visibility of the RAF for the kids (oops - I forgot the ACO is not there for recruitment).

I learnt a great deal in the ATC, especially when a unit of the Girls Nautical Taining Corps started using the drill hall next door. There can't be many PPruners who lost their virginity on an RAF greatcoat:O

PAMCC - Sadly, as some have already said in this thread, if your not part of the "in-crowd" your pushed out by the poser wannabes!

I agree in principle - but the problem is, IMHO, that a lot of those that should be 'educated' are in positions where they cannot be. A lot of people working at the coalface, in squadrons, have become at best annoyed by posers/wannabes/etc working higher up.

Having said that though, I have encountered the exact opposite, where the people working above squadron level have been fantastic.

Er, well, now you come to mention it....:O

Now who thought it would be a good idea to share parade nights with the Girls Venture Corps (Air Wing)?

If the RAFVR(T) were to go, it could be replaced by a similar system used by the ADDC (predecessor of the ATC for the uninitiated) The adult staff in those days wore RAF style uniforms, but rank braid was (I think) black They were able to operate alongside the RAF, but were not commissioned. The previously mentioned GVC works in much the same way. Rank titles would need changing and an ATC officers cap badge would need designing, but this is easy stuff. The effect on the kids would be nil. ATC still doing what it always has, in much the same way as before. Effect on posers would be significant, as they no longer have a Commission Scroll to frame above the fire place, and are no longer able to strut around RAF bases claiming salutes from the troops. Makes accommodation at camp easier as the adult staff could be placed more easily in Sgts Mess accommodation, that is if there is any to spare. I expect the politics will still go on, but the guys at the sharp end will have to sort that out.

As for RAF greatcoats.. a fine piece of kit but likely to bring blushes to the cheeks of Mrs Darr, an ex GVC cadet, and my frau for well over 30 years .

RayDarr

I think you will find it was ADCC (Air Defence Cadet Corps).

Ex cadet and ex Regular RAF SNCO, did the 22 year thing and am now a newly commissioned virtual reality Plt Off, who feels somewhat a fraud.

Ex regulars are indeed a minority, and if it wasn't for my enthusiasm for the RAF and ATC I wouldn't have bothered either because of the muppetry holding VR(T) rank. However it's the troops that make it worthwhile and it would not be untrue to say that for the first time in a long while I have experienced real satisfaction since committing to the ACO, something that eluded me for the best part of my last 10 or so years in the RAF.

The adult staff on my sqn are all excellent and the wing staff all appear fully committed and supportive, clearly I have encountered some real chimps but you quickly learn to tune them out and they do thin out rapidly when squared up to. When I was doing my 'Pre-Uniform Course' we had a knobber of an ex Adult Warrant Officer(AWO) that was coming back in to the ACO who had the gaul to declare that the ATC AWO course was harder than anything a regular Warrant Officer would experience. Bzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzt!!

To date I haven't come across any of the 'Old Boy' mentality, although I
heard the old chestnut that RAF experience doesn't count in the ACO!:rolleyes:

As for RayDarr's suggestions, I've pondered this myself many times. For example my next door neighbour is a dedicated adult volunteer with the scouts. He doesn't get anywhere near the kind of benefits I am entitled to and furthemore doesn't want them, he does his thing because he really wants to. I wonder how many members of the ACO would too in similar circumstances?

I've just given my lovely greatcoat away to my brother in laws girly - brass buttons too!:{ However she is a classically trained professional dancer :E

AIR TRAINING CORPS
 

I WAS LUCKY TO BE IN THE ATC BEFORE THE WOOLY PULLIES CAME IN.
WENT FROM UNDER AGE CADET TO GLIDING INSTRUCTOR (AS DID MANY OTHERS) AND HAD A GREAT TIME.THE POINT IS THAT THE ORGANISATION GAVE (AND STILL DOES) AN OPPORTUNITY TO GET INVOLVED IN ALL SORTS OF ACTIVITIES ON TOP OF THE FLYING, AND IT HAS PROVED ITS WORTH TO THE COMMUNITY OVER THE YEARS.I WINCE A LITTLE WHEN I SEE THE STANDARD OF TODAYS MARCHING, BUT ITS A SMALL PRICE TO PAY.IT IS A DIFFICULT TIME FOR YOUTH ORGANISATIONS TO GET ADULT HELPERS, AND YET THE CORPS FLYS ON INTO THE FUTURE!! GOOD LUCK.

Here here Pobjoy & welcome to PPRuNe!

POBJOY
 

OK OK, no need to shout.

I am an RAFVR(T) but in my youth I did 30 weeks IOT ( 18 weeks and then 12 more I was having SO much fun!!!) I would agree that there are some VR(T) who are a complete disgrace but also there are some who have just never been taught.....it is difficult to teach in 1 hour the CESR lessons I learnt over many weeks.
I try and ensure that any candidate I put forward for a commission will uphold the traditions and behaviour which I hold very dear...
There are some of us out here who are trying hard not to let the side down. :(

I THOUGHT YOUR EYES MIGHT BE A BIT TIRED !!

Why do you feel like a fraud?

VRT Officers
 

Okay, must admit I am a civvy through and through who was recommended by my CO to be a VRT Officer. Have bags of experience in a technical trade in civvy street and thought what the hell, give it a go. After reading RayDarr’s and other comments which I believe to be valuable, I find I am in a dilemma! Should I simply remain a C.I. or go for it?

Simple fact: When attending courses on RAF Stations in the past, I have been treated VERY courteously. Mess bill’s VERY cheap, and the best part was the conversations in the bar. Okay the price of the beer was excellent as well!!!

What I don’t want to do is trade this for a position where I would be considered third rate, and at best an annoyance to everyone from AC and above. Your thought and comments welcome…:bored:

mgdaviso,

Dunno really, probably because I know what the selection and training process is to gain a regular commission that I feel that I've sneaked in through the back door. I'm sure that as I settle in it will pass. :ok:

Vulpecula,

It all depends on what you want to get out of it! As a CI, you have very little input on the running of the organisation, but on the plus side, you can devote more time to the kids, without the hassle of rank politics!

Also, as we used to joke, CI was the highest rank in the ATC - in theory noone can tell you what to do - they can ask you politely, but not tell you :}

I was happy to remain a CI, purely so I didn't have to get involved in the politics that seemed to come with a uniform in the wing I belonged to, but then, I had an excellent CO on the Sqn, who valued his CIs more than, it seamed, Wing did. He let us have a great deal of input at Sqn level, which was fine by me!

Perhaps someone who has taken the plunge from CI to VRT/AWO would care to give their perspective on the matter - I feal my experience is rather biased toward staying a civvi!

Edit - forgot to mention VRT Officers on RAF Camps. As a serving airman now, I have only come across VRT officers once since joining the mob, and had no problem with them at all, perhaps because I knew who/what they were. However, I do feel that a lot of the negativity within the serving ranks is due to lack of knowing who/what they really do! That and possibly the un-coolness of saying cadets IS a worthwhile organisation and not just a bunch of pesky kids that turn up once a year at summer and nick your scoff in the airman's mess!

I hear what you're saying. Whilst the VR(T) Commission is "real" per se, I have never tried to believe that I was a regular serving Officer, and have never had any problems whilst on RAF Stations during summer camps. Airmen (or should that be airpeople these days?) have always saluted where necessary, and they have always had a proper salute in return. I've never demanded anything, always requested, and I've found that people despite being busy with their jobs, have always found time to help and show cadets around aircraft, etc.

I guess it depends on your attitude - I know of a few VR(T)'s who like to think that they are on a par with serving Officers, but don't even come close, but these are in the minority.

I'm sure you'll settle in well - ex-regular personnel are needed amongst our ranks to help keep things focused on what our parent service actually do, and they bring gallons of good stuff to the organisation.


Vulpecula;

Do what you feel is best for you. Do not be pressurised into going for a VR(T) commission because your CO "needs you" in uniform.

The two jobs are very different.

My advice:

pop on over to http://www.aircadetcentral.net/forums where you'll find loads of information, and be able to ask any questions you like.

HTH

Crowborough anyone? ;)

I was in the ATC (joined in 1986) - left twice!

Mine (358) was one of those squadrons where all we did was bloody drill!

We had a right stern character for a warrant officer too - a New Zealander called Bob Taylor - fearsome bloke, but we all respected him.

Mind you - in 1990 we went to Oshkosh to marshall aircraft - stood in the middle of an airfield with a massive thuinderstorm rolling in - I was at 6' 3" t. the tallest thing for miles! We were flown from Mildenhall to Dover, Delaware in a C5! That was cool!

Chipmunks and gliding - happy days (if you ignore the drill) :)

Should be compulsory for the C-H-A-Vs to join (ACF for the real knuclkeheads!) - might give them discipline sadly lacking in the home!

Air Training Corps
 

All good stuff and valid opinions on here guys (and gals) but please do not forget what the "V" stand for in VR(T).
Having been commisioned for close on 16 years (statement of fact not a boast) I would agree with Raydarr that you do get the occasional numpty through the system. However having spent an equal number of years as a Civil Servant with the MoD I can catagorically state that both the full timers in the services nor the civil servants are immune from that malise nor for that matter is the outside world. The advantage that the RAF/RN & Army has is that it has a system called Initial Training covering several months in place to weed out the majority of the c*&p. The VR(T) has no such system only having 1 week IOT courses to turn a civilian into an officer. Any rough edges are then left to the individual squadrons/wings to be knocked off. You get a further 1 weeks Senior Officer training on or about the time you may take over a squadron and that is the sum of your officer training! About time some refresher course were mandated every couple of years to assist with the developement of OLQ's.
As to getting rid of the RAFVR(T), Raydarr, was your good lady proud to wear her uniform and hold the Queens Commision?
I am certainly proud to wear mine or is that a crime in your eyes sir?
If you dispense with the VR(T) you will lose a great deal of staff I fear, not because they wish to "ponce around" in messes as you put it but because they are proud to wear that uniform, be part of the RAF and to pass that pride and self respect onto the cadets.
The cadets themselves appreciate the link with the RAF and a number (whatever it is) do go on to join both the air force as well as the other services having recieved a positive impression of service life from (amongst others) the adult staff on the squadron.
If you wanted to ensure a better class of VR(T) officer I would strongly suggest a better and longer training regime possibly run over a series of weekends to avoid clashing with the day job. In addition were a condition of service that individuals took on some form of reserve liability then I suspect that some of the potential posers that have been alluded to would think again.
Happy of course to take the flack on this, but if you can't take a joke you should not have joined!
(Climbs down off soapbox)

Vulpecula

If you are desperate to wear the uniform, drink in the OM and collect salutes, then go for the commission. As a new Plt Off, you'll be expected to get involved more in the management side during parade nights (ie logging post :hmm: ). Also, by becoming VR(T), chances are you will have to move Sqn.

If you want to stay involved in actually teaching cadets, then stay a CI.

As an ex-cadet, I have to agree that the organisation can be ruined by the arrogance of some officers. I had the misfortune to join a Sqn run by such an officer, who it appeared was more concerned about his personal ambition of 'conquering' a mountain in every continent than anything aviation based. It is true too what is said about the 'in crowds'. During my time I found this generally to be staff members who clustered around the VR(T) officer.

I was a member for some 35 years when I was 'retired' by my Wg Cdr declining to sign my tour extension. I'd been Staff cadet at a VGS, the CI, then commisioned, then Squadron Commander, finishing as a WGLO covering two VGS and 22 squadrons. My wingco then decided I wasn't putting in my 8 hours/month (it was mostly done at weekends and I didn't attend the sqdn - was no longer OC).
Problem was I'd put my wingco's back up by participating in a project to put more 'Air' in Air Training Corps by offering microlight AEF; yes HQAC knew all about it and kept stats. but my wingco didn't agree with it and took the first opportunity to give me the heave, well before I was 55!

Ex Cdt Ex VRT (inc Sqn Boss) Ex ACLO (posted)
Been their and spent alot of time doing and then organising air cadet activities. First things first, I could never go back to it as it is very different to the real air force (don't start shouting all you VR(T) peeps out there.). The uniform is where the similarity ends. The majority of VR(T) officers have no real idea how the air force runs BUT the majority of regular officers have no idea what goes into the running of an ATC sqn day to day. I still take my hat off to those that are there for the cadets. There are those few idiots that bring the name down but thats upto the VR(T) officers to self police. I have had to take VR(T) to one side in the bar when I was ACLO and tell them to wind their neck in but then again I've had to do that with mates as well. My latest adventure is helping to run an AEF (stictched) and some of the officers are very dis-organised (bring cadets without logbooks signed etc) but its not their primary job.
Starting to get carried away. For those who are doing a good job (and you know who you are) well done.
Finally, I had 9 of my cadets join the air force in the last year I was VR(T). The last one I saw was a RAFP Cpl out in Pristina doing the arrivals. He would never have joined had it not been for the staff on that ATC Sqn at the time giving him the help and advice he needed then. (If he ever does me for speeding on a station I'll remind him what he used to be like!)

Spot on advice their ;)