I completely understand why there should be dispensation not to wash the car.

I completely fail to understand why this dispensation should be rank orientated.

I thought we'd lost the 'batty' approach outside of the mess.

Indeed.

Doesn't the AP3003 (don't groan at the back) mention that when the RAF was formed the 'us and them' approach as seen in the RN and Army was frowned upon by Trenchard, wishing instead to have a force of professionals rather than a class based system?

Aren't we in the modern RAF in more enlightened times?

I'm not suggesting that officers and SNCO's do a spell on SWO's gang or that we are some kind of workers utopia (comrade) but by God people, we're talking about a Sqn Ldr washing a car!

We all bleed the same colour blood and outside the gates and out of uniform you are no better or worse than any other plebe out there.

I pity some of these attitudes. Oh how you shall tumble to earth with a bang one day when you re-enter the real world.

OverTq. Totally agree about the whole washing car thing but I find the us and them (lords and servants) idea that you long for totally out of date and downright rude. Your Sqn Ldr of 30 years experience is certainly to be respected for all he has achieved and experienced but no more so than a 'servant' non-commissioned rank such as Chief Tech or above.

People take certain paths, many of my colleagues and friends; I hasten to add, are front-end crew and as part of the deal, have to be officers. They are professionals and I respect them for that. I myself chose the non-commissioned route (and yes I was a very high achiever at school before some to$$er says I should have done better,- I’ll take you on at qualifications anytime!;) ). I like engineering, I am blinkin good at it, and my flyboy colleagues respect me for that as the professional that I am. Now times have changed, the Air Force has moved on. You would be surprised how educated us 'servants' now are, often more than .... wait for it...some officers. So stop this utter crap that officers are better than airmen and get out and meet the workers before you make offensive and ludicrous remarks

Oh sorry, just remembered your still a wannabee, who left the Air Force ten years ago and still wants a bit of the action. Thankfully we are better off without you.

Tourist
 

As I don't know you, Secret doesn't actually count as a Aircraft type. I took from your posts that you were a trench digger. Well you sounded like one!!:ok:

Strikes me that the min point of this thread is that to clean the car was a requirement laid out in orders. Whether the car was MT or Lex if orders say it has to be returned clean then that is the way it should be returned. As far as i'm aware, nowhere does it say obeying orders is a choice when a certain rank is achieved. To many people seem to think they should be entitled to choose the tasks that they so readily take the pay for. :\ :\

TWOL8. Well said :p

The simple point of having large quantities of low ranked people in the Military pyramid is so that the menial jobs can be carried out by people they are more suited to. ie people who should have tried harder at school.
And don't tell me that you were very sucessful at school but chose not to be an officer. That just shows a lamentable lack of confidence/ambition

And that post shows a total lack of reality. Get with modern times wannabee

Tourist,
you,re still straying off the point, MT Orders. If the RAF had the manpower to allocate all the 'menial' tasks to JRs perhaps the MT orders would have been different.... but as they weren't it's a case of stop moaning and pick up a sponge!!!!!!!

Only certain trades are entitled to overalls and other PPE. Has the sqn ldr, or any other B class driver undergone the appropriate car cleaning course?

Have the hazards associated with getting up close and personal with that type of car been pointed out?

MT driving rules also apply.

His working day starts at the time he/she picks up the car. It ends after 1 hours (I think) hard limits. He may drive for up to 9 hours with statutory breaks.

Clearly if the call to wash the car came after 11 hours duty he could state that he was now 'in-rest' and would attend to the task at the next available time on duty. If he agreed to wash the car, MT would be required to drive the car to the wash area for him.

I am not making this up but H&S and EP are mandatory and you would be crucified for breaching their rules. Use their rules to your advantage.

I am more than a little surprised at the vitriol my original post has generated. I have never had an 'us and them' mentality, and neither does the S/L I referred to. I simply feel that some 'erbert in MT (probably a civvy) who is paid for looking after their vehicles should do the job. Same applies if the driver in similar conditions had been an SAC - IT'S NOT WHAT HE'S PAID FOR. As far as me being a 'wannabee' (whatever that is, 12 twists per inch), just 'cos I left 10 yrs ago doesn't mean I don't still work for them and am glad to do so. Wouldn't wash the damn car myself, though!

.... I believe this statement is known in legal circles as the "Nuremburg Defence" ....;)

Ah, all becomes clear! Used an MT vehicle last week, fine hire car it was too, very fast and shiney. On returning said vehicle, spotty LAC asked "Has it been cleaned and refuelled?" Answer of course was "NO and NO, its parked outside feel free to go and do it for me, here are the keys". Wonderful thing delegation. Who writes the MT orders anyway, probably the same buffoon that insists on personnel doing the BFG tick test before a det to France.

This has absolutely nothing to do with 'us' and 'them'.

The nub of the question is, if MT don't drive the cars, don't wash them, don't refuel them and send them back to Lex for servicing .......what the :mad: do they do???? Just because you are an SAC/E Grade civil servant, it has nothing to do with why you should be doing your job. You are paid to sort out the MT plot and associated tasks - you can't just pick and choose which crappy parts of the job you don't want to do. Otherwise,next time you're off on det, after 3 days at Cerney and a 10 hr flt, you might just find yourself on the line refuelling the jets because other people don't want to do their job after you have cluttered up and used their ac :E

All in all, surely a candidate for leaning if ever I heard of one if they refuse to look after their own section's assets; leave all the keys on a rack in the Guard Room and with the money saved allow people to refuel / wash at the local garage. Any snags, take it up to MT who will have been leaned or amalgamated with GEF for the one remaining bloke to flag up the fault with the car to Lex / GEF.

Bit of a pyric victory for the proletariat me thinks. Grenade thrown, donning helmet and waiting for incoming turnips and such like.

The whole thing is symptomatic of the "cut corners and dump more on those in uniform." Cars should be washed by someone employed to look after cars rather than someone whose job is something else, regardless of rank. There is an entire civilian industry based around car washing, valeting and servicing and someone employed in this role will wash the car to a higher standard than someone back from a meeting.

Perhaps this is something to do with civilian contractors cutting corners and overheads to bump up profits...

I agree with that fully, I can't see how having a separate trade for doing what every other trade (except Pers Admin possibly) does as part of its normal duties is cost effective, but that not whats being questioned here. Whats being questioned is when does a person attain such a lofty position that they can pick and choose which orders to comply with?