XM607, Waddington's Warbird
 

While there has been an awful lot recently on Blackpool's Vulcan (XL391) being destroyed due to it's condition, Has anybody given any thought to what could be the RAF's most significant Vulcan?

As the UK has been lamenting the neglect of XL391, The aircraft that carried out the initial Black Buck bombings, and which held the longest ever bombing record for many years, has been left to corrode on a remote dispersal site at RAF Waddington for as many years as '391, but obviously get no press, because "The RAF are looking after that one"

Trouble is, we're not. At all.

The last time I saw 607, it was a rusty wreck, and this was only 6 months ago. Yes, Waddington move her aroAnd from time to time, but inside, she's rotting away, and outside, the corrosion is eating her up. All 4 jetpipes have rotted through, and most of her skin is pitted terribly.

I personally think that of all the Vulcans remaining, this is the one that should be preserved, if only because it is the one that has had a significant influence in all of our lives.

Should it really be left to degrade, out of public view on a dispersal pan at Waddington?

Does anybody think that we should at least bring her up to a respectable standard, and try to preserve the RAF's Flagship of the Falklands War?

Well it doesn't look quite as bad as XL391 did.

Clicky

You're quite right HS, on photo's it doesn't:hmm:
Truth is, if you are able to look at it, DO! It's obviously not yet in quite the same state as 391 is, or rather, was, but it is in a ridiculously bad state for one of our historic aircraft.

Stacker, if you could see if close up, and the corrosion on places like the trailing edges, Forward Fuselage, Main Legs and U/C bays where the planks of 2 by 4 have stored the moisture for the past 15 years, you may well be outraged also:mad:

Ignore the fact that the pictures on the website are a full 6 years old, and the aircraft has had 4 different resting places since then, your spot of Googling is obviously far more reliable than an officer who has physically seen an enormously beautiful chunk of heritage rot away before his very eyes.:suspect:

Noted from the link
 

The 44(Rhodesia) Squadron information brought back many happy memories. My crew had the Zimbabwe Air Legion T shirts made in Omaha, and my daughter still wears Mine!

There are two Vulcan return to flight projects?:E

I agree it is shameful the way this magnificent machine of war is being allowed to deteriorate to the point that soon the H&S world will demand its destruction.

Truth is, these days the bean counters hold sway, and to refurbish the airframe to a half decent standard is going to cost. That means budget holders will have to give up something towards the cost. And their attitude is bound to be 'why should they'?

There is little enough money to go round to do the primary job these days.

This government has decimated the Armed Forces to the lowest point ever in its history. They will point to the massive increase in capability of modern aircraft and weapon systems requiring less assests, but what they have not taken into account is attrition. If I have 100 Spitfires and lose 5 to enemy ground action, that's 5% loss. If I only have 10 Harriers at Kandahar and the terrorists take out 5 in a raid on the airfield, that's 50%. It's not rocket science, and whilst 5 Spitfires could be built as replacements in a few weeks or months, 5 Harriers would take how long? - assuming that British Waste of Space still had the capability to build from scratch.

They say history has a habit of repeating itself - remember the 1930's...

FJJP,

"This government has decimated the Armed Forces to the lowest point ever in its history"

Utter utter nonsense, you have no sense of history if you believe that to be the case.
The RAF does not have 10 Harriers it will have 70 odd upgraded GR9/9A's, so your Kandahar point is?

Draw me ONE valid and credible parallel between the situation in the 1930's and today, go on, just one.

DAMM shame though if this Vulcan goes the way of the example at Blackpool, or even the Beverley at Hendon, and THAT was in the care of the RAF Museum!

I seem to remember I mentioned in here on a different topic two years ago about the fate of XL319 at the North East Air Museum at Sunderland. Even then it's condition was deteriorating due to lack of TLC....

Quote "The RAF does not have 10 Harriers it will have 70 odd upgraded GR9/9A's"

Including the T birds yes they have 70 odd, whether they all get upgraded is an assumption.

There was a Vulcan at BAES Woodford 6-7 years ago, is it still there, what condition is it?

seand,

The contract with BAES is for 62 GR9/9A and 9 T12.

My main concern for the Vulcan at Woodford is what will happen to it when BAEs inevitably close the place. There is no guarantee that the MRA4 will be built there, though it is obviously the most likely choice, but after that? When they have finished converting the 9 production airframes what is there left for Woodford to do?

Last time I was at Waddo there was also a Victor parked behind the Vulcan on display.

What happened to it? Scrapped?

I've already whined and bitched about the mis-treatment of XM607 many times.
You would think that as the holder of a record (the longest bombing mission in the history of aerial warfare) until a B-52 beat it a few years ago, the aircraft would be assured of a safe future. But this is Britain of course, so the aircraft just gets pushed around in the cold and wet, year after year.
The Victor that used to be next to 607 was destroyed, despite being one of the tanker aircraft which enabled XM607 to perform its historic mission. There was no reason for the Victor's destruction, other than a decision made by some fool at the MoD, that RAF bases should only have one "gate guard" (not that 607 has ever been anywhere near Waddington's gate). Consequently, the Victor had to go for scrap, along with lots of other aircraft around the country that were hurting nobody, thanks to some arseh*le pen-pusher who had nothing better to do.
XM607 is in a poor condition, but the paint application hides a multitude of sins. However, the paint scheme isn't great either - the mission markings on the nose (which were re-applied a few years ago) look nothing like the artwork that was originally applied in 1982 - you'd think that repainting markings would be simple enough, wouldn't you?
Of course XM607 also had the distinction of wearing "desert camouflage" on her undersides during a Red Flag at Nellis, and it was a well-known display aircraft for many years, fondly remembered for some hairy take-offs at Greenham Common's IAT, courtesy of Joe L'Estrange.
No matter how you look at it, 607 is an aircraft which should be in a museum or at least a hangar.
Why can't someone start a campaign to build a shed for it? We do have a National Lottery Heritage Fund for this kind of thing, after all?

In living memory certainly. Less, aircraft, ships, tanks and CBLFs than at any point since WW2. If that's not decimation I don't know what is.

Rocket
 

Good rant.
Just one point though. Not sure how many Vulcans they have at Waddo (I'm not in the habit of taking tail numbers) but to suggest it is hidden away out of public view is not quite true.
I drove past Waddo barely 3 days ago on the A15 towards Coneheadsby and there was a Vulcan sat not 50 yards from the road. Or have I missed something?
BV:rolleyes:

prOOne

3.5K servicemen to Afghanistan soon. What we do if Argentina decided to have a better-thought-out go at the Falklands in the autumn? Go on, tell me how much of a task force we could put together - how many grey funnel line ships, what aircraft, what tankers and transports? How many troops, how to re-supply?

And Iran. Assume positive and true intelligence. GW decides to go for it and invites president bliar to support with tangible assets?

And another cod war?

I could go on; the lack of assets leaves us effectively toothless if we end up in an attrition situation. 70 Harriers sounds a lot, but take some out for major servicing, multiple dets, training, etc, and it doesn't leave many to fill the gaps when losses occur. In WW11 you could build a Spitfire in a couple of weeks, but how long to build a Harrier or Tonkka [assuming the means still exists to built one from scratch]?

And will someone please tell me where all the money went that was saved with the run-down of the Soviet block and the continued reduction in defence spending...

BV,

You are right, XM607 is the only Vulcan at Waddington, and is parked in full view of the viewing area just off the A15. It has been there since at least the last airshow, or possibly even the airshow in 2003.

It is scandalous that the RAF, or even Waddington, cannot look after the aircraft.

Y_G

I would be able to tell you the full unexpurgated history of all the Vulcans if Rudolf would send me by bl**dy book back:) :)

You mean The Vulcan Story? nah, that Vulcan book is a load of old rubbish!
(actually the serials and disposals are pretty accurate, seen as I got the list direct from the manufacturer).

Cheers Bob,

We aim to please:ok:

The Vulcan has been moved around Waddington a fair bit over the last few years, but not in the sense of "Where would this look best", more in the sense of "Where can we hide this bag of s**t now"

It was parked by the Thompson Buildings on display for a long time, this is where it is pictured on the Waddington website. It was moved in 2002 to Alpha dispersal where it remained tucked in a corner for the year, being towed onto the waterside for the airshow. It was then moved to the GSE graveyard by the golf course and A15, overlooking Echo dispersal, and remained there until at least 6 months ago. There were talks afoot to place it by the 'spotters car park' as long as 4 years ago, but nothing came of this.

My main point is that the aircraft in its self is sadly deteriorating to a point where criminally, it will need to be disposed of in a few years. The oleos and jacks are rusting away nicely, and the cockpit is stuck closed. Even if the general public and Bob can look at it, while he travels to the UK's premier fighter base;) from the wrong side of a security fence, it is still in a terrible condition, and nothing is being done to preserve what I and doubtless many other people consider to be the most important Vulcan remaining today. As Tim has said, the aircraft should be in a hangar at the very least, and what an outstanding idea from BEagle, why not get the baby EngO's as part of their training to chip in, and return a fantastic part of our history to a respectable condition?

As I mentioned previously, I don't see why a fundraising effort couldn't be initiated to construct a suitable shed for 607. There's plenty of space in the WAVE on the other side of the A15, and it would make a great exhibition and visitor centre too (and be much less grubby than the old portacabin that they have on the car park at present!).
On the basis of earlier projects, I would imagine that the Lottery people would be happy to stump-up at least half of the cost, so all it needs is someone in the right place to actually do it. Look the the people at Bruntingthorpe who have succesfully set-about reconstructing Wattisham's QRA sheds there through their own fundraising efforts...
Perhaps the former Vulcan people on Pprune could approach Waddington's Station Commander and point-out what a shameful situation this is, and suggest that we start trying to raise some cash, before 607 ends-up like the one at Blackpool.

Tim,

I wholeheartedly agree, And I think it's about time actions rather than words happened in this instance, before another piece of our history is lost forever.

If something is to be done, perhaps Lord Garden (sometimes seen on these means) could be persuaded to raise the matter?

After all, unless my memory completely fails me, he is the only former Vulcan Squadron CO in parliament (although I don't know if he ever flew XM607).

TIM

I presume from the hint in your email either the name you use here, or the one on the jacket of the Vulcan Story isn't your real one?

The book I was referring I can't remember the name of or who it was by, it's that bl**dy long since I've seen it. It was a round up of the dispersal of all the remaining airframes around the world. I gave it to Rudolf to have a well known Vulcan pilot sign it. He assures me he hasn't since sold it on Ebay.

I note on p. 137 of the Vulcan Story, comment is made even then that 607 was the one that really should be inside, and was just being left to fend for itself.

Historically, this a/c is probably as important as a 617 Lanc. - and look how many of those are left.:sad:

Well there's a parallel there, in that Guy Gibson's actual Dams Raid Lancaster, ED932, continued in use after the war as part of the Scampton Station Flight, before being scrapped at Scampton without thought in July 1947:sad:

What wouldn't a museum give for that as an exhibit today....

Which makes me still wonder when deciding by which Vulcan was going to go to the RAF Museum......they picked XL318 over a Black Buck mission example and in particular XM607.....:(

Without wishing to open a can of worms on someone's doorstep - how many bases does this actually apply too? Leuchars has an F3 and a Phantom on the gate, plus a Lightning at Tremblers and another Phantom round at the (Fighting) Cocks. Also, Marham has that plastic Tonka, plus a Victor outside SHQ. Are there any more examples of this duplicity? If so, it puts a precedent towards having more than one guard, at which point Waddo could get it's arse in gear and crack on with restoring this historically important aircraft. After all, wasn't the publishing of those History of the RAF books all about reminding the new kids in the service about our heritage? What better way than being able to see such an impressive bit of hardware in the flesh.

Coningsby has two as well - a blah-jet (Phantom) on the LH side as you drive in, and an F3 that looks pretty plasticky on the RH side just before the exit...

Well, to explain a little more fully, the "one gate guard" rule came and went rather swiftly. I never found-out what idiot introduced the rule, but almost as soon as it was imposed, it seemed to be forgotten-about again, and additional airframes began to re-appear at various stations. But of course by this time, airframes such as the Victor had long since been destroyed for no reason, other than the whim of some areh*le who had nothing better to do.
The disturbing thing is that there's no reason why another lunatic couldn't come along and repeat the saga all over again.
Standto, yes I was being sarcastic - The Vulcan Story was my book (I changed my surname for boring family reasons last year) and it did have a complete disposals list in it, and as far as I'm aware, only one minor mistake was found in it, so it's pretty accurate. The book was okay apart from the ghastly print quality in the reprinted edition.
I will of course include a new disposals list in my new Vulcan book, but that isn't scheduled to be publsihed until the end of 2007, in company with a similar book on the Hunter, and a rather spectacular book (or at least I hope it will be!) on the RAF!
In the meantime, you'll be able to amuse yourself with a new fortnightly partwork magazine on the RAF which is due to appear soon. I saw the dummy for the first issue and it looks like the usual load of garbage you might expect, so it should be good for a few laughs!

ah, but will it come with heirloom miniatures of historic a/c:ok: (usual price £6.99 ) first issue 99p, or maybe a 1/3 scale vulcan which you get a bit for every fortnight?

I dunno, but I suppose it's quite likely!
One of these days, someone will produce a magazine that I'd actually consider buying (I won't hold my breath though):)

Oooo Oooo - not wanting to be left out - Colt has two as well. A shiny Jag and a Hurricane in front of SHQ.:p Not for long though:( :{

Aye, they'll doubtless get dumped unless someone rescues them.
Of course, the real champions of stupidity are the RAF Museum. Owners of the only surviving Vulcan B1, and what did they do? They left it oustide to rust and then announced that it would be uneconomical to repair. Now, unless I've completely misunderstood the concept of a museum, I thought the idea was to restore and preserve, not ignore and destroy?
But then they also cut-up one of only two surviving Beverley transports, replacing it with a plastic Spitfire and Hurricane. Hmm... I suppose we shouldn't be surprised by anything, when you look at Hendon's new extension, and the main exhibits are... a BF-109 and a P-51. Confused? I know I am!

That's a shiney Jag and a plastic replica Hurricane ;)

Ooooh, get you!
 

It still looks the part though!
BV;)

Are you going to be moving that up to Coningsby with the rest of your museum pieces Bob?;)

As regards XL318 in the RAFM, it was earmarked for there when retired (having performed the last 617 Sq. Vulcan sortie, on 11 December 1981). It was transported to Hendon in sections and installed there in about February 1982, some months before the Falklands war and XM607's historic mission. Hence it is not really a question of its having been chosen over a more historically significant airframe.

My information comes from a very comprehensive article (more like a mini-book) by Paul Jackson in "Wings of Fame" Vol. 3. I imagine it is drawn from official sources but that's not to say there couldn't be an error. I would recommend this article strongly to anyone with an interest in the Vulcan.

If only there were any "official sources" to draw such information from!
Thankfully, Paul does know what he's talking about, and yes, the Hendon Vulcan saga essentially took place ahead of 607's retirement, which is why 318 is in Hendon, and 607 is parked on the A15.

But of course, explaining why the situation is as it is, doesn't necessarily imply that it's a good situation to be in. It doesn't make 607's future any more secure.

As I said previously, it needs someone (or a group) to get 607 under cover, with Lottery help or whatever else it takes. But the aircraft still belongs to Waddington, and I suspect that unless someone with influence (or at least someone who can successfully bend the ear of the Station Commander) decides to do something about it, then it seems certain that 607 will just languish at the roadside until it is declared unsafe, and ultimately scrapped.

Hi Tim,

In re: to your Vulcan book, what mistakes/errors are you aware of?

Thanks.

Steve