PAS Changes
 

Just received this bomb shell. It affects those of us who were offered PAS in Oct 05 for 06 and 07, and signed up to it before the 16 Dec 05 deadline. This letter was dated 16 Dec 05 and effectively changes the terms of PAS that were extant and which we signed-up to.

CHANGES TO FRI2 ELIGIBILITY AND THE PROFESSIONAL AVIATORS PAY SPINE UNDER ARMED FORCES PENSION SCHEME 2005

The introduction of Armed Forces Pension Scheme (2005) has required changes be made to the eligibility criteria for the aircrew FRI21 and the rules for joining the Professional Aviators Pay Spine (PAS). These changes have just been approved by the Centre Policy staffs and are as follows:

a. FRI2. Eligibility to FRI22 is tied to the immediate pension point (IPP)3 under Armed Force Pension Scheme 1975 (AFPS 75). For personnel who elect to remain on AFPS 75 under the offer to transfer (OTT) process there is no change to eligibility at the IPP. Under AFPS 05 the IPP is replaced by the Early Departure Payments (EDP) point4 therefore eligibility for FRI2, for those personnel who have elected to join AFPS 05 is at the EDP point. If aircrew personnel have already made their election decision and wish to change it in light of this eligibility change, they need to write to the OTT Service Centre before the 31 Mar 06.

b. PAS. Under current rules (AFPS 75), personnel who are selected for the PAS join the PAS from date of selection. On completion of a 5-year return of service (ROS) they are then eligible for a pension based on the representative rate for their rank plus the appropriate PAS pension supplement paid for each day they have served on the PAS. If they fail to complete the 5-year ROS, their pension is based on the appropriate representative rate with no supplement. There are no changes to PAS pension rules for personnel who elect to remain on AFPS 75. As AFPS 05 is a final salary scheme it is not possible to add a supplement to any pension benefits. Thus, personnel who are selected for the PAS and are serving under AFPS 05 will remain on their basic pay plus flying pay for 4 years. At the 4 year point they will join the PAS pay spine (at the level they would have been on had they entered the PAS pay spine on day one of selection). After 5 years they will then have accrued 365 days service on the PAS pay spine5. If an individual chooses to leave before the 5 years are complete, they will receive a pension based on the best pay earned for 365 days in their last 3 years of service6.

2. Personnel who are already serving on the PAS and elect to transfer to AFPS 05 will remain on the PAS. It is acknowledge that these personnel may not have to complete a 5-year ROS as AFPS 05 is a final salary pension scheme.[/I]

Would appreciate advice/Comments; my chief clerk's attitude was that we were paid too much anyway, so tough.

Re: PAS Changes
 

"Personnel who are already serving on the PAS and elect to transfer to AFPS 05 will remain on the PAS. It is acknowledge that these personnel may not have to complete a 5-year ROS as AFPS 05 is a final salary pension scheme."

So if you are already on the PAS you luck in, ie you don't have to complete 5 years to reap the benefit and the daily supplement thing goes away? But if you join the PAS after joining AFPS 05 you see no financial benefit for four years? Or are you on spec aircrew flying pay during that 4 years?

Sound like a bvggers muddle, can anyone clarify?

Re: PAS Changes
 

So is it the case that on the new pension scheme (05) if you elect PAS terms, you will pass your 16/38 point (18/40 point) and rather than go onto PAS pay bands you mark time at Flt Lt Level 9 pay band for 4 years, (effectively losing 5 years of pay increments) and then once you have done your ROS they say "OK, you would have been on pay band X now under (75) we will now start paying you at that rate.

Each pay band on the PA scheme is approx £1000 +/- £200 higher.

So assume pay increase of £1000 per year, forget annual payrise just to see the figures.

End of 1st year £ 1000 shortfall in pay
2nd year £ 3000 shortfall (£1000+£2000)
3rd yr £ 6000 (£1000+£2000+£3000)
4th yr £ 10000

£ 10 000 :eek: :eek: :eek:

AFPS 75 for me.

Re: PAS Changes
 

Well, that formalises the position for current PAS personnel transfering to AFPS05. It is a kick in the teeth for those currently selected for PAS, but not yet transfered (and for all others in future).

It beggars belief that it has taken this long to produce a new policy to address a problem that anyone with half a brain cell could have seen coming for the last 2 years. Scandalous!

Hardly fair, either, to those who were denied PAS onthe grounds of having only 4 years left to serve, to see that some lucky individuals can, after 1 Apr 06, leave on AFPS05 PAS terms without having completed the 5 years minimum PAS Return-of-Service.

Joined-up thinking????

Regards

Ginseng

Re: PAS Changes
 

There's a lot more to it than has been mentioned above

(Jambo, you'll get stiffed for 6K not 10, cos you don't increment on joining, so the first year you're on a par 'ish' - actually less a bit - with what you should be on, so it's the end of 1st, 2nd & 3rd yr increments you don't get, coming inline at end of 4th yr - wouldn't hold your breath for the back-pay either. You'll still get stiffed for about 2K even if you get promoted, cos the increment difference on PAY2000 scale is less than the PAS one).

During the first 4 years, cos you're still on basic plus Flying Pay, you can still lose FP if you have an extended time medically downgraded. Not only that, but if you get medically discharged your ill-health benefit will be lower than it should have been; equally, if you die, your DIS benefit will be lower as well, cos they're both based on your basic.

Here's a clever bit:

Say you've got 2 people at their 22yr point being paid as FS Level 9 and about to join the PAS; one intends to leave after 5 years at around 45 years' old and take the enhanced pension, so he's stayed on AFPS75; the other intends to stay in for full term, so he's transferred to AFPS05.

The first guy will be paid 6K more than the second over the first 4 years as he is getting PAS pay increments, whereas the second guy is standing-still at FS Level 9 until he joins the pay-scale properly at the end of the fourth year.

So the one intending to leave gets more across the period than the one intending to stay - sounds like a clever retention incentive.

Question - if PAS & AFPS05 are going to be tied together in this way, why won't I move to PAS at my 18/40 point ???

Can I have another brick-wall to bang my head against please, this one's getting rather dented :ouch:

The NCA/Officer Aircrew desk officers are looking at this - it seems they were caught with their pants down on this too - and should be putting a co-ordinated response to the Pay Policy people (something along the lines of WTF Over :confused:)


Live from the Swamp :}

Re: PAS Changes
 

and I thought you were going to tell me what's happening at Staverton:uhoh:

Re: PAS Changes
 

Swamp Thing,

We were discussing this 4 year rule in the office today. Unfortunately I do not have the email that came round, so will need to look at it again tomorrow, but my interpretation is that the 4 year rule applies only if you go on to PAS at your 18 year point, as under current rules you cannot go to PAS until you have reached your 22 years.

This would seem to be a logical decision, in the unlikely event that anyone in the near future gets offered PAS at their 18 years assuming they have signed on to the new pension scheme.

Y_G

Re: PAS Changes
 

What a terrible mess! Is it any surprise that people are voting with their feet?

I really feel for the people who have been offered PAS in the latest tranch! That is - if anyone actually has been. I guess there will be a lot of aircrew in their late 30s who will be feeling quite betrayed at the moment.

If there was ever an example of how and why we get things wrong in the military, this has got to be it!

:ugh:

Re: PAS Changes
 

I wonder what other clauses and caveats are hidden in the AFPS05 and PAS?

Did anyone ever actually get a straight answer to the issues surrounding payment of the second EDP lump sum at age 65 if you die before reaching that age?

With less that 3 months to go until the "big change" how do they propose that aircrew in hot sandy places get to assess this?

Re: PAS Changes
 

Great, just what I needed...PA offered, and I need to put my OTT into PSF soon. Just how is this going to affect my decision to take PA or not. Can someone please translate the above into simple terms for a simple bloke?

Re: PAS Changes
 

What an absolute bloody mess!!!!! How are the guys meant to understand what their Terms of Service are? I would suggest a long line outside respective Admin offices asking for clarification and advice but those who should understand the regs are probably just as confused.

The fallback will be, as usual, the guys should seek independant financial advice.

This is a disgrace.

Re: PAS Changes
 

Re: PAS Changes
 

A Disgrace it is.
Lets see:
2004 "We are introducing a new pension scheme: APS 05"
2005 (Feb) "APS 2005 will be introduced this year. You will get an OTT Pack-up From July '05 and you will have 3 months to make a D"
2005 (August) "OTT Packs delayed. We will delay the deadline for decision to join until Nov 05"
2005 (November) "All OTT packs delivered (wrong!!) BUT we made some mistakes for Spec Aircrew, PAS and THE WHOLE ARMY. - Delay deadline until Jan 2006"
2005 (December) PAS conditions changed. Letter sent outlining issues (at time of majority on 2 weeks leave (Or deployed OS so can't get message!")
2006 (January) Receive Letter. Disbelief at moving goal posts. Struggle to get '3 months' expert financial advice as facts haven't been finalised. Better retain deadline just to keep the date NEAR 2005. Turn to PPRUNE for advice......
By The way, we will introduce a NEW Pay Computer system in 2006 where we can all manage our own pay & affairs.
keep it comin'

Swamp Thing
 

Should I take it that you are not very impressed?!

Regards

Ginseng

Re: PAS Changes
 

Yeller_Gait

Joining PAS at the 18/40 point is not mentioned in the letter

(there's another issue here - the original letter that came out of Pay Policy has a para 3 that states that all aircrew are to receive a copy of the letter; this hasn't happened, and the fact that you are having to rely on an e-mail emphasises that - I know that most people have so far only seen an extract from the original, if they're lucky (the original came out on 16 Dec - strangely enough that's the date that people picked up on the last PAS board had to make a decision by ... PTC co-ordination at its best ... ))

As far as I'm aware you can still only join PAS at 22yrs - but see the previous mega e-mail !!

Keep pluggin' away


Live from the Swamp :}

Re: PAS Changes
 

Ginseng

Bent over and ready to receive as ever :mad:


Live from the Swamp :}

Re: PAS Changes
 

I still have two questions:

1. Those NCA who were offered PAS after the Oct 05 board and accepted, signed as having read and accepted the PAS terms of service prior to 16 Dec 05 (the deadline to transfer). As this change was effective from 16 Dec 05, and therefore the date we signed was before this, do we have reserve rights to the pre-change terms of service?

2. After the fourth year of remaining on the Pay 2000 scale of basic and flying pay, do you transfer to the PAS level that you would have joined in 2006 or to the level you would have achieved by 2011? eg. If you expected to join at level 14 this year, will you join at level 14 in 2011 or level 19? The letter appears ambiguous for thickos like myself.

Re: PAS Changes
 

There are several us of us here who are also in the same boat, we have been told by our Chf Clrk that our only option is redress. Anyone else been told this or have any more information on this and is anyone else planning to go down this road (we may be able to compare notes). We are planning to offer the solution that is used for FRI payments, that we sign a contract that states, should we PVR in the first five years of PAS we agree to accept an abated pension at basic Flt Lt rate as per AFPS 75.

BG

Re: PAS Changes
 

I am still about 4 years away from my 22 and hopefully being offered PAS, but after much thought I decided I would go for the new pension (AFPS 05).
This change means that should I and a colleague who is still on AFPS 75 both be selected for PAS in the future:
 he/she will start the PAS system with all the increments and all the protection of having a combined basic and flying pay immediately
 while I will mark time on FS pay band 9 plus flying pay for 4 years
This appears to be an indication that a commitment to the RAF, by opting for the new AFPS 05, is to be penalised. As a result I phoned the Offer To Transfer (OTT) helpline, 02392 702197 or mil 93844 2197 (found inside the front cover of the guide). I told them I wished to reconsider my choice and very helpfully they are sending out the paperwork to me again so I can consider this latest change to the offer. According to the PMA letter, and confirmed with the OTT helpline, we have until 31 Mar 06 to make the decision.
Perhaps withdrawing any decisions until the last minute (the date of which may well change itself) may help concentrate minds.
I agree a far more acceptable solution would be to introduce a Return of Service of 5 years on acceptance of PAS.
Eosds:(

Re: PAS Changes
 

Banggearo, Redress seems the only option if it cant be sorted out swiftly by PMA. The other option is to suggest that our flying pay is increased annually to give our total pay (basic+ flying) parity with the appropriate PAS level that we should be on. This would mean anyone leaving within the four years would only receive a pension based on their basic pay, but would have received their entitled PAS level pay, therefore satisfying "us and them".

Avtur
 

You'll be asking for flying pay to be pensioned next. Oops, isn't that where this all began about 10 years ago?

Regards

Ginseng

Re: PAS Changes
 

Hi Gang;

Not seen anything in print yet about this...but all seems disturbing news.
Anyone clarified this 18 year/22 year thing as I think most of us NCA are transferring at age 40 at the mo.....:*

Preparing the bat once again...great innit???

Regards...SFS:cool:

Re: PAS Changes
 

Only just heard about this via prune. When chased, the Chf Clk said that he didn't think it was that important to publicise!! :mad:

Still, I'm told by the Desk Officer that PMA are running with it to the Pay n Pensions people, as it was as a surprise to them as it was advertised to us.

Here's in hope, but not holding ones breath.

Re: PAS Changes
 

The position seems to be that selection for the PAS will be at or beyond the EDP point (At least 18 years service and at least age 40). Actual transfer to PAS will take place 4 years beyond the effective selection date, into the PAS level that you would have attained by that time if you had been transferred on the selection date. For the intervening 4 years, you would continue to receive your current rates of basic and flying pay, plus any annual increments which you may be due over that time. If you are less than 4 years from the top level of your current pay band, it seems to me that you must lose out in pay terms over all or part of that time, when compared with the "current" immediate transfer to PAS, although SPPol & Pen appear to assert that that is not the case.

Regards

Ginseng

Re: PAS Changes
 

I am PAS (nearly 2 years) and opted for the new pension plan and have received no correspondance at all. It is dangerous to assume that this means that I am immune from this, can anybody with the letter advise. Is the 5 year leg iron still intact?

Tiger Mate
 

In your case, no, it appears not. From the transfer date, you could leave on AFPS05 terms (provided you have reached age 40 and have at least 18 years service), though with an EDP until age 65.

Regards

Ginseng

Re: PAS Changes
 

:confused: Might be worth noting that there is a paragraph within the orange pension book we signed for on page 7 para 8 which mentions your choices if you wish not to join and rejoin AFPS05 at a later date you can so as long as you can prove you are medically fit and under age 55.

Although i have not quoted the para exactly as i don't have it on me there are two ways to read this. Firstly that if you wish not to join AFPS05 now and decide to stay on AFPS75 you have one opportunity to join at a later date. which means you could stay on AFPS75 and change to AFPS05 once you have cleared 4 years PAS.
Secondly and the way i believe it is meant to read is that you can "contract out" into a personal scheme (please note that is the legal wording they should have used in that para) and then rejoin only once at a later date.

I have emailed the OTT bunch through handbrake and was forwarded a statement from them that it didn't mean the first option, however they didn't clarify that it was infact meant to mean the second. the statement also mentioned the author of this paragraph should be fired !!

Pretty good document when the agency dealing with it thinks this.

I know of at least one person who made his decision on this paragraph believing the former option!

Does anyone else think that allowing personnel to be able to chose a personal pension and then be allowed to be able to rejoin AFPS05 but not to allow those on AFPS75 the chance to rejoin AFPS05 at a later date discriminatory ??

Personally i have now emailed them through handbrake my thoughts on the above and its implications in my decision making and yet to recieve a reply although they have graced me with an extension until 31 March will the try to dig themselves a bigger hole.

White Noise
 

The decision to opt out of the AFPS, be it AFPS75 or AFPS05, is open to you only during the first 6 months of your Service. That is, you can only opt out at or within 6 months of first joining. Should you do this, the scheme rules allow you one opportunity to apply to reverse that decision at a later date. You cannot opt out later than 6 months into your service, and the transfer from AFPS 75 to AFPS05 is not an opt in/out decision in the same sense. If you leave the service now, from within AFPS75, and were to rejoin at a later date after the transfer date, you would automatically re-enter under AFPS05 only, unless you opted out of the AFPS altogether in favour of personal arrangements.

That's my understanding.

Regards

Ginseng

Re: PAS Changes
 

Seems like a bit of a cluster all round. Looks like i fall into the category of dipping out, was offered PAS from Oct05 board when out in sandy places, got back on 16 Dec, got my letter of offer to transfer to PAS that day, saw the date and got it in the post due to the reply date being that day. So a bit rushed to say the least. Now it seems that at my 22 year point (reckonable service, actually 23 1/3 years as i joined at 16) im going to dip out. If only my parents had done the deed a year and a bit earlier. Nice to see the RAF is so loyal to its people, or is that just a one way thing. No wonder people get cheesed off, just one thing after another. The powers to be always state that its people are the most important assett, does anyone believe this?

Re: PAS Changes
 

Maybe some light! Spoke with chap at Pay Policy (whose no. is on the letter) and he says the policy has been withdrawn as from today! Something to do with problems with Death in Service benefits.

He reckons that if you have been offered PA, you will transfer onto PA regardless of which pension scheme you are on. T letter will follow in due course.

However, I'll believe it when I see it!

Re: PAS Changes
 

Iustitia omnibus !

Just bear in mind that it is Friday the 13th ... though, at least it isn't April 1st

Live from the Swamp :}

Re: PAS Changes
 

Hopefully good news, until the next attempt to change the goalposts. Thanks to all those ppuners who did some fact-finding leg work.

Re: PAS Changes
 

Not really ref the 4 yr debacle but PAS/AFPS 05 related,

A conversation I had with a chap in PMA late last year stated that they envisage those who stay on the old pesion scheme will be boarded/offered PAS at the 22 yr point and those who change to the new pension will be boarded and move to PAS at 18 yrs. This was only the perceived route and was not policy at the time, perhaps it is now ?

It doesn't address the mark time nonsense either.

Ginge

Re: PAS Changes
 

It honestly makes you want to despair! Yet another policy that hadn't been fully thought through - what a surprise! At least the end result in this case is a good one, but I'm fearful about what they will come up with next.

What confidence does this inspire in all the other changes being planned?:confused:

Re: PAS Changes
 

A mate mentioned to me that the last NCA PAS board (october?) was for those who will take up PAS for the next 3 yrs, anyone heard this, I thought there was a board every year ?

Ginge

Re: PAS Changes
 

Hi have heard rumours that they boarded for two years. which means they are not looking at the 18/40 point.well for me anyway

Re: PAS Changes
 

My understanding is that they board every year for PA, and will look at you from 3 yrs before your option point. So, if you don't get picked up with 3 yrs to go you have another shot every year threreafter.

Re: PAS Changes
 

NCA boards have looked at people with one year to go til their 22yr point until the last one, which was at the back-end of October and looked at people with up to 2 years til their 22yr point. Hopefully future ones will do the same (or even go to 3 yrs before). If you don't get picked up with 2 yrs to go I believe that you can be looked at again the following year (I'm not positive about the officer boards, but I believe that people up to 3 yrs from transfer have been looked at, though I have heard stories that conflict with that). Not sure whether if you turned down the offer at 2yrs for some reason you'd be looked at again though.

What I'm not sure about is whether airman engagements are being changed with the new pension scheme, so people in the future will be signed-on til 18/40, LOS30(?), 55yrs , rather than 22yrs, LOS30/age 47, age 55. If the engagements change, it would make sense to board relative to the 18/40 point. If the engagement remains to 22yrs (which it could as it takes you past your EDP) then the PAS boarding date won't move cos it's based against LOS (I take it that all officer engagements will move til 18/40 from 16/38).

If the engagement terms for NCA change from 22yrs to 18/40 if you are on AFPS05, then surely anyone already boarded and accepted but not yet on PAS should move to it at their 18/40 not 22yrs if they accept the new scheme ...

Hands up all those who really believe all this has actually been decided yet, and keep your hands up if you feel that you know enough FACTS to make a solid decision about your future :confused:


Live from the Swamp :}

It's now in writing, can now stop holding my breath!! Until the next time.......

1. DIN02-246 issued on 16 Dec 05 outlined the changes to eligibility to the PAS/PES(A) under Armed Forces Pension Scheme 2005 (AFPS 05). In order to protect an individual’s dependents benefits under their chosen AFPS, which could have been adversely affected as a consequence of the introduction of the new PAS/PES(A) eligibility rules, the policy has been reviewed.

Consequently, all personnel who serve under AFPS 05 and are selected for the PAS/PES(A) will join the PAS/PES(A) pay spine on the date that they are appointed to the PAS/PES(A). There are no changes to PAS/PES(A) eligibility rules Under AFPS 05 as outlined in DIN02-246.

2. Personnel who, as a result of this policy change, feel they need more time to make their OTT election decision
can request a decision election extension through their unit staffs.

I transferred to PAS over a year ago and transferred to AFPS 05 a few months ago - where does that put me?

Totally confuesde nwo...:confused: