The Last Tommy
 

Fellow Prunners, this thread has been running on the 'other means' and I think is worthy of our support as well, particularly at this time of year:

The Last Tommy

We should not let these brave men go without a last hurrah to show that we have not forgotten

PCD

An excellent suggestion on ARRSE, that the last WWI serviceman should receive a state funeral. Wouldn't it be a refreshing change if our politicians did something right for once?

Re WW1 survivors, today's (6th Nov) News of World, is running article claiming 9 current UK survivors;

Sorry no link available

RE State Funeral, yes subject to family wishes

PZU- Out of Africa

I've not seen the NoW - does it include William Stone, who is an RN vereran? Last year aged 103 he walked unaided to The Cenotaph to place a wreath marking the 90th anniversary of the start of WW1, and he went to Dunkirk 5 times during the evacuation.

At the rate he is going I think he'll outlive me ...:ok:

Theres also an article in the Sunday Telegraph magazine about them. Theres a profile/photograph of each one. Two of them are 109! I'll hang on to it if anyone wants it.

email sent to my MP, please try to do the same, it only takes a few seconds.

Focks - I'd like to see a copy.

Old soldiers never die they simply fade away... :sad:

We had one who disappeared in Flanders. Gran hung onto the hope that it was her brother under that slab in Westminster Abbey. I still remember, but when I too am gone, there'll be no-one left who does and Great Uncle William will have finally faded...

Two of these old boys have a strong connection with you blokes on the military forum of PPRuNe, as they were aircraft groundcrew. One from the RNAS, one from the RFC:

The Guardian website printed extracts of interviews with both:

"Henry Allingham
109 (born June 6 1896)
Air mechanic, Royal Naval Air Service

I wanted to go straight into the service, but my mother was on her own and she didn't want that. So I carried on working for a while. Then, in September 1915, my mother died aged just 42. As soon as I lost her, I joined up.

I went to the RAC in Pall Mall. I had a Triumph TT motorbike at the time and they were looking for dispatch riders for the Royal Engineers. When I told them about my bike, they said they would accept it and that all I had to do was pass the medical. I went along with two others, and they put my name down. I waited. Monday came and still no call and I didn't like that. I wanted them to send for me quickly. I was impatient. Then, one day, I went out for a ride on my pushbike, and I saw an aeroplane and I thought, "That's for me!"

When we were flying off the ships, we couldn't stay airborne for long because we would run out of fuel - that was the trouble. People sometimes had to ditch their aircraft. I saw about seven ditchings. Sometimes the plane would be going up steeply, then it would stop and start going back and it would have no speed - no power. The wind was stronger than the power it had to go forward. In about 12 months they were able to overcome that with a lot more power.

We never ditched - fortunately - because if you ditched, you were in big trouble. We never had any parachutes and we didn't have radio. We had pigeons which we carried in a basket, but I never had to use them. Some of our people who were adrift in the drink could be there for up to five days, and they used to let the pigeons go. They would fly back to the loft at the station, and a search party would be sent out to look for them. As a general rule, after five days of searching, they would give up, and the men were lost. However, I met a fellow once who was on leave from the Halcyon; he was sitting beside me one afternoon by the river Dee, and he said how he had been lucky. He had ditched and they were about to give up looking for him when somebody thought they saw something - and sure enough, it was him. He was very lucky.

In those days, you had an open cockpit and it was very cold. You had a leather jacket and a leather helmet, and you'd put Vaseline on your face, and you had gloves to protect you from frostbite. The standard issue was long johns and you had a thick shirt and a vest. Over the top of that you had a grey shirt and a tunic. Your working gear was a tunic with patch pockets, which was very useful and practical.

Then you had a choice: you could have trews or you could wear britches and puttees [strips of cloth wound around the leg to form leggings], which took a while to put on. With regard to equipment, you didn't have gun mountings in the aircraft until about June of 1916. That was when we first got the Lewis gun. Once Lewis guns were mounted on our planes, we had the problem of trying to shoot through the propeller. In the air, if you tried it, you'd just shoot the prop away. Then they developed the synchromesh gear with the engine, which synchronised the firing of the machine gun through the prop. But when I first got in the cockpit, it was my job to sit behind the pilot and defend the plane with a pair of Lee Enfield rifles.

In September 1917, we were sent to France to support the Royal Flying Corps. I joined No 12 Squadron RNAS at Petit Synthe, near Dunkirk. The squadron had been formed in June 1917 and was equipped with a mixture of Sopwith Pups, Triplanes and Camels.

The first thing I did when I got to Calais was have a nice plate of egg and chips. My job was to service aircraft and to rescue aircraft parts from any machine that crashed behind the lines of trenches.

As mechanics, we had to keep the aircraft flying using anything we could. The pilots liked to take their mechanics up in the plane with them, because that way they knew the mechanics would service the plane properly. I used to sit behind the pilot and drop out bombs. If the enemy appeared, I used to open fire with the Lewis gun.

Once when we were moving forward on the Ypres Salient to support the offensive, we got to this particular place just as it got dark. It was a strange place and we hadn't been cleared to go forward by the Canadian engineers. There was a lot of fighting in the area and you couldn't walk about as it was too dangerous. It was safest to stay put, so I stuck where I was. I put my groundsheet and blanket down on a bit of concrete and I went to sleep. You didn't have a pillow. You put your boots together and you'd sleep with your head on them.

I got up in the night, took a couple of paces and fell straight into a shell hole. It was absolutely stinking. There was everything in there, you name it - dead rats, no end of rats. You know what they fed on in this hole? The bodies of the boys listed as missing.

So there I was, in this filthy great big hole. I decided to take a chance and I moved to the left. If I'd gone to the right, I don't know what would have happened. It was shallow and I managed to get to my feet, and I tried to climb out. I tried several times, but no joy. Somehow, though, and I don't know how, I heaved my belly up on to the side, and I could just pull myself out. I was soaking wet, right up to my armpits, but I had to stay where I was until daylight. I didn't dare move again. I wore that kit until it dried off on my body.

We all got lice in our clothes. We used to run the seam of the shirt over a candle flame to get rid of them. Of course, you'd wash your shirt if you could - and when you did wash it, you'd hang it on a bit of line. Next thing you'd see was the lice crawling along the line.

Thinking back to the first war, I don't think I knew what to expect. I thought we'd win - but I never thought we'd have to fight again like that for 100 years. I'll never forget my comrades, but you can't dwell on the terrible things that happened. You couldn't go on if you did. But on days like Armistice Day, I pray for them. At the Cenotaph in 2004, I was thinking of the blokes I knew who burned. I saw them come down - men I knew, whose planes I knew - crashing into the ground.

There's good stuff to remember: the camaraderie and knowing you can depend on your mate, but not the other things. I used not to think about it at all, but now people want to talk to me about it because I'm one of the few left. So now I have to think more about it.

But there are things I would rather not think about. In fact, it often feels like something that happened to someone else.

William Roberts
105 (born Sep 29 1900)
Corporal, Royal Flying Corps

My dad was in the Royal Engineers. He joined in August 1914. I remember his number was 43968. One day in 1915 I went with my mother, who originally came from the Dudley area, to stay with her relations in Birmingham. While we were there, we got news that my dad was home at a barracks just outside London, and we could see him there. He had his week's leave with us, and then it was "cheerio" and that was it. I never saw him again. He was due home from the trenches in December 1915, but he never came. A German sniper got him.

After that, I wanted to join up. I wanted to join the Durham Light Infantry, but they wouldn't entertain having me. I was too young - 16, I think. Eventually, when I was 17, I joined the Royal Flying Corps. I thought I was a big man but I got a shock.

I was sent to Laffans Plain at Farnborough, where they had no accommodation indoors so we were all under canvas, near the aircraft repair factory. My job was to maintain the aircraft engines. My number was 81853. Not bad for my age, to remember that, eh?

They used to take the planes out, fly them and test them. Rather than go to the bother of putting ballast in, they'd take a passenger up with them: usually one of us youngsters who wanted to fly. One beautiful sunny day, it was my turn. The aerodrome was a blaze of blue sky and green grass. We were in an old Maurice Farman pusher machine with the engine at the back. A great big thing; I'd never been in one before. I listened to the engine and we started to move.

I looked up at the beautiful blue sky, when suddenly, there was this loud zoom and I was hanging upside down, staring at the ground. I undid my safety belt and fell flat on my head. The plane had gone completely over. The pilot was a Belgian officer. He got me by the shoulder and he said, "Run away, because it'll go up in flames - and if the fuel goes over you, it's worse." And I did run. An hour later, that same pilot took up another plane, which crashed and killed him.

I look back nowadays, and I think of the great war as a lot of political bull. There shouldn't be wars. That war was a lot of bloody political bull."


Both of my grandfathers fought on the Western Front (one with the Royal Engineers and then the RFC, the other with the Machine Gun Corps). I remember the stories one of them told, 60 years later, but never met the other, alas.

Thanks Jacko. William Roberts story is similar to my grandfather who transfered from the infantry to the RFC as a fitter/mechanic. After a second period of convalescing, this time after the Somme, he took an opportunity to swap the trenches for work on RE8s and enjoyed a number of ‘test’ flights. More to the point, he survived and, although he died in the late 60s, he and his colleagues left a rich legacy. I am deeply proud of him.

Whilst I totally agree that we should never forget the sacrifice these young men gave, I'm not convinced a state funeral would be the answer. It would certainly have to be with the full approval of the family. I'm not sure that I'd want a state funeral for my grandad. They may just want a quiet family affair.

I think it's a great idea, as long as the veteran's family and the Queen agree to it. A letter has duly been sent to my MP.

One can study warfare for ever and learn little, but it is comments like this one from Cpl Roberts that show war for what it really is:

'I look back nowadays, and I think of the great war as a lot of political bull. There shouldn't be wars. That war was a lot of bloody political bull.'

I don't think that even Churchill ever said it better.

I don't know if this Remembrance Day video from Canada (6.5MB) circa 2003 has featured here before but it has a good, albeit slightly mawkish, message:

http://www.army.forces.gc.ca/chief_l...lish/video.asp

Well that was one of the most humbling TV programmes I've seen.........

Amused at the tale of the last surviving RFC veteran, when he decided to swig some engine oil as a laxative.....:ugh:

An excellent programme. Can't wait for the concluding part.

In this day and age it seems imossible to imagine the conditions these guys endured and the dangers they faced.

The clarity of their memories so many years on is astonishing

.... not as stupid an idea as you might think, but he wouldn't have needed to drink it.

High performance oils then (and until quite recently) were very probably vegetable rather than mineral, and almost certainly castor-oil based (if you're old enough, remember the smell of Castrol "R"!)

In fact, that's where "Castrol" got its name from.

There is anecdotal evidence that pilots could find the fumes alone to have a laxative effect inn the cockpit.... but maybe meeting a staffel of Fokkers would do that!!

He did drink it....:O

He did explain this to the interviewer. I used to run Castrol R in my BSA just for that smell.......:p

Come on guys. There's a distinct lack of "an excellent idea, I've written to..." posts here. :(

Get writing

Letters to: Prince Charles, PM, Sec of State for Defence, Armed Forces Minister, Micheal Howard, Shadow Sec Def and email to RBL are on their way from me. :)

Yes I've written to my MP (William Hague) and had a positive response;

Re Henry Allingham, was in London today (Remembrance Sunday) for a meeting, and on entering hotel lobby there he was just leaving after lunch - looked remarkably fit;

Spoke briefly with a member of his party, who in effect offered to introduce me - didn't take him up on his offer, still not sure if I did the right thing or not;

PZU - Out of Africa

And a very poignant last 5 mins of the series - when you realise those brave guys are largely no longer with us.

A well filmed programme by the BBC - just wondered why it wasn't aired a few weeks earlier.... might have got a few more peole digging into their pockets.

For once, I believe that the Beeb deserves some credit.

Filmed two years ago, no-one expected that the film's 'conclusion' (that one of the old boys featured was the last to visit the Western Front) would turn out to be wrong. I understand that when it became clear that plans were afoot for another visit by a WWI veteran to France on Armistice Day itself it was felt that coverage of that event should not be pre-dated by this documentary. There was, in other words, a desire not to steal Henry Allingham's richly deserved thunder as he (and another of the veterans) went across this year.

At 109!

And he was a former member of the Royal Air Force.

I think its a great idea but cannot see it happening far to politically incorrect in this day and age

Jackonicko, hate to correct you.... but Naval Airman Allingham was one of ours!

CV reads:

Henry Allingham was born on 6 June 1896 in Clapham, London.

He joined the RNAS in 1915, training initially at Chingford. His first posting was to Great Yarmouth, as an Air Mechanic First Class, where he often flew. In early May 1916 he was ordered to join the destroyer HMS Kingfisher, equipped with a seaplane, that accompanied the fleet during the Battle of Jutland.

In 1917 he was posted to the Western Front to join No 9 Squadron (RNAS) – later No 209 Squadron (RAF) – equipped with the Sopwith Camel. Henry continued to serve in France and Belgium until the Armistice.

He was discharged in 1919 and joined Fords where he worked until retirement. Henry married Dorothy shortly after leaving the RAF. Their marriage lasted 53 years and produced two daughters. He now has 5 grandchildren and 12 great-grandchildren - all living in America.

Henry Allingham St Omer Memorial September 2004:

Henry Allingham, a 108-year old veteran of the Royal Naval Air Service, returned to France for the first time since his service there as a mechanic during the Great War to lay a wreath at the memorial, which was unveiled by Air Chief Marshal Sir Brian Burridge and Lieutenant General Jean Patrick Gaviard of the Armee de l'Air. Mr Allingham served as a Royal Naval Air Service mechanic and flew patrols in the North Sea as a navigator and is the last survivor of the Battle of Jutland in which the British Grand Fleet established dominance of the North Sea despite losing more ships on the day. He was then based at the British Air Services Aerodrome at St Omer in Northern France where he repaired aircraft and engines at the battles of the Somme and Ypres. The British airfield at St Omer was established ninety years ago in October 1914 and it quickly developed into the most important British air base during the fighting in France and Belgium in WW1. As the concept of Air Power was born and its benefits realised, the initially small British air services rapidly grew into the Royal Naval Air Service, Royal Flying Corps and Royal Air Force. More than fifty squadrons were based at some point at St Omer which was both an operational station and a major maintenance depot with over 4,000 personnel based there in 1918. The struggle for air superiority over the Lines came at a high cost with the British airmen maintaining a relentless offensive despite suffering periods of technical and tactical inferiority to the Germans, most notoriously "Bloody April" in 1917; over 8,000 airmen fell as casualties.
Representing the Royal Navy and Fleet Air Arm at the ceremony was Commodore Steve Jermy, Assistant Chief of Staff (Aviation) and Commodore Fleet Air Arm who laid a wreath and led the standing ovation when Henry Allingham laid his.
Speaking to the BBC at last year's ceremony at the Cenotaph Mr Allingham said he thought joining the war effort would be "an adventure". At that time aviation was still in its infancy and men such as Henry Allingham were pioneers: "It was the first time I went near a plane," he said, pointing out that the first powered flight in the world had only taken place a handful of years earlier. He remembers the plane he flew in the war's opening months, "my baby" as he called it, with a degree of disbelief. "They didn't have much speed with them. Sometimes they'd be coming along and the force of the wind would have you standing still. Sometimes you'd be flying backwards," he said. "You'd have to have good weather to fly.”There were two rifles in the cockpit that was all the armaments we had."

I have already written to the PM and to my MP. Positive response from MP; an automated response from PM's office.

Michael Howard, as an opportunist, will jump on any bandwagon passing...seems tasteless writing to him.

NC43

Allingham himself takes some pride in being the last surviving 'founder member' of the Royal Air Force, to which he transferred on April Fool's Day 1918, and with which he remained until his demob in 1919.

The RNAS ceased to exist on the former date.

Wasn't it 209 that claimed the scalp of the Red Baron? (Yeah, yeah, I know that the claim is dodgy, insofar as the 'fatal shot' came from ahead and below).

What are you writing to the PM, MP's for? Have I missed something?

My old Dad, who flew RE8s in WW1, remembered that the Camel squadron, with whom they shared an airfield at one stage, were mostly pi$$ed when they took off on long patrols. Their party line was that the castor oil used in their rotary engines left the exhaust in a fine mist which they inhaled. To combat the laxative effect (and the cold - lets not forget they often patrolled at 20,000 ft) they had a good swig at the Cognac before take-off. And who can blame them?

Whilst I would agree that all servicemen deserve the thanks and gratitude of the nation, Don't you think a state funeral is a bit over the top. Surely state funerals are for the Monarchy only, with very few and rare exceptions. Nelson, Wellington, Churchill are 3 I recall but don't think there are many more. Why does the last tommy to die deserve a state funeral? Why not the second to last tommy to die. What did the last tommy to die do that any other serviceman has done (apart from live a long time). Surely state funerals should be reserved for the Monarch and those very very special people who are being rewarded by the nation. If you were to conduct a quick straw poll around your office I'm sure that many people would not have heard of half of theose brave chaps who are left. You have to be careful here gents or it could turn into a joke. If the Govt were to announce that Mr Joe Bloggs had died and he was being awarded a state funeral, the general reaction would be ..."Who"?

VVHA, Are you not missing the point - it is not the individual that it is for, but for all those who died before him. Largely unsung and with the last to go, no doubt all too soon forgotten, this offers a very special (and dare I suggest very British) act of Remembrance for a generation that suffered in ways we are lucky enough only to have to imagine.

Well, if its not for the individual then why have a state funeral? Why not have a special day where we can remember ALL servicemen and women who have paid the ultimate sacrifice.

No, I'm sorry. I'm a great fan and strong believer of acts of rememberance BUT a state funeral is not an act of rememberance.

As far as the "Very British" comment. I recently returned from Australia where they (in the ex servicemans club) hold a minutes silence EVERY day. Maybe we should encourage that sort of rememberance.

The presumption of course is that it is what the 'individual' concerned will want. If he is anything like most veterans I have met and chatted to, then he will not want to see himself as a hero or someone special and will argue that many of his fallen comrades are more worthy of the nations 'State' funeral. So who are we to demand that he should serve our own purposes ?? Let his family bury him in peace and with dignity attended by his own friends and colleagues, away from the glare of commercial and political sharks who only seek to feather their own nests and make capital out of such an event.

By all means have a national ceremony if that's what the public want, but not specifically for the 'last Tommy' nor involving him. Have it for the remembrance of all who have died in the service of this country.

Quick straw poll conducted. Out of 9 colleagues all 9 knew what I was talking about and all 9 were in favour of a state funeral if it were in line with the families wishes.

Quick straw popll of my office -
Question " Would you support a state funeral for Henry Allingham?"


Result - out of 13 polled. 13 said "Who?"


I'm sure that most of you don't understand the pain and grief involved in a state funeral. If your Grandfather died would you really want to parade his coffin through the streets of London with horses drawing the gun carriage bolted, and ratings from the Royal Navy hauling the carriage to the Royal Chapel?

Televised live with press hounding your doorstep. Magazine articles, newspaper articles. Radio, TV all baying at your door for a snippet of gossip.

Or would you go for the quiet, family affair. Just a few close friends and relatives who would give the old chap a respectful and dignified send off.

The sticking point seems to be the focus on the individual and the manner of the service. I would love something fitting to be done but can also see sympathy for the school of though that the individual themselves would not normally warrant such a funeral.

I would suggest that when the time comes, a state funeral (or somethng appropriately grand) is held for the Unknown Soldier instead - there were many and they represent the collective sacrifice as much as the individual. Whether it is an empty coffin or one of the missing recovered probably doesn't really matter.

It might not have been classed as a state funeral for the Unknown soldier but it was still a pretty impressive affair

It would appear that from the two replies that I've had so far(from HRH and the PM), that a state funeral is the MoD's department, and letters are being forwarded to them.

Vvha

The point is that the whole thing is symbolic. Henry Allingham is the LAST of a generation of servicemen and women who fought in a conflict that involved losses and sufferring on an unimaginable toll, over a prolonged period of time. Symbollically he or an unknown soldier deserves a state funeral far more than Winston Churchill. I agree with all of those who comment that he(Henry)and his family may not want this, i like the idea of an unknown soldier though. It is a vote of the most sincere thanks from the people of this country to a generation who sacrificed everything on our behalf. War is a dreadful thing and servicemen continue to give the ultimate sacrifice as we speak(write!), but short of a nuclear conflict the scale of loss on both sides during WW1 will take a lot of beating.

.C130 Techies office is clearly full of well informed people who are up-to-date with current affairs. I am left feeling that the chaps in your office can only read the Daily Sport - just an observation.

Sorry Tigs

Henry Allingham isn't the last. Wikipedia lists the following still surviving as well as the veterans from other countries.

Allingham, Henry, b. 6 June 1896

Butcher, Stephen, Navy, b. 20 February 1904
Choles, Claude, Navy, b. 3 March 1901 (born in the UK and fought in the British army; subsequently emigrated to Australia)
Cummins, Kenneth, Navy, b. 6 March 1900
Lawton, Professor Harold, East Yorkshire Regiment, b. 27 July 1899
Lucas, Syd(ney), b. 21 September 1900 (Australian resident; fought for the UK)
Newcombe, Harry, Sussex Regiment, b. circa 1900
Pajaczkowski, Jerzy, b. 19 July 1894 (born in Austria-Hungary)
Patch, Harry, Duke of Cornwall's Light Infantry, b. 17 June 1898
Rigby, Andrew, First Lancashire Fusiliers, b. 2 November 1900
Roberts, William ("Bill"), Royal Flying Corps, b. 29 September 1900
Stone, William ("Bill"), Navy, b. 23 September 1900
Swarbrick, Nicholas, Merchant Navy, b. 14 November 1898
Young, Will(iam), Royal Flying Corps, b. 4 January 1900 (same as for Choles and Lucas; went over to Australia after World War II)

November4
Thanks for the info awesome bit of research. Allingham appears to be the oldest remaining rather than last.

BBC News reporting that Alfred Anderson died this morning
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/4456234.stm