Totalwar,

Rash thing to say, rumour is one thing, out and out accusation is another.

Simple rule in this job is 'look after number one'. I'm sure the Lynx crew had no reason to doubt the positions being passed but in my experience that warm comfy feeling only comes from knowing exactly where mum is myself. If that means not ID'ing that last contact then so what! Theres always another day. Coming back to the deck with both fuel low lights blazing is never an ideal captaincy scenario especially when you've only got one place to go and for most of the sortie they ain't talking to you!

The Bag was providing some sort of service, exactly what we don't know but to slander the boys based on speculation is crazy! Rumour is fine but don't go slingin s%^t without damn good evidence.

Alright Oggin, still goin' :ok:

Paul McK
 

Nice post, particularly as you have extensive experience of both platforms being talked about. Didnt I see your name in a glossy company publication recently, in an article by a new joiner ?

and yep, still goin' !

:ok:

As I said before I was an OOW on a T42 (HMS Exeter) and was also the FC1 from Sep 98 - Mar 02. We had a Lynx 3 for about 2/3 of that time, with a very experienced Observer and an RAN Pilot (QHI qualified). We were also fortunate enough to have a very competent AC and a good CHOPS(R).

I cannot recall one incident where we had a problem with outhose wandering off on its own and I can only recall a couple of instances where mum was more then 10 miles from outhouse (which is not a problem as long as somebody tells the aircraft).

So what I am saying is that in my opinion this is either down to an operator error at some point, either on the ship, the bag, or amongst the Lynx crew.

Nothing wrong with making a mistake, we all make them. The trick is to learn from it and not make the mistake again. My worry has been for some time now that training and currency are no longer adequate in both the FAA and the fleet in general - which might explain what I believe to be a marked increase in flying accidents in the FAA over the last 5 years.

WITHOUT PREJUDICE

Why don't we try to get our heads out of the cockpit and off bridge and ask why the CTG were exercising in total emcon silence? Are we still expecting the fight a cold war in the GIUK gap?

I blame the adults - again!

Timzsta - Good points. we have (for years) lived off the fat of people's previous experience gained through training and then practice and exposure to the job. Perhaps now the cuts and reductions sufered by those at the sharp end might be coming home to roost.

Flight Safety talk about "breaking the chain". I've no doubt the BOI will identify such a chain of events and point out where mistakes were made. Doesn't help those guys and gals trying to cope at the moment.

That "warm fuzzy feeling" that anyone who has operated over the water away from Mum likes to feel can only be engendered by experience. And top kit.

My best wishes go to the crew of Navy 417 and I am glad that they are O.K. I was a pax in the same helo with same crew previously.

There has been a lot of speculation, but there are other elements which have still to be factored in, which I am sure will come to light at the BOI.

I believe that the crew did an excellent job under the circumstances with no injuries and hardly getting wet.

As for the use of Emcon policy, no matter what the circs are surrounding its use at the time, surely it is professional to practice its use during an exercise in any event.

I have twice lost the ship on dark, Emcon silent nights when mum (surprise surprise) wasn't where she said she was, and I have to agree, it is a fairly outdated procedure in todays modern warfare scenarios.
It certainly focusses the mind and makes you allow that much extra fuel for the wife and kids when planning your recovery. But thats the point, its been happening for as long as I can remember so you factor it into your captaincy decision making.

I would have to disagree with you submariner - the lynx crew did not do an excellent job; they, and probably all the other players in this incident, cocked up to some extent, resulting in the loss of their aircraft.

German Lynx
 

Unfortunatly the German Lynx was lost, it sank when the boat arrived and they tried to pick it up. But before it was floating for about an hour.
And for the letters on board, the Dutch Lynx, which winched them up, had to throw their load overboard to be able to make the rescue.

But at least the water was warm.

Greets, your Jerry

Jerry,

Obwohl Ich weiss dass in Deutschland es viele Lynx gibt, Ich kann kaum nicht glauben dass unter die namen ASUW du wirfst auch das hubschrauber hinein!!!!

Geiz ist Geil!!!

As to the Nottingham Lynx, IMHO the buck stops with the aircraft captain who is ULTIMATELY RESPONSIBLE for the correct carrying out of the mission as tasked and the safety of the aircraft and aircrew. The nav system cockups are well known and, as such, I personally would have had a far tighter grip on mother. The experience/currency levels of front line aviation crews in the light of current flying hours cutbacks is, obviously, a growing concern.

What mitigation might come out remains to be seen. The most important factors are:
1) The crew are safe and sound
2)Lessons be learned ON BOTH SIDES of the aviation fence. Give the aircraft and the ships better nav kit. GIVE US AT LEAST A F&^KIN TACAN!!!!!!

Cheers

Rant complete, retreat to cave!! Grunt!

totally concur with .Mck....this has happened before and will happen again and again until we stop relying on people with a piece od paper and a pencil.

Sorry submariner. What was excellent about the job the crew did?

They ditched a fully serviceable Lynx Mk8 (there is not a shed full of them....) Perhaps the ship wasn't within 10 miles of recovery position, perhaps they got a false warm fuzzy feeling second hand from a bag but at the end of the day it comes down to the crew of the Lynx to get back with enough gas (Minimum Landing Allowance) to account for the errors in the system.

Still big questions suround the issues of currency and REAL standard of work-up between ships and their flights. Ask anyone in the RN Lynx community how many hours they did in the last year - and also how many of those were embarked.

submariner

U miss the point.

There is a difference between 'training' and 'practice'.

Im sorry fella but this incident has nothing to do with currency. I know Nottingham flight well and also know that they were fully worked up and were current, qualified and capable.

Agreed, flying hours were reduced last year and so the Lync community took it upon themselves to ration their hours and only fly good quality training. All erroneous tasks were politely refused and there was a lot of emphasis taken on quality flying training. Simulators were utilised as best as they could and during the later half of last year the restriction on flying hours was removed and so ALL crews had ample opportunity to continue with quality training.
The lasck of flying hours had nothing to do with this incident nor the previous incidents when a Lynx ran out of fuel. What could be more worrying is that (although Im not exactly sure), the only RN aircraft to run out of fuel on a regular basis (once a year) is the Lynx. Perhaps the MLA is wrong? Perhaps we train our people incorrectly...who knows?

vec

'the only RN aircraft to run out of fuel on a regular basis (once a year) is the Lynx'

Is it always the same crew?

:}

So why then did a Lynx flight have an allowance of 10 hours for a recent JMC .... plenty of hours for quality training? I think not!

Losing an aircraft under what should have been better than normal conditions is careless at best...

Three cockups happened simultaneously:

1. The Lynx crew lost track of Mother
2. Mother lost track of her Lynx
3. The Bag lost SA of the Lynx relative to Mother

Given the generally excellent nav kit on all three - all have GPS, the fact that all three are considered worked up and reasonably experienced, the chain of events leading to this accident may not appear so simple in the end.

Ultimately it will be (as it ought to be) the a/c captain who will carry the can - he lost his a/c, which was fully serviceable, by allowing it to run out of petrol.

As for the chimps who question the need to operate EMCON silent, they might like to think about what all these assets were doing at the time. It's not rocket science to figure out why you might not want people to know that you are in the vicinity in that part of the world.

slp

You livin in a different world to me fella!

Tell me, how do you achieve NEC in emcon silence? Cos it beats my tiny brain.

Semaphore flags or Aldis lamps, perhaps?

Down and nearly not out!
 

Let's face it - someone f*&ked up. Whether you believe it to be the Lynx crew, the bridge/ops room of the 42, or indeed the bag. That said I'm sure we've all been there in different circumstances and lets hope we learn something from this.

But what of the future - having alighted safely on the water I understand it still wasn't an easy task egressing from the aircraft as it decided to head towards the ocean floor.

With todays modern plug and play technology and the ongoing search for new helos to replace the FF/DD flts the future focus must surely be for a crash worthy aircraft that has better floating characteristics.

Afterall an aircraft is merely a platfrom to bolt sensors and weapons to so does it matter what it looks like or what its called so long as we survive the unforeseen when it comes our way.

And........ box!!!:E

Ha, Gotya....you must be a Merlin bloke!!!!