Nimrod MRA4
 

Come on you BAe folk - tell us the real story - Jez, Drew, Richie - spill the beans

What story?
 

Story, what story?

BTW PA02 should be making its first flight in the not too distant future. :cool:

There are rumours about problems with the avionics package and acoustics processing. - I do not know any details..

Of course there'll be problems - it's a development programme

How about telling the story about the flying controls and autopilot then!!

Give Nimrod a chance, a lot of very good engineers have and are still working on this aircraft, long hours have been spent by many, the engineers have also worked closer with the customer then anyother platform.

Of course we need to give it a chance, it is just I can't help thinking we have seen all this before.

Would an off the shelf (P3/P7) not have been a better choice technically if not politically?

Don't get me wrong, I have a lot of good memories of Normy Nimrod and I am certainly not knocking those working hard to make it work - but was it the correct choice?

richlear

You are right "was it the correct choice", it seems that when it comes to British designed and built aircraft there always seem to be the debate should we have brought American aircraft, but should we be buying old US stock!, is it right that we let our own aerospace industry disappear.

I must admit was the replacement of Nimrod the best use of taxpayers money, do we still need this capability or should it be a nato or European capability paid for and operated by Europe.

I do find it hard to believe that we can send the army, navy and air force out to fix other peoples problems with below standard equipment yet spend a lot of money on projects that may have no modern requirements

Oh dear, here we go again :rolleyes: People with no idea about what the Nimrod can, and indeed does, do, talking out of their ar$es :mad:

What the fleet needs least of all now is a reduction in crews and aircraft. The fleet is working harder, and spending far more time away from home than it ever did back in the 'good old' cold war days. With this Governments ridiculous cuts it can only get worse, leading to even lower morale and even more people wishing to vote with their feet. I see few problems of reducing to the Governments target figures for the Kipper Fleet in the next year or 2, in fact I foresee retention bonuses being needed in just a few years time to keep the figure UP to the manning levels they have quoted!!

MadMark!!! :mad:

Hi Rich Lear - New to this PPrune malarky Registered to reply to your "come on BAE people". I'm more than happy to answer any questions and debunk B#LL#X of which there seems to be a powerful lot spoken about MRA4. Funny how those that talk the loudest seem to know the least. As a starter.....There is no doubt that MRA4 is now far and away superior to anything else. To have chosen a P3 would have been to settle for something inferior to the MK2 which makes no sense. The Boeing MMA is laughable and will be a big dissappointment to all the US Navy operators who visited the MRA4 Integration Rig and declared that they would give their eye teeth for it. The MRA4 Mission System (which is working very well indeed thankyou) will enable its aircrew to fully utilise their tactical skills and produce world beating results in the many new and varied theatres now and in the future. (Mark is spot on here, of course). There have been problems with the project caused by both sides. However the empty vessels that bang on about them would do well to find out whether or not a solution has been engineered before they preach doom. I expect comments like "well you would say that wouldn't you" -- Those of you who know me know different! My one regret at leaving the airforce is that I won't get the chance to fight this excellent platform but the lads who do will have an aeroplane they can be proud of for years to come. Happy Christmas to all my readers.

Visited Warton recently and had a look round the MRA4 stuff. The boys there seemed very happy. It was always going to be the case that if there was no limit on finances then they would have asked for more. However, that was never going to happen. 'Blue jobs' and civvies seemed to work and, more importantly, talk to each other with the same aim: to get a good bit of kit to the FL.

I'm looking forward to it.

:confused:

Mr Eff,

My comment was more of a question....I am ex nimrod, now involved in military projects from the civvy side...I know how these things go.

My thoughts are more orientated towards the political situation of ordering an aircraft purely to maintain a british aircraft industry - I was not knocking the aircraft or the team - merely asking the question.

cheers

rich

A little birdy has told me that the RAF will be looking for a new replacement aircraft soon!

BAe have done a sterling job getting the airframe to fly and save embarrasment all round but we aren't going to get much more!:uhoh:

What???

That sounds like a flame to me!

In defence of BAE, when the project commenced we (I was at BAE at the time) told the MoD that it would be cheaper, quicker and easier to build new airframes from scratch rather than try to integrate the old fuselage to new wings.

"oh no, we want to save money by reusing the old fuselage".

"but that will cost more!"

"ah, but it's what we, the customers, want".

Seems like we've heard that one before.

Quite right. The customer insisted on Rolls Royce engines rather than the ones in the bid. This forced the design and build of the new wing causing extra cost and significant delay.

Quote "A little birdy has told me that the RAF will be looking for a new replacement aircraft soon!" - I wonder at the value of unsubstantiated comments like this. I could say that the same little birdy told me that the MOD had finally wised up and decided to go ahead with eighteen of these superb aircraft but unless I name the 'little bird' it's all just so much tosh!

Hi Rich Lear - sorry I came out all guns blazing. We know each other well, so I hope you'll understand. I really believe it was worth the Government buying British. Having experienced the way Boeing work, you get exactly what you specified. Ie if you didn't say you wanted seats, you don't get any seats. The way BAE and the RAF have worked together has really been an inspiration. Together they have always sought out the best solution and not just the one in the spec. All the best, Ritchie.

As a Canadian ex-maritime patrol pilot and aerospace engineer who had some peripheral involvement with RMPA and BAe during the solicitation of interest phase, I wish MRA4 the best.

I also agree that reducing the fleet is a bad decision, just when the project appears to be emerging from its cloud. MPA still have great generalized capability for surveillance, whether subsurface, water surface, or overland in controlled threat environments.

During that early time, i.e. 93-94, the BAe systems engineers I dealt with were quite nervous that MOD would drive them to a new wing, which they believed would blow up the risk, cost and schedule. Clearly they were right.

On the other hand, I don't understand the scathing comment about MMA. The 737 is a good aircraft with reasonable payload/range for the role and reportedly excellent handling. The mission system presumably will take into account lessons learned during MRA4, for which Boeing also produced the mission system.

Bomb bay capacity (an area where Nimrod has no peer) may be one weakness on a 737 solution, but otherwise I believe it would be at least competitive with the MRA4 airframe/engines and in some respect superior. It also has the advantage of starting from newer internal systems (fuel/hydraulics/services etc.) than Nimrod.

A P3 would have been a lower capability solution. The P3 is derived from the '50s Electra, i.e. contemporary with Comet, and is not a modern design. It also has a very stiff and short wing, with consequent poor low altitude ride and limited manoeuvrability. It doesn't even have anti-skid! Canadian Aurora pilots generally try not to use the brakes on landing on slippery runways due to the risk of blown tires. Good thing those large Hamilton Standard paddles are good tools for slowing down.

The two P3 variants proposed for RMPA were:

1. Used/refurbished P3Bs with a new mission system - clearly less capable than MRA4, and
2. New P3s with mission system derived from USN standard. USN standard at that time was an only paritially integrated system with an outmoded architecture and which had limitations in the mission computer. Not nearly as advanced as MRA4.

If either P3 option had been chosen, the RAF would perhaps have had a solution by now, but one with significant shortfalls compared to MMA.

MRA4 has taken too long and cost too much, but there is no point in dwelling on the reasons for that now: It has the potential to be a superior platform.

MRA4
 

Ritchie - check your PM

MR EFF
would you also at one time been known as "Paddle Switch"
if so hope the strumming fingers are still agile, and you are slowly transferring the collection to DVD:8 .
regards to Mrs eff - my bruising has healed:oh:
Charlie sends

I can certainly vouch for the P3's rough ride at low level, Mr Luncher's felt proper poorly once or twice.

Mr EFF, keep up the good work.

Regarding the 737, I agree it's a fine aeroplane but believe it just is not suited to the rough and tumble of the Nimrods many and varied operating areas. A famous engineer once said "Count the number of engines on your aircraft and divide by two. If your answer is two or less, don't try to cross the Atlantic in it!!!" Also those massive underslung engines would cause all sorts of other problems manoevring at 200ft. I think the 737 would be okay if your concept of ops was to co-ordinate with a UAV and just get involved at high level in a benign environment, but that places severe limitations on role. Current thinking seems to be suggesting that UAVs are a long way short of the answer to a politicians prayer that was initially believed.
The huge advantage that MRA4 has is that it is truely adaptable. It can do high level co-ordination, designate targets and destroy them, get down low and prosecute submarines or perform SAR. The capability is being built into MRA4 to expand into many other areas of operation. ie C4ISR. So whilst the 737 is a perfectly good airliner the MRA4 does exactly what it says on the tin.
Multi Role and Attack! The Americans should have a rethink and buy a couple of hundred of them.

Hi Charlie,
I wasn\'t Paddle Switch but I am the phantom strummer. Mrs Eff is in the pink and misses the correctional taps she used to administer to you. The new band is called "Charlie Don\'t Surf" featuring Drew Steel on drums. DVDs are the way ahead but without SAR the opportunity to view is rare.
I remember Hooters and your pork pie hat and the waitress who objected to being bitten on the ###.
Hope Kerry is fine and you are enjoying life.

Rich Lear - Check your PM

PA02 made its maiden flight today 15/12 from Woodford. Landed at BAE Warton after 2 hr flight. Understand that PA03 has FF put back to May/June as additional gadgetry is being installed.

Here's to a successful test programme!

Anyone know who flew PA02??? Was it JT/BO again?

Mr Eff

Halcyon Days, you know I need to be closely supervised at all times and thus hold Cj responsible.:yuk:

As for the band I hope you have O2 and a Mars Bar on tap just in case the old fella gets carried away on a drum solo - I keep getting flashbacks to animal and the Muppets just picture it. As for the group name, point of order, Charlie does now surf, not gracefully as you will appreciate.:cool:

Now then for those who think the UK should have bought P3 variants it would have been a step backwards as the airframe does have a few limitations compared to the Norman and it definitely is not as graceful but does leak about the same, either bumping along at 100'or bumping along in the clouds as you cant get above them, combined with the constant drone(not sure if it is the props or siggie:E ) the lunch has risen a few times. It is also a requirement to wear the helmet visor down to pick my nose as I would have had my eye out by now.
The MMA airframe is a fine airliner and Boeing will sell it well to pilots looking for type ratings with BA/Virgin, along with selling the UAV option as politicians will love it as they will not have to face questions when some of their crews are paraded on N.Korean/Chinese/Iranain TV. What the MRA and updated P3s offer can not be replaced by geeks in trailers or enhanced AWACS type platforms but I feel the decision will be outside my paygrade and well advised by the civil serpents, regards to all the freaks and geeks at DLTS you know who you are.:8

Charlie sends
now where's me board luv, what white shark:ooh:

Agree with Siggie about the P3's rough ride - threw my guts up on my second tactical trip - only did it twice in 2500 hours on the Nimrod: L1 and after a night out in Nimes.:yuk:

Although able to out perform the Nimrod at low level, the P3 struggles getting anywhere with a decent payload, max bag you would be lucky to make FL 170 and TAS 350 ish.

Charlie - got yourself on Fincastle yet?

Aircrew on PA02 first flight were, Mark Robinson, Neil Dawson and Frank James. She was ready to fly again today but the weather was out of limits. Flight 2 and 3 now planned for early next week to begin mission system fight test. I am scheduled to be on flight 3. Fingers crossed.

Excellent news :ok: Please keep us informed in here, MrEff, as we tend to hear sweet Fanny Adams at work :(

MadMark!!!

Great news and congrats to all at Warton.

How long before one comes up to Kinloss for us all to have a look see?

RR

Ritchie - did you fly this week??

rich

Heard nothing about PA02 up here at ISK.

Perhaps I should be looking at Waddo's news pages....

OK, that was a naughty comment, I retract it. Sorry.

Mr eff
Hope you are taking your bit of string and protractor(?) with you, or have you gone all technical on us now.:8
Charlie sends

PA02 flew her 2nd trip on Tuesday with Yostie on board. She's tucked up for Christmas now. I'm on 1st flight of the new year ( I Hope). PA03 had 'power on' this week - ahead of schedule. Its all getting very real!
Charlie - I'll still be using whatever comes to hand as long as you keep rattling those chicken bones.

For anyone interested photos of MRA4s at Warton and Woodford can be found here:
http://www.edendale.co.uk/ANW/WTN.801.1.html

Very good - the stupid secure protection ensures that the images won't load properly....

I agree Beagle, would have thought a good PR slot went amiss.

Beags,

Works fine for me, just make sure you don't have your cursor over the 'protected' image, or it won't show. (Did someone say "Print Screen" ?)

:E

I/C

Maybe the fun police know of your thumb print?

I can't get the photos to load either, why not post them normally like everyone else on this planet does?!?! :mad: :mad: :mad:

Great photos - one hell of an ugly aircraft though.

Looks like it's had an argument with someones garden fence !

am l missing something, first flight, l thought these were old frames refitted not totally new???

any able to help me on that