"The 2 man principle meant you had to hold hands and walkaround in pairs at crew-in and beyond."

An imaginative excuse....:E

Ranger
 

Ranger wasn't removed until well into the Mk2 days - circa mid-80's

Even then the code was only deleted as the UK didn't manufacture the buoys anymore!:hmm:

The secret Soviet IO base was probably Socotra. During WWII it had a 9,000 foot of so runway and was used by Wellingtons on ASW of all things.

In about 1972 there was lots of hush hush. Shackman might have been involved even earlier. Anyway a PR Canberra crew, poor sods, planned for a weekend in Nairobi down to the last detail - hotel, luggage, hire car, the lot.

Only they knew they were never going to make it. They had an engine 'failure' en route which required a 'humanitarian' emergency turn over, you guessed it, the target.

What had been a 9,000 foot runway was now two 4,000 foot runways with a 1,000 foot gap. Panic over.

We made Nairobi in the tin triangle but the cranberry didn't.

Jackinocko see pm again.

The withdrawal of the B57 from the Kipper fleet seems to have been forced upon us by US policy:

"By June 1992, the United States completed the global withdrawal of all its ground and sea-launched tactical nuclear weapons. A total of 1,700 ground- launched warheads were withdrawn from abroad, including some 700 Lance missile warheads and 1,000 artillery shells. These, in addition to 150 Lance warheads and 300 artillery shells stored in the United States, are scheduled for dismantlement.

Also withdrawn were all 500 warheads routinely deployed at sea, including 100 W-80 submarine-launched cruise missiles (SLCMs) and 400 B-57 depth bombs and B-61 gravity bombs. In addition, 350 B-57 depth bombs deployed with land-based naval anti-submarine warfare (ASW) aircraft were removed from service. About half of these 850 naval tactical nuclear weapons are slated for dismantlement. In January 1992, Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff Colin Powell announced that the United States planned to retain 1,600 tactical nuclear warheads. These would apparently consist of 700 B-61 gravity bombs for tactical air forces in Europe and the United States, 550 B-61s stored in the United States for aircraft carriers, and 350 W-80 Tomahawk SLCM warheads stored in the United States for surface ships and nuclear-powered attack submarines.

........

In June 1992, the British Ministry of Defence stated that all (approximately 25) of the WE-177C nuclear strike/depth bombs carried by ASW helicopters and carrier-based aircraft will be removed from service and destroyed. Additionally, the U.S. withdrawal of B57 depth bombs from Europe makes them no longer available for the U.K.'s Nimrod ASW planes."

Never any WE177C for the Kipper fleet, then?

PN - please, I have agreed with Beags all along on this one. I am highly uncomfortable about the subject - some of it may inadvertantly be sensitive still in a variety of circles and circumstances.

If it all comes out under the FOI then so be it - but that will be after people at the appropriate level have had a chance to scrutinise what info has been requested.

Please lets have no more chat about nuclear subjects....

Guys. It is becoming clear that this thread is once again treading on the edge of the swamp. I have in the past pulled similar ones only to find that it is not as sensitive as it appeared. I am in that position now.

I can do three things. I can pull it, I can edit one or two of the posts or I can allow self-edit and self policing to take a hand. Just the way we like it. If help is needed to do that I can intervene. So, why don't we do a bit of housework and clean things up a bit - if that is what is genuinely required.

I could of course close the thread but I cannot see at this moment it would help.

Don - Jackonicko is clearly trying to find out whether the WE177 was ever used in the Nimrod. He has absolutely no need to know that. Equally, Pontius Navigator seems to have an obsessive need to spill the beans about things which were national secrets not that long ago and which still should NOT be discussed in public.

Lock or delete the thread by all means if it'll shut them up - meanwhile, I hope that PN will remember that the 'Need to know' principle ALWAYS applies......and that he is still bound by the OSA!

The men in the black Omegas must be beating a path to this guys door ....

UK Nuclear Weapons History

PPRuNe Pop,

You might think, from BEagle's whingeing, that this thread is "treading on the edge of the swamp." But as you correctly surmise it is not half as sensitive as it appears. As the site in the 'Omegas' post would indicate, and as I'll try to demonstrate.

BEagle/FJJP,

I appreciate that 'things nuclear' were most secret during the Cold War, and while we still had more than just Trident. That secrecy extended back to ancient, superseded weapons like Red Beard. Fair enough. Rightly so.

But while reality has moved on, some of you ex-Vulcan flying blokes appear not to have done so. I don't doubt your motives or your sincerity for ONE moment BEagle, but you simply aren't qualified to be the arbiter as to what should or "should NOT be discussed in public."

You clearly aren't aware as to what is out there already - and with OFFICIAL sanction - and because of that you are hugely over-sensitive. You should know by now that I'm not the kind of journo who tries to push the boundaries (and that I hold back from asking qs about parametrics or tactics), but that I am the kind of lazy sod who'd prefer to ask a question here than to wade through turgid officialese in Humph's book or in ORBs - which would necessitate a dull day at Kew. And I wouldn't get the human side, either.

You are being childish and really rather offensive this time, mate. Comparing PN to Fuchs and the Rosenbergs and calling me Jerkonicko isn't banter, it's just a bit pathetic. I know that you're an intelligent, bright grown up, but I really wouldn't guess that from your last couple of posts. Bad show!

And this stable door has been deliberately and officially unbolted. These may be "matters which were very highly classified not that long ago" - like the Upkeep bouncing bomb or the Martini Henry rifle - but they are not any more.

The most comprehensive details of all weapons pre-1964 are now easily available in squadron ORBs. We know which squadrons had which weapons, when they swapped from toss to laydown, how much they trained, what the commitments were, etc. The only thing we don't know is exact targeting.

Even more is detailed in 'RAF Nuclear Deterrent Forces', by Humphrey Wynn of the AHB, which was originally written as a classified account but, with the end of the Cold War, was subsequently declassified and published by HMSO. This gives the lie to your assertion that the 'Need to Know' always applies. When it comes to Britain's strategic nuclear deterrent in V Force days, it clearly doesn't apply any more. We're all allowed to know, whether we need to or not!

Details of all American weapons used by the UK have also been declassified, and US documents even reveal exactly how many new WE177 vaults were built at Marham and how many at Bruggen, even as the weapon was being withdrawn.

There was even an officially sanctioned article about WE177A/B in the RAF Yearbook in 1998 or 99. Please read some of that lot before hitching up your petticoats every time anyone mentions anything nuclear!

Joking comments about the

http://www.keme.co.uk/~defcon/history.htm

website apart, it contains NOTHING that isn't available from open sources, with the possible exception of the apparent revelation that the Shack used the B34 (the Mk 34 'Lulu') only while the Nimrod used the B57 only.

And I KNOW that Nimrod never carried WE177 (again, that's been openly announced) and was simply pointing out this US sources confirmation of the division of responsibility for WE177C vs B57 in response to someone's earlier supposition that the C-model 177 may have been a Nimweapon.

But there is also the matter of respect, while our government may decide to quietly publish what was a few years back classified you should know that here is not where people enjoy talking about such matters, regardless of their status today.

Methinks he doth protest too much....

I'm not making anyone talk about anything they don't want to talk about. Those who are comfortable and who do enjoy discussing historical dates relating to long-vanished nuclear weapons (not tactics, not parametrics, not politics, not targeting) can do so, and those (like BEagle) who wish to zip their lips when it comes to the Scampton Vulcan Wing and its WE177As (or whatever) can do so. I respect that.

But people who do far less than confirm what was in document Air 02 13789 19th August 1994 (see the Omegas site referred to above) should not be subject to attempted censorship by people who do not know what is and isn't still sensitive, or to ill-judged and ill-mannered abuse.

When you've read the WE177 article in the Yearbook, and when you've read the Wynn book, BEagle, I'll be interested in what you then have to say about what should and shouldn't be discussed, and why. Until then you're an empty vessel to me.

Have we not already been down the " Fu@k off and fish else where Jacko" route just a few weeks ago:rolleyes:

For one so informed................why come in here?

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

You've certainly been inhospitable and unwelcoming before, Always Dull. Nice to see that some things never change.

Note that three of you have expressed reservations about this thread (and then only about NDBs, when they cropped up - not in response to any direct q from me, originally), while 12 people have shared their reminiscences about aircraft which are long out of service, and about an era that's long passed. But don't let that get in the way of your tired prejudice.

OK, I readily admit to not being aware what is in the public domain - clearly much more than I believed possible.

However, I still reserve the right to keep zipped on those subjects I am uncomfortable discussing; I don't mind the odd anecdote to make life a bit more interesting - I'll leave the hard facts and confirmation to those who have the right to divulge...

FJJP

Precisely my view as well, FJJP.

Let journos go fishing elsewhere; discussion of matters which may, according to them, have been declassified might well lead to inadvertant disclosures about others which remain highly classified.

Not everything ended with the end of the 'Scampton Vulcan Wing' (sic).

BEagle,

When it comes to nuclear stuff, you don't need to take my word for anything. Just look at what is in the public domain.

Flicking open Wynn at random I see that the V-Force (Medium Bomber Force) began QRA on 1 January 1962 (one aircraft per squadron at 15 minutes readiness) raising from three to four Valiants (and from four to eight Canberras) later that year. The assignment of the MBF to SACEUR began on 23 May 1963. By 1963, all V-Bombers had weapons that were releasable at low level, or at 'pop up' height.

For low level ops, the Vulcan (for example) was fitted with four types of ECM - ARI 18105 passive receivers, ARI 5919 active tail warning equipment (being replaced by ARI 5952), rapid blooming window and IR decoy flares, for pop-up and high level (limited war) ops they additionally had ARI 18074 comms jammer, ARI 18075 radar jammers, and 18051 window (gravity launched). There's similar detail on the nav kit required and fitted for low level ops, and considerable detail on Blue Steel delivery profiles, and the exact number of missiles procured and the number used for in service proof firings and operationally.

Another snippet is the fact that by 1966 (when the number of dispersal airfields was reduced) Waddington's freefall Vulcan B1As and B2s used Finningley and Marham as 'near dispersals' and Wattisham, Filton, Manston, Macrahanish, Valley and Brawdy as 'distant' ones. Scampton's Blue Steel B2s used Coningsby and Bedford, and Kinloss, Lossie, and Boscombe. Cottesmore's freefall B2s used Honington and Leconfied, and Pershore, Leuchars, Leconfield, Ballykelly and Leeming. Wittering's Blue Steel toting Victors used Gaydon, Wyton and Coltishall as near dispersals, and St Mawgan as a distant. Middleton, Cranwell, Prestwick, Llanbedr, Burtonwood, Bruntingthorpe and Elvington were given up.

Another is that as Polaris phased in the MBF was reduced to 72 weapon systems on 30 September 1968, and to 64 on 31 December (with the disbandment of the Victor squadrons). The final transfer of responsibility for the strategic deterrent to the RN took place on 30 June 1969.

Or the fascinating fact that the much reduced 'tactical' Vulcan force, post Polaris, could deliver more Megatons than its 'strategic' predecessor!

Another fascinating section of the book describes how and why the V-Force phased out Project 'E' weapons - which coincidentally coincided with the introduction of the very US depth bombs for the Shack that we have been discussing. This is discussed in mind numbing detail, which station phased out which weapon and when, what UK weapon was used instead (Yellow Sun on the important V-bombers - Red Beard on the rest!). The perceived disadvantages and problems surrounding the US weapons are fascinating.

"Not everything ended with the end of the 'Scampton Vulcan Wing' (sic)."

Indeed. But everything DID end with the retirement of the last WE 177s. The weapon was retired from service in March 1998, and dismantling was completed by the end of August 1998. That's only seven years ago, and I personally wouldn't want anyone talking about more than dates - though ironically weapon numbers and disposition, and some details of procedures and even tactics have been released already.

But at the end of the day, does it matter? The threat against which a UK tactical nuclear capability was relevant has gone. The Ministry of Defence had once indicated a need to replace the WE-177 bomb, which was acknowledged to be approaching the end of its service life, with a tactical air-to-surface missile (TASM). To this end, the United Kingdom asked the U.S. firm Martin Marietta to carry out preliminary definition studies for the TASM, and considered joint development of the French ASLP. However, on October 18, 1993, the government decided to scrap plans for a new air-launched nuclear missile, canceling a project which would have cost an estimated $4.5 billion.

The point of all this is to point out how very innocuous the NDB discussion here has been......... Of course no-one should divulge anything unless they know it to be in the public domain already - or unless it's more than 25 or 30 years old.

Just because something is in the public domain doesn't mean it should be reproduced without good reason, in my view.

Jacko old chap, I think you've probably worked out by now that you are unlikely to get ex servicemen discussing this subject at all. You may have more luck on strategypage's forums where speculation is the order of the day.