Although Nil Nos and I may seem pro-Palestinian by contrast with Bubs and Danny we are no such thing. We both respect and admire Israel, hate the terrorists, and want a peaceful settlement. Unfortunately anyone who simply states the facts, shows any sympathy or understanding for the other side and tries to steer a middle course gets abused and accused of being a 'liberal' or even some kind of terrorist mouthpiece. This is not an argument between opposite poles of the argument, it's between the extremists on one side and those espousing the centre ground.

Bubette
Words fail me. Might is right. It's OK for Israel to occupy and take over territory in the 20th century because the Normans did the same thing to London in the 11th Century. The UN is wrong when it says that settling territory taken in war is illegal. Israel did not ethnically cleanse 700,000 Palestinians (they left because the Jordanian Government told them to), the PA (which has explicitely signed up to a two-state solution, and to Arafat's declaration that Israel does have a right to exist) still wants the destruction of Israel. Oh yes, and anyone who disagrees with your right wing bile 'is not representative' and not worth listening to.

If you actually believe this cr@p you deserve our pity.

JN

I respect and admire aspects of Israel, I have a lot of time for a lot of Israelis, but have you seen the way that they drive?

Jacko, call me extremist if you like but all I am saying is that your wording in all your posts fails to point out that Arafat is a two faced liar. So what if he signed up to a two state solution. He has played everyone along and now has his 'final solution' bubbling along nicely. His only aim ever was the removal of the State of Israel and a Palestinian homeland consisting of the whole area from the River Jordan to the Mediterranean Sea.

He still controls the PA security forces and uses that power to control all opposition to him. He not only allows the extremists to do their despicable acts of murder but he also controls some of the groups. Are you telling me that Arafat has no influence on the Tanzim or the Fatah Martyrs brigades?

Yet again in your previous but one post you quote: "It won't be easy. Hamas and IJ still need to be crushed, while Israel needs to grasp the nettle and abandon its illegal settlements and withdraw to the '67 borders, and to reign back the hawks who espouse war and murder." So, who is going to 'crush Hamas and Islamic Jihad? I don't see any efforts from the PA. All they want them to do is cease fire for a few weeks which they use for regrouping and planning further attacks. Who, in your words, is going to 'crush' Hamas and IJ? It is simple propaganda and unless the PA use their security forces to crack down on the terrorists it just isn't going to happen. Why? Arafat retains control of the PA security forces. Didn't you hear the news yesterday that Abu Ala, the new Palestinian PM has publicly threatened to resign after only ONE day in office because of Arafats two faced maneuvering? I haven't seen you comment on that yet. Next you'll be telling us that Abu Mazen resigned because he preferred to do a bit gardening and it had nothing to do with being continually undermined by Arafat.

You also know very well that what Arafat says in English (prompted by the man always standing behind him) to the western media is at odds what he says in Arabic for Arab consumption. He is the main reason that the Palestinians are today many times worse off than they were in the years following the Oslo agreements and in fact worse off than they ever were since 1967.

Once he is gone and it can't be soon enough, there will hopefully be someone with a more sensible outlook and uncorrupted to lead the Palestinians out of their miserable predicament. Anyone with the kind of vision that Sadat had will be welcomed by Israel and you will see Sharon disappear from the scene.

Until you pay more attention to the detail in your comments and comparisons, I will remain a brutal critic of your style. Semantics are everything in the Middle East and it is the continuous distortion of facts and the blending of truth with fiction that enrages all the posters on topics that involve Israel and the Palestinians.

Once again, I equate your insertion of quotes along the lines of "but I do respect the Jews" to those of people who try to claim they aren't racists by mentioning that some of their best friends are _____ (insert colour/religion/race). We all know that you are pro Palestinian and I can accept that and debate any points you raise as you can knowing that I am pro Israeli. I have never claimed that they are whiter than white and you know very well that I have criticised them in the past but your 'balancing' of the PA and Arafat with the Israeli government and Sharon just doesn't sit well. Double standards.

Yes, Bubbette does no one any favours with her simplistic and extreme views. That in itself is not reason to prevent her from making her points just as you are allowed to. At least she doesn't try to hide or couch her views with subtly inserted platitudes and we all know exactly where she is coming from. Thankfully, her views are those of someone outside of the area. I worry much more about views like that from the minority who do live there and even have some power. At least the Israelis have a police force and more importantly a judicial system that takes care of those who are prepared to more than just spout rhetoric. Sadly, the Palestinians only have a corrupt old terrorist who knows how to play a crowd and has driven them into even more squalor and depravation with his investment in mass murders and double play politics.

I will try and refrain from using such emotive, personal attacks on you in future but if you continue to twist facts into what I know to be false and misleading statements which are designed to portray Israelis as demons then I have no choice but to make my points as forcefully as I can on my own website. the only people who get booted off here are those that have little brain and even less credibility by oversimplifying regurgitated media bites. As on other threads dealing with the same issues, we had morons trying to bring up points from the 'Protocols of the Elders of Zion' as though we need that kind of bigotry and I won't tolerate that. You are at least educated enough and literate to know what you are saying and that is why I'm prepared to let the debate continue.

Now, if this thread isn't back on topic within two more posts I'm going to close it. Just a reminder that the topic is referring to the Israeli pilots who publicly signed a petition whereby they objected to carrying out orders that involved actions against Palestinians.

Lest there be any mistake.

I unreservedly condemn much of what Arafat has said and done. I happen to think that he's in some respects a bigger obstacle to the peace process than Sharon, though the fact that he remains a popular figurehead, yet has embraced that process, and has ended the 'drive Israel into the sea' official position is surely useful. I'm also inclined to think that he had to be as 'Hawkish' as he sometimes has been if he were not to be overthrown and replaced by someone even worse. (I'm sure that even Sharon tailors his words according to his audience, appearing more or less conciliatory according to the needs of his audience). I think that Arafat's assassination would be a disaster, but I can see that his death from illness could be a blessing.

I won't be commenting on the near resignation until I've heard the arguments on both sides from people whose views (on both sides) I respect.

It's perfectly possible to be pro-Jewish, anti-Zionist, and sympathetic to both Israel and to the Palestinians. It's a tad unfair to be accused of racism, or to be compared with those who emptily deny racism by saying "I have black friends".... I say it as I genuinely feel it, and do not insert 'empty platitudes'. Nor would I ever portray all Israelis as Demons, though, with respect, I think that some may be, just as some Palestinians definitely are.

I don't have any problem with the IDF ruthlessly crushing the terrorists (who are murdering scum, as I've said tens of times), but it must be accurately targeted, tightly focused, and must be seen to be making much greater efforts to avoid collateral damage. It would be better if it could be seen to be doing this in concert with Palestinian forces, or even with other outside agencies. While proving to the Palestinians that military victory by them is impossible and that continuing to fight is impossibly costly, much greater effort should also be made in pursuing peace with the ordinary people, undermining their support for IJ and Hamas and demonstrating that an acceptable peaceful solution can be achieved. Elements from the NI experience are of some limited relevance here.

To drag this back 'onto topic' I would just like to point out that the letter by the pilots has struck a huge chord here, because the people who wrote it are clearly patriots, honest and honourable men, and yet seem to have been driven to make much the same kind of comments that Israel's critical foreign friends make (and though you don't believe it, that's exactly what people like me are).

You have to like Israel to care that the occupation "is fatally harming the security of the state of Israel and its moral strength", as the pilots do, or to care that "the ongoing occupation is corrupting all of Israeli society.”

You might disagree with these blokes, but surely there's no doubting their patriotism and love of their country, however misguided you might think they are? The reason that so many Europeans are so critical of Israel is that they have huge sympathy for the Jews because of what they've endured, huge respect and admiration for the way they've endured it, and because they see that the Jews are just like us (or perhaps are just like we want to be). It is deeply frustrating if they seem to be letting themselves down, or if they are being less than they could be, and it is disturbing if they ever seem to be meting out anything which carries even the faintest whiff of what was done to them.

That's why these blokes have gained such respect, and why I, for one, think that they have huge balls!

Anyone with the kind of vision that Sadat had will be welcomed by Israel and you will see Sharon disappear from the scene.

Danny, I feel that's a one-sided way of looking at this. I would say that the kind of vision that Rabin had will be welcomed by Palestine and you will see Arafat disappear from the scene.

Alas with the state of Middle Eastern politics, if you go out on a limb, and do domestically unpopular things to pursue a bigger vision of the future you want for your country and people, you get killed by your own people.

I really do feel that the strides towards peace being made by both Arafat and Rabin, were undermining the rhetoric put forth by the terrorist groups that given time the majority of both the Palestinians and Israelis would have stopped listening to them and stopped supporting them. Unfortunately this wasn't to be.

As far as Bubbette saying why would it make a difference if she has no involvement in Aviation. No difference just wondering why you would be on here, and makes me wonder if you trawl the worlds bulletin boards, prattling on like you have been here, not listening to what anyone has to say. If you are not going to listen and learn from what other (very well educated and experienced by the sounds of it) people have to say, why bother.

In relation to my post that got me banned till now, i'll rephrase. I have met quite a lot of jewish people both in Australia and in Israel. I personally have found them to be defensive and you could say paranoid (I take the point made that wouldn't you after what they've been through) and very insular. I'm sure its not the case but in a place like Australia where everyone else is very easy going and open, the closed lifestyle the orthodox jews lead gives rise to the opinion that they are unfriendly and ungenerous. And the point I was making was that the head in the sand attitude of Bubbette does nothing to dispel what I'm sure is the myth and stereotype I just mentioned.

All I can say was that in the 2 months I was backpacking in Israel and the West Bank, I was invited into 8 peoples homes for a cold drink or a meal. All these 8 people were palestinians who I found were friendly and generous to the point where they had nothing, but still wanted to pay for my taxi. This may not have anything to do with differences in Arabs and Israelis, and may in fact be more to do with what I have always found in my travels, the less people have the more they are willing to give. Also the poorest people are always the happiest. Thsi was the case nine years ago, that the Palestinian people really were very happy, and had a real excitement at what their future held. I don't think that excitemnet or happiness would remain thanks to Sharon and his henchmen.