Israelis have big b*lls
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Israelis have big b*lls
Must have taken a lot of guts to come up with this, right or wrong:
From the BBC online Israeli Pilots Rebel Against Strikes
A group of Israeli air force pilots are refusing to carry out strikes against targets in the Palestinian territories.
The declaration by 27 pilots, some of whom regularly carry out combat missions, has been condemned by Israeli military leaders.
Israel frequently launches air strikes designed to kill Palestinian militants in the West Bank and Gaza Strip.
The Israeli Government describes the operations as "targeted killings", but Palestinians and human rights groups condemn them as assassinations - and note that innocent civilians are often killed as well.
In their statement, released on Wednesday, the pilots say: "We, veteran and active pilots... are opposed to carrying out the illegal and immoral attack orders of the sort that Israel carries out in the territories."
They add: "We are refusing to continue to attack innocent civilians."
The letter from the pilots to the Israel Air Force (IAF) commander was quoted in the Israeli media.
Israel's Channel 2 television reported that the pilots were also refusing to fly ground troops into the Palestinian territories to carry out attacks.
'Moral force'
The Israeli air force commander, Major General Dan Halutz, accused the pilots of playing politics.
"This is not an earthquake in the air force," he told Channel 10 television.
"We are a humanitarian and moral force and army of the highest order."
He also criticised the pilots for not airing their grievances through the proper chain of command.
"This afternoon was the first I have heard of this," he said.
Hundreds of Israeli reserve soldiers have chosen prison over military service in the Palestinian territories during the last three years of Israeli-Palestinian violence.
From the BBC online Israeli Pilots Rebel Against Strikes
A group of Israeli air force pilots are refusing to carry out strikes against targets in the Palestinian territories.
The declaration by 27 pilots, some of whom regularly carry out combat missions, has been condemned by Israeli military leaders.
Israel frequently launches air strikes designed to kill Palestinian militants in the West Bank and Gaza Strip.
The Israeli Government describes the operations as "targeted killings", but Palestinians and human rights groups condemn them as assassinations - and note that innocent civilians are often killed as well.
In their statement, released on Wednesday, the pilots say: "We, veteran and active pilots... are opposed to carrying out the illegal and immoral attack orders of the sort that Israel carries out in the territories."
They add: "We are refusing to continue to attack innocent civilians."
The letter from the pilots to the Israel Air Force (IAF) commander was quoted in the Israeli media.
Israel's Channel 2 television reported that the pilots were also refusing to fly ground troops into the Palestinian territories to carry out attacks.
'Moral force'
The Israeli air force commander, Major General Dan Halutz, accused the pilots of playing politics.
"This is not an earthquake in the air force," he told Channel 10 television.
"We are a humanitarian and moral force and army of the highest order."
He also criticised the pilots for not airing their grievances through the proper chain of command.
"This afternoon was the first I have heard of this," he said.
Hundreds of Israeli reserve soldiers have chosen prison over military service in the Palestinian territories during the last three years of Israeli-Palestinian violence.
We always knew that the IDF/AF had more than its fair share of courageous and high calibre chaps, and I'd say that these particular individuals are following in the very finest traditions of their service, making such a huge sacrifice for what they see as the good of the nation they love. I'm just waiting for these blokes to be written off as 'apologists for Arafat', 'unwitting stooges of terrorist murderers' and all the other stuff that's usually thrown at anyone who dares criticise the State of Israel's appalling policies with regard to the Palestinians, however.
I just long for the day when Israel and the Palestinians can reach a just and lasting compromise. The Arabs refused any such compromise for decades, I know, with their refusal to recognise Israel's right to exist, but I genuinely hope and believe that the pre-1967 borders could now form the basis of a lasting and just solution - with a viable Palestinian State and a secure Israel co-existing side by side.
It won't be easy. Hamas and IJ still need to be crushed, while Israel needs to grasp the nettle and abandon its illegal settlements and withdraw to the '67 borders, and to reign back the hawks who espouse war and murder.
Perhaps the patriotism and idealism of these brave blokes will give people pause for thought, though I doubt it. In the wake of the New Year, I pray for a just peace and lasting prosperity for Arab and Jew alike.
I just long for the day when Israel and the Palestinians can reach a just and lasting compromise. The Arabs refused any such compromise for decades, I know, with their refusal to recognise Israel's right to exist, but I genuinely hope and believe that the pre-1967 borders could now form the basis of a lasting and just solution - with a viable Palestinian State and a secure Israel co-existing side by side.
It won't be easy. Hamas and IJ still need to be crushed, while Israel needs to grasp the nettle and abandon its illegal settlements and withdraw to the '67 borders, and to reign back the hawks who espouse war and murder.
Perhaps the patriotism and idealism of these brave blokes will give people pause for thought, though I doubt it. In the wake of the New Year, I pray for a just peace and lasting prosperity for Arab and Jew alike.
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Good for them - maybe an outbreak of common sense and people power. Let's hope it leads to a more grown up attitude by both sets of politicians (but I have no great expectation that it will).
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Does this type of objection constitute mutiny/mutinous activity/deserting etc etc.????
The latest...
Israel's Air Force Chief Major-General Dan Halutz has issued an order to ground nine pilots who signed a letter refusing to take part in targeted assassinations and other operations in the Palestinian occupied territories.
Twenty-seven reserve pilots signed the letter, but only nine of them still do active duty with the Israeli Air Force.
Halutz told Haaretz he planned to treat the signatories "in the same way as the IDF (Israeli Army) has dealt with refuseniks until now. This method has proven itself."
The nine pilots will be called to meetings with the heads of their bases in the upcoming days and if they do not retract their statement, they will be dismissed from active service.
Meanwhile, Israel's Air Force Commander has also ordered the grounding of signatories of the letter currently serving as flight instructors at the IAF’s (Israeli Air Force) flight school. “These are not the people who should educate the next generation of pilots,” he conveyed.
In the meantime, former Israeli president and one-time air force commander Ezer Weizman attacked the group, saying they lacked "morality," that their act of publishing a letter was a "disgrace," and that they should "put their tail between their legs" and get out of the Air Force "as quickly as possible."
Likud Parliament Member Michael Ratzon, for his part, said the Israeli Army must try those pilots as "traitors." (Albawaba.com)
The latest...
Israel's Air Force Chief Major-General Dan Halutz has issued an order to ground nine pilots who signed a letter refusing to take part in targeted assassinations and other operations in the Palestinian occupied territories.
Twenty-seven reserve pilots signed the letter, but only nine of them still do active duty with the Israeli Air Force.
Halutz told Haaretz he planned to treat the signatories "in the same way as the IDF (Israeli Army) has dealt with refuseniks until now. This method has proven itself."
The nine pilots will be called to meetings with the heads of their bases in the upcoming days and if they do not retract their statement, they will be dismissed from active service.
Meanwhile, Israel's Air Force Commander has also ordered the grounding of signatories of the letter currently serving as flight instructors at the IAF’s (Israeli Air Force) flight school. “These are not the people who should educate the next generation of pilots,” he conveyed.
In the meantime, former Israeli president and one-time air force commander Ezer Weizman attacked the group, saying they lacked "morality," that their act of publishing a letter was a "disgrace," and that they should "put their tail between their legs" and get out of the Air Force "as quickly as possible."
Likud Parliament Member Michael Ratzon, for his part, said the Israeli Army must try those pilots as "traitors." (Albawaba.com)
Last edited by Fox3snapshot; 26th Sep 2003 at 09:39.
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Pretty sure youre right Fox3.
If one pilot refuses to fly its is 'failure to obey a lawful order'.....but if more than one refuses and it can be proven that they conspired to do so together......then that is technically 'mutiny'.
Hats off to them for having to courage of their convictions....... Im sure they thought about the consequences long/hard.
If one pilot refuses to fly its is 'failure to obey a lawful order'.....but if more than one refuses and it can be proven that they conspired to do so together......then that is technically 'mutiny'.
Hats off to them for having to courage of their convictions....... Im sure they thought about the consequences long/hard.
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It seems that the Israeli Army has previously also had to also deal with these "refuseniks" as they call them....is it becoming a recurring theme with the IDF??
Last edited by Fox3snapshot; 26th Sep 2003 at 16:31.
In short, Fox, it is!
The willingness of many ordinary decent Israelis to say "No! No! We won't go!" seems to have become more marked as their Government has become progressively more hardline, and less willing to compromise with a Palestinian body which has become progressively (if imperfectly) more disposed to peace and reconciliation. That's hardly surprising, since Israel is in most respects a mature and liberal democracy, and most of its people are a decent, honourable bunch, with much the same instincts for fairness and human rights as you'd find anywhere.
The problem is that the hardliners, the Zionist 'Eretz Israel' fringe, and those in the new (illegal) settlements - many of whom are new immigrants from the USA - wield a disproportionate influence on Government policy. But while there is also a hardline Arab minority which include suicide bombers who are bent on the destruction of Israel, such hardline attitudes are perhaps understandable, and it would take an enormous leap of faith to see that the path to peace may be reached through compromise.
As you infer, it's all about 'lawful orders'. The position of the refuseniks is that some of the present operations are unlawful, and participating in them goes beyond what is expected under the terms and conditions of service as a reservist in the Israeli Defence Force.
The willingness of many ordinary decent Israelis to say "No! No! We won't go!" seems to have become more marked as their Government has become progressively more hardline, and less willing to compromise with a Palestinian body which has become progressively (if imperfectly) more disposed to peace and reconciliation. That's hardly surprising, since Israel is in most respects a mature and liberal democracy, and most of its people are a decent, honourable bunch, with much the same instincts for fairness and human rights as you'd find anywhere.
The problem is that the hardliners, the Zionist 'Eretz Israel' fringe, and those in the new (illegal) settlements - many of whom are new immigrants from the USA - wield a disproportionate influence on Government policy. But while there is also a hardline Arab minority which include suicide bombers who are bent on the destruction of Israel, such hardline attitudes are perhaps understandable, and it would take an enormous leap of faith to see that the path to peace may be reached through compromise.
As you infer, it's all about 'lawful orders'. The position of the refuseniks is that some of the present operations are unlawful, and participating in them goes beyond what is expected under the terms and conditions of service as a reservist in the Israeli Defence Force.
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Cannot say that I agree with this at all.
They wear a military uniform and have sworn to obey the orders of their superiors. What they have done is wrong regardless if you agree with them or not. There are several other avenues which they could have explored before arriving at this action.
They have weakened the chain of command and are setting a very poor example to the troops, who they as officers, are meant to lead.
They wear a military uniform and have sworn to obey the orders of their superiors. What they have done is wrong regardless if you agree with them or not. There are several other avenues which they could have explored before arriving at this action.
They have weakened the chain of command and are setting a very poor example to the troops, who they as officers, are meant to lead.
Historically speaking, "I vos only obeying orters" is a pretty flimsy excuse.
There are illegal orders, and it is an officer's duty to disobey them and not to commit war crimes. And deliberately targeting civilians is a war crime.
Hell at Nuremberg we even stuck some of the top German military leaders with "planning and waging an aggressive war" as being a war crime.
I'm not necessarily saying that Israel has deliberately targeted civilians, nor that it's waging an aggressive war, but this may be the defence used by these chaps.
There are illegal orders, and it is an officer's duty to disobey them and not to commit war crimes. And deliberately targeting civilians is a war crime.
Hell at Nuremberg we even stuck some of the top German military leaders with "planning and waging an aggressive war" as being a war crime.
I'm not necessarily saying that Israel has deliberately targeted civilians, nor that it's waging an aggressive war, but this may be the defence used by these chaps.
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Jackonicko writes: And deliberately targeting civilians is a war crime.
I think that is a grey area in that the leaders of all those militant groups appear to be "Civilian".
Personally, if I knew I was living next door to someone who was orchestrating the attacks in Israel, I think I would move. Makes more sense than watching Hellfire Missles coming through your window......
I think that is a grey area in that the leaders of all those militant groups appear to be "Civilian".
Personally, if I knew I was living next door to someone who was orchestrating the attacks in Israel, I think I would move. Makes more sense than watching Hellfire Missles coming through your window......
If only the innocent deaths were confined to the immediate neighbours of 'terrorist leaders' it would be almost OK. But the Government of Israel now has a very broad definition of its enemies, including former terrorists who are now legitimate politicians (as many Irgun and Stern gang terrorists became...)
It's not long ago that Arafat himself was being threatened with assassination.
And its targeting has sometimes been imprecise, and has shown a casual disregard for the lives of Arab civilians.
It's still hard to condemn them however, after all they've been through.
It's not long ago that Arafat himself was being threatened with assassination.
And its targeting has sometimes been imprecise, and has shown a casual disregard for the lives of Arab civilians.
It's still hard to condemn them however, after all they've been through.
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Personally, if I knew I was living next door to someone who was orchestrating the attacks in Israel, I think I would move
Reading between the lines from what these pilots are saying I get the impression that there not against killing terrorists what there against is using a LGB droped from an F16 to do it when there lots of other means like using those sneaky Shin Bet guys. A LGB is just overkill which a much higher chance of killing innocent civies who are just trying to get by in one of the worst hell holes on the planet.
Of course knowing what that Sharon guy is like probably means that this is why he uses F16's in the first place. He's the sort of person that the Nuremberg trials was meant to stop from ever coming into power in the first place. I dont know if any of you guys have ever been to the IDF home page but if so you'll find a big banner saying 'Any rumors of Israeli crimes are nothing but PALESTINIAN LIES'. Talk about Totalitariansim or what
A Civilian,
While I probably share your distaste for Sharon, and while I'd agree that the attitude of some Israelis to the Palestinians is unacceptable, I do think that it's too easy to accuse them of war crimes at the moment (I think there have been war crimes in the past, most notably at Sabra and Chatila).
They do operate with reckless disregard to civilian casualties, sometimes, but that's different to deliberately targeting civilians. Moreover, the very fact that these blokes can make a protest like this, without being simply taken out and shot, or even slammed in chokey, shows that there is still a strong streak of liberalism in what is one of the few working democracies in the region.
Which is perhaps why their failure to 'do the decent thing' and get out of the occupied territories and remove the settlements is so disappointing to those of us who do have an underlying regard for them.
While I probably share your distaste for Sharon, and while I'd agree that the attitude of some Israelis to the Palestinians is unacceptable, I do think that it's too easy to accuse them of war crimes at the moment (I think there have been war crimes in the past, most notably at Sabra and Chatila).
They do operate with reckless disregard to civilian casualties, sometimes, but that's different to deliberately targeting civilians. Moreover, the very fact that these blokes can make a protest like this, without being simply taken out and shot, or even slammed in chokey, shows that there is still a strong streak of liberalism in what is one of the few working democracies in the region.
Which is perhaps why their failure to 'do the decent thing' and get out of the occupied territories and remove the settlements is so disappointing to those of us who do have an underlying regard for them.
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And its targeting has sometimes been imprecise, and has shown a casual disregard for the lives of Arab civilians.
I think the casual disregard for anyones life is what the IDF are trying to stop. Everyone seems to think that it is now possible to plant a GBU/LBG right into the car of a terrorist and not kill the other passengers. This just isn't the case. Personnaly, I think they have done as well as they could have to avoid hurting innocent lives but only in as far as they are able to do so. Alot of the munitions being used have a very small warhead in order to avoid collateral damage and death.
When the Palestinians stop blowing up restaurants and buses then maybe the IDF will have no cause to target in the "occupied territories"!