Class F advisory routes
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16 blades:
I love the way you military guys keep repeating this, presumably in the hope that it will become more true with repetition.
A few facts:
Highlands Restricted Area created 1981, prohibits civil access to the whole of NW Scotland 5 days a week
Borders Tactical Training Area doubled in size 1988. Volume of low flying halved since 1988 but TTA remains the same size.
LOTAs (now OTAs) created in the 1990s and expanded several times since then, now massively bigger and several more of them.
MDAs created earlier this year swallowing up vast tracts of the North Sea and beyond.
Leuchars radar corridor created to allow you through P600
Oh, and about the Nellis ranges - you have regular access to them too, as well as to the vast training areas at Goose Bay.
You also say
which doesn't quite square with the need for more and more airspace.
Where are these restrictions you talk about?
PHUKU's original question about how military aircrew treat ADRs is an important one. It's not just about whether these ADRs are now busier, it's about whether they actually give any additional protection in practice. There are plenty cases of airproxes with military traffic crossing through ADRs. The question is not about "some minor GAT operator's commercial convenience" since the ADRs are the ONLY routes out of Inverness, Stornoway, Shetland etc. Most of the travelling public from these places are blissfully unaware that they are flying in airspace which military traffic might fly straight through.
we do need ALOT of airspace in order to get our essential trg done, and that is one luxury in short supply in the UK - compare this to The Nellis ranges stateside, which are about the size of the London FIR!
A few facts:
Highlands Restricted Area created 1981, prohibits civil access to the whole of NW Scotland 5 days a week
Borders Tactical Training Area doubled in size 1988. Volume of low flying halved since 1988 but TTA remains the same size.
LOTAs (now OTAs) created in the 1990s and expanded several times since then, now massively bigger and several more of them.
MDAs created earlier this year swallowing up vast tracts of the North Sea and beyond.
Leuchars radar corridor created to allow you through P600
Oh, and about the Nellis ranges - you have regular access to them too, as well as to the vast training areas at Goose Bay.
You also say
any more restrictions on what we do and where we can do it will start to seriously compromise our operational effectiveness - our trg budgets / hours have already been cut to the bone
Where are these restrictions you talk about?
PHUKU's original question about how military aircrew treat ADRs is an important one. It's not just about whether these ADRs are now busier, it's about whether they actually give any additional protection in practice. There are plenty cases of airproxes with military traffic crossing through ADRs. The question is not about "some minor GAT operator's commercial convenience" since the ADRs are the ONLY routes out of Inverness, Stornoway, Shetland etc. Most of the travelling public from these places are blissfully unaware that they are flying in airspace which military traffic might fly straight through.
Join Date: Oct 2000
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Northsouth,
Just to correct a couple of misconceptions,
Budgets have been severly curtailed in the last few years and trips to Nellis are not half as frequent as they used to be. The Yanks would love to have us, but the beancounters would rather waste money elsewhere
Please don't confuse the requirement for a large amount of airspace with the volume of flying the military undertake. Yes the volume of flying has decreased, but the trg requirement is still there, and the boys have been using that trg more than ever overseas in the last 5 - 10 yrs. It doesn't matter whether you use the airspace 20 times a week or 100 times a week, it'll still be there. Now, if you're talking about a new system whereby airspace reverts to unrestricted Class G (or class F, or D, or whatever you want) when the military don't need it for trg, I'm with you totally
However, if it's just another attempt to cover the UK with uncessary controlled airspace, then I'm afraid we'll be disagreeing...
Finally, on a point of accuracy, the OTA systems are not restricted airspace in any way, merely a military demarcation for our own aircraft. Civilian ac ignore them, as I regularly find when a Jetstream flies towards my 16-ship merge in OTA C.
Just to correct a couple of misconceptions,
Budgets have been severly curtailed in the last few years and trips to Nellis are not half as frequent as they used to be. The Yanks would love to have us, but the beancounters would rather waste money elsewhere
Please don't confuse the requirement for a large amount of airspace with the volume of flying the military undertake. Yes the volume of flying has decreased, but the trg requirement is still there, and the boys have been using that trg more than ever overseas in the last 5 - 10 yrs. It doesn't matter whether you use the airspace 20 times a week or 100 times a week, it'll still be there. Now, if you're talking about a new system whereby airspace reverts to unrestricted Class G (or class F, or D, or whatever you want) when the military don't need it for trg, I'm with you totally
However, if it's just another attempt to cover the UK with uncessary controlled airspace, then I'm afraid we'll be disagreeing... Finally, on a point of accuracy, the OTA systems are not restricted airspace in any way, merely a military demarcation for our own aircraft. Civilian ac ignore them, as I regularly find when a Jetstream flies towards my 16-ship merge in OTA C.
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AA:
Agreed, OTAs aren't restricted to civils - and civil aviators don't even know they exist. In my view that's downright dangerous. Local flying schools conducting practice IMC trips in the middle of active OTAs which they're not allowed to know about is just asking for trouble and puts all the burden of avoidance on FJ pilots with too many other things on their mind.
But my point wasn't about civil aircraft being denied access to military airspace - I was challenging the view that the military is increasingly restricted in its access to airspace. I haven't seen any evidence of it yet.
I guess the real problem in the UK will be when Typhoon arrives and the MDAs really get busy. By that time international air traffic will have picked up again and the airlines will start getting stroppy about those routes across the North Sea.
Agreed, OTAs aren't restricted to civils - and civil aviators don't even know they exist. In my view that's downright dangerous. Local flying schools conducting practice IMC trips in the middle of active OTAs which they're not allowed to know about is just asking for trouble and puts all the burden of avoidance on FJ pilots with too many other things on their mind.
But my point wasn't about civil aircraft being denied access to military airspace - I was challenging the view that the military is increasingly restricted in its access to airspace. I haven't seen any evidence of it yet.
I guess the real problem in the UK will be when Typhoon arrives and the MDAs really get busy. By that time international air traffic will have picked up again and the airlines will start getting stroppy about those routes across the North Sea.
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OTAs and Class F
The OTAs are there to enable 1 Gp AD ac to avoid each other, either by excluding non-participating 1 Gp AD ac from the area or by enabling coordinated use by promulgating a series of area freqs so users can check in and out of the areas, and obtain maximum trg value when weather in a planned area is not suitable. A formation planning to work in OTA C finding the weather unsuitable can at least try OTA D without the risk of facing opposing F3s without warning. There is no requirement for civillian or non-participating military ac to avoid any OTA.
OTA H always begs questions because it covers the whole of the Highlands. However, this is not really meant to be used as a single area; rather users are meant to promulgate, on the booking web site, the specific area within OTA H that they planning to operate.
The Class F routes will disappear when the new airspace classifications are forced on the UK in a couple of yrs time ... possibly to be replaced by more restrictive airspace.
My money is on more CAS in OTA D and the southern part of OTA C in the next couple of yrs so as to ease the congestion in the ScTMA. And we know they've always wanted an airway between Newcastle and Aberdeen ...
STH
OTA H always begs questions because it covers the whole of the Highlands. However, this is not really meant to be used as a single area; rather users are meant to promulgate, on the booking web site, the specific area within OTA H that they planning to operate.
The Class F routes will disappear when the new airspace classifications are forced on the UK in a couple of yrs time ... possibly to be replaced by more restrictive airspace.
My money is on more CAS in OTA D and the southern part of OTA C in the next couple of yrs so as to ease the congestion in the ScTMA. And we know they've always wanted an airway between Newcastle and Aberdeen ...
STH
Oh dear, this is going the same way of many threads before it. Mil versus civil! Civil are getting a GOOD deal out of the airspace changes of March 20th. They got their nice new airway to NEW. Manch got rid, effectively, of the Pennine task such that the vast majority of NEW and TSD in and outbounds that work in the open FIR are controlled by Lon Mil. The new airway structure, especially when combined with the CLN changes will hugely reduce the number of en-route delays. We in the military got the MDAs so that Typhoon can play in them, when we get it. It's not perfect, but it's an improvement and it's not caused serious problems for anyone, I don't think. As far as trainee pilots on sim IMC trips are concerned, sorry but I have no sympathy. Mil pilots have to do exactly the same thing. If youy're flying IMC, simulated or not, then you ask for and receive a radar service, from your nearest friendly service provider. They should tell you not only about conflicting traffic, but you could also ask them generally how busy the airspace is, where it isn't so busy, etc. One other thing, the reason for the volume of airspace is simple. If and when we get Typhoon, it will go faster for further than anything that is currently in operational service, with better radar and weapon systems. To ensure realism of training the MDAs have to be that big!
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My own opinion is that the main problem is one of communication.
When was the last time a current fast jet pilot/nav visited a flying club or an airline to talk directly to operating crews? And obviously vice versa. I'm convinced that just showing someone the map i use in OTA C, explaining the very standard CAP/merge positions as well as the constricted areas would solve many problems. Re am I being naive?
When was the last time a current fast jet pilot/nav visited a flying club or an airline to talk directly to operating crews? And obviously vice versa. I'm convinced that just showing someone the map i use in OTA C, explaining the very standard CAP/merge positions as well as the constricted areas would solve many problems. Re am I being naive?
Nosegunner DH!
Unfortunately, who on the front-line has got the time to do what you suggest? Here's an idea. Any aircrew looking for a high profile, not a lot of work involved secondary duty? (aren't they all?) Do this as a Stn liaison job. With the location of many fast-jet stations close to regional airports (coz lets face it, it's the users of them that we are speaking about ) it'd be an easy job. I'd guess though that airline crews would have much the same problem that front-line crews have as far as spare-time is concerned.
Unfortunately, who on the front-line has got the time to do what you suggest? Here's an idea. Any aircrew looking for a high profile, not a lot of work involved secondary duty? (aren't they all?) Do this as a Stn liaison job. With the location of many fast-jet stations close to regional airports (coz lets face it, it's the users of them that we are speaking about ) it'd be an easy job. I'd guess though that airline crews would have much the same problem that front-line crews have as far as spare-time is concerned.
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I think it would all help. But don't think for a moment that it will be easy.
After months of complaining about our circuit being beaten up by passing FJ we were given a visit by the local RAF brass. All dressed up in their best uniforms they assured us of the thorough pre-flight planning before all missions and how we might somehow be misinterpreting things.
Just as they were getting back into their cars a flight of hawks roared up the runway centreline at about 300 feet, passing directing over their heads.
It would seem even RAF brass have a sense of embarassment.....
After months of complaining about our circuit being beaten up by passing FJ we were given a visit by the local RAF brass. All dressed up in their best uniforms they assured us of the thorough pre-flight planning before all missions and how we might somehow be misinterpreting things.
Just as they were getting back into their cars a flight of hawks roared up the runway centreline at about 300 feet, passing directing over their heads.
It would seem even RAF brass have a sense of embarassment.....
