Sea Jet
Suspicion breeds confidence
Budget holders
Navaleye,
Another way of looking at it, smaller budget= no justification for aircraft you have no current or foreseen use for and have not actually needed for 20 years?
Another way of looking at it, smaller budget= no justification for aircraft you have no current or foreseen use for and have not actually needed for 20 years?
Suspicion breeds confidence
Pr00ne,
That would contradict many very public utterances to contrary but a few weeks before that decision was made. I'm sure Webf can add some hard facts to that statement which leads me to conclude that it was not a "capability based" decision.
That would contradict many very public utterances to contrary but a few weeks before that decision was made. I'm sure Webf can add some hard facts to that statement which leads me to conclude that it was not a "capability based" decision.
Navaleye,
Maybe a case of the public utterances taking some time to catch up with a change in the strategic scenario? The MOD is not renowned for changing ANYTHING quickly, look how long it took to adapt to NATOs switch from the tripwire of instant and massive nuclear retaliation, or the rapid response to the 1967 Israeli demolition of the Egyptian air force, when did the HAS begin to appear on UK airfields, in the early to mid eighties?
Maybe a case of the public utterances taking some time to catch up with a change in the strategic scenario? The MOD is not renowned for changing ANYTHING quickly, look how long it took to adapt to NATOs switch from the tripwire of instant and massive nuclear retaliation, or the rapid response to the 1967 Israeli demolition of the Egyptian air force, when did the HAS begin to appear on UK airfields, in the early to mid eighties?
Suspicion breeds confidence
Pr00ne, if that's the case Adm. Max Boyce was less informed than you on the matter. It can't have been easy for him to "retire early" (they used to say that about warships and I had visions of a comfy warm rest harbour where they were all sent to 
) but at least he had the decency to vote with his feet. I still have many friends in the service and this decision has left a very bitter taste in the mouth at ALL levels if not publicly then privately.
I've just had to decommission/retire early Mrs Navaleye. After 6 years she wasn't expecting that either
) but at least he had the decency to vote with his feet. I still have many friends in the service and this decision has left a very bitter taste in the mouth at ALL levels if not publicly then privately.I've just had to decommission/retire early Mrs Navaleye. After 6 years she wasn't expecting that either
Last edited by Navaleye; 8th Jun 2005 at 18:01.
Can't remember any "hard facts" of the top of my head, but a quick look on Google yields a couple of links that relate to the upgrade the Sea Harrier was meant to get - JTIDS et al: This one about ERA and this one from Ultra. I also remember that Aerosystems International were also due to be involved, and were recruiting for people to work on the upgrade.
The fact that it was intended to upgrade the FA2 suggests that it was both intended to stay in service for quite a while, and that the Command considered it to be important for the RN to have the best possible air defence. If it wasn't important, why plan to spend lots of cash on it?
Look at the date on the first link. On that day, could you have predicted what would happen the next day? The world can change a lot in a very short space of time. If history teaches us anything, it is that we cannot predict the future with any accuracy.
The fact that it was intended to upgrade the FA2 suggests that it was both intended to stay in service for quite a while, and that the Command considered it to be important for the RN to have the best possible air defence. If it wasn't important, why plan to spend lots of cash on it?
Look at the date on the first link. On that day, could you have predicted what would happen the next day? The world can change a lot in a very short space of time. If history teaches us anything, it is that we cannot predict the future with any accuracy.
Yes, AeI were indeed working on JTIDS for SHAR 2....
They did a good job on the UOR JTIDS fit in the VC10K. USUR to operational use in less than 6 months!
They did a good job on the UOR JTIDS fit in the VC10K. USUR to operational use in less than 6 months!
Suspicion breeds confidence
The Sea Jet was scheduled to stay in service with some modest investment until 2012. The capability was deemed ncessary until replaced by the F35. Ironically if the F35 had slipped (which it has) it would have been necessary to run it on.
It would have been entirely feasible to skip the engine upgrades and focus on the black box upgrades.
BTW, I am not entirely convinced that it was as technically "risky" as is claimed. The dimensions of both the engine and the host aircraft are known and can be modelled in a CADCAM environment precisely before you even take the wings off the aircraft. So I suspect this was a treasury induced smokescreen.
It would have been entirely feasible to skip the engine upgrades and focus on the black box upgrades.
BTW, I am not entirely convinced that it was as technically "risky" as is claimed. The dimensions of both the engine and the host aircraft are known and can be modelled in a CADCAM environment precisely before you even take the wings off the aircraft. So I suspect this was a treasury induced smokescreen.
Last edited by Navaleye; 10th Jun 2005 at 09:20.
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Just to be pedantic and a real pain in the @rse, the SHAR wasnt going to get JTIDS. Just like the Mk7 SK didnt get JTIDS. It got MIDS, first off the Spam production line as I recall, and the ASaC fleet got the same type of terminals that were going to go into the FA2. So it really is MIDS L16 not JTIDS L16, but because we have had the Class 2 (JTIDS) terminal around the UK bazaars for so long now everyone just refers to it as JTIDS. Really annoys me sometimes, because when sprouted by some so called expert it really calls their credibility into question.
JTIDS or MIDS is just a hardware term. L16 is the software term.
Anyway, back to the thread...
There I was in my old Mk2 SKW, 8K' on exercise in the mid Atlantic, found and identified the A69 then schwacked it by with a Sea Eagle strike from a division of FA2. Or the time a notorious sidekick of Jack L disembarked the ship at the end of cruise with his whole cockpit full of blown up balloons!
JTIDS or MIDS is just a hardware term. L16 is the software term.
Anyway, back to the thread...
There I was in my old Mk2 SKW, 8K' on exercise in the mid Atlantic, found and identified the A69 then schwacked it by with a Sea Eagle strike from a division of FA2. Or the time a notorious sidekick of Jack L disembarked the ship at the end of cruise with his whole cockpit full of blown up balloons!
Yes - indeed it was 'MIDS LVT'- but for simplicity most termed it JTIDS as otherwise simpletons would be confused!
At least with Link 16 there's less need to wait for the infamous Roger Waitout to get his act together!
At least with Link 16 there's less need to wait for the infamous Roger Waitout to get his act together!
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So was the K fleet always fragged for L16 or did the LVTs arrive post "bin the SHAR" announcement because we had already bought the boxes? Makes sense to have anything to increase a tankers SA, plus the tanker PPLI for the fighter on fumes would give the FJ driver a warm and fuzzy. In the grand scheme of things the LVTs cost peanuts, IMHO its the DPA/DLO bureaucracy that drives the costs up..... discuss. On the other hand - dont.
Oggin Aviator, the VC10K was originally scheduled to get a full-up integrated JTIDS fit and I did quite a lot of work on it with industry. But the beancounters binned it. Then along came yet another of Trust-me-Tone's come-as-you-are-I'm-having-a-war things and muggins here wrote a UOR to get a more austere version fitted to VC10K and TriStar. It was accepted; I then spent most of summer 2000 geting it sorted and did the first flight test as captain with the Boscombe lot. It worked as advertised and was soon operational. But that indolent bunch of back-sliding chair-polishers at Wyton wouldn't fund it after Kosovo, so it nearly died until Bliar had another Bush bum-licking war. Then back it came, thanks yet again to AeI.
The SA provided by friendly PPLIs was good - and when the AWACS lot could be bothered to put other stuff on the net, the SRAP was even better!
And the thanks from the MoD-box for all this?
Nothing. F*ck all, nada, zippo, zilch..... Wanquerres!
The SA provided by friendly PPLIs was good - and when the AWACS lot could be bothered to put other stuff on the net, the SRAP was even better!
And the thanks from the MoD-box for all this?
Nothing. F*ck all, nada, zippo, zilch..... Wanquerres!
Suspicion breeds confidence
You know when you are getting old. Key ring too big to fit in pocket comfortably, and forget 20 yr old military acronyms. Still sitting tonight in a very nice Philadelphia pub on wet night looking forward to a good ADEX tomorrow and we'll see what the latest US kit is up to. Just heard heard some stuff about a certain US CVA that got involved in a Sinkex not long ago. If true then astonishing.
"Just heard heard some stuff about a certain US CVA that got involved in a Sinkex not long ago"
USS America
http://dd710.proflyersinc.com/cva66.htm
USS America
http://dd710.proflyersinc.com/cva66.htm
Suspicion breeds confidence
Razor61,
I'm not quite semi retired, but on the way so that does have some advantages. Anyone remember the film "Battle of the River Plate"? Well unless I'm having a senior moment, I'd bet money I saw the ship that played the Graff Spee laid up in Philli harbour yesterday. Not looking quite so shiny now though.
I'm not quite semi retired, but on the way so that does have some advantages. Anyone remember the film "Battle of the River Plate"? Well unless I'm having a senior moment, I'd bet money I saw the ship that played the Graff Spee laid up in Philli harbour yesterday. Not looking quite so shiny now though.
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Just to be pedantic and a real pain in the @rse, the SHAR wasnt going to get JTIDS. Just like the Mk7 SK didnt get JTIDS. It got MIDS, first off the Spam production line as I recall, and the ASaC fleet got the same type of terminals that were going to go into the FA2. So it really is MIDS L16 not JTIDS L16, but because we have had the Class 2 (JTIDS) terminal around the UK bazaars for so long now everyone just refers to it as JTIDS. Really annoys me sometimes, because when sprouted by some so called expert it really calls their credibility into question.
JTIDS or MIDS is just a hardware term. L16 is the software term.
JTIDS or MIDS is just a hardware term. L16 is the software term.
Oggin Aviator, the VC10K was originally scheduled to get a full-up integrated JTIDS fit and I did quite a lot of work on it with industry. But the beancounters binned it. Then along came yet another of Trust-me-Tone's come-as-you-are-I'm-having-a-war things and muggins here wrote a UOR to get a more austere version fitted to VC10K and TriStar. It was accepted; I then spent most of summer 2000 geting it sorted and did the first flight test as captain with the Boscombe lot. It worked as advertised and was soon operational. But that indolent bunch of back-sliding chair-polishers at Wyton wouldn't fund it after Kosovo, so it nearly died until Bliar had another Bush bum-licking war. Then back it came, thanks yet again to AeI.
The SA provided by friendly PPLIs was good - and when the AWACS lot could be bothered to put other stuff on the net, the SRAP was even better!
And the thanks from the MoD-box for all this?
The SA provided by friendly PPLIs was good - and when the AWACS lot could be bothered to put other stuff on the net, the SRAP was even better!
And the thanks from the MoD-box for all this?
Pulling the funding from the tanker kit was an absolute disgrace when the pivotal role of such aircraft in network maintenance and relay is considered.
Ironically, the spare terminals from the SHAR went into a variety of platforms including surface platforms causing similar "interesting" results in reverse in the runup to Dubya's desert outing.