AAC - Today's Telegraph
Hey...Hey......stop this bickering.....If it was good enough for Wellington....by Gawd....it is good enough for you. Now be quiet and pass the Sherry!
Eagle 270,
PS. The Blackbucks denied how much of the runway??
Just enough to stop Mirage III's and Daggers using it, and to scare the pants off the Argies that we could reach all the way down there, so their most sophisticated AD jets were hurriedly regrouped to provide protection for mainland Argentima.
A pretty good return methinks, plus the airfield was pretty badly knocked about by 1000LB' ers and Shrike missiles.
PS. The Blackbucks denied how much of the runway??
Just enough to stop Mirage III's and Daggers using it, and to scare the pants off the Argies that we could reach all the way down there, so their most sophisticated AD jets were hurriedly regrouped to provide protection for mainland Argentima.
A pretty good return methinks, plus the airfield was pretty badly knocked about by 1000LB' ers and Shrike missiles.
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Sorry I am late replying to whoever it was who called me a "dinosaur" ; I have been taking the "worm" prophylactic. Well, some dinosaurs packed a far bigger punch than their linear decendants which are mainly, I believe, harmless feathered birds.
I flew the Vulcan at Waddo in 68/69 and later flew its contemporary the Buff (once). The Vulcan was the best medium bomber of its time and the Buff the best heavy bomber. The MOD in its infinitewisdom ceased to spend any development money on the Vulcan after Polaris came into service in 1969. The Americans continued to develop the Buff with continual systems and weapons updates. It is still, in terms of range/payload/CEP the most efficient ordnance deliverer in service with any Service of any nation. And its development costs were probably amortised 30 years ago. Rolls Royce are bidding to re-engine it (for about the third time) possibly with four RB 211s, which should pay for themselves over the projected 25 years of fleet life remaining. (There are those who say that the Buff may become the first centenarian aircraft in about 2050).
The Buffs probably did more damage to the Taliban and Al Q'aida
in Afganistan than any other system. It was supported with targeting information by special forces and could, and did, deliver JDAMS with remarkably short reaction times. In GW2 the much-vaunted Republican Guard regiments which were supposed to give the Allies a hard time around Baghdad never really materialised. Andrew Gilligan, never previously a fan of offensive air power, was forced to change his line after interviewing a Republican Guard regiment commander whose men had simply melted away after days of intensive bombing. We never heard much about it because there were no reporters "embedded" in the Buff fleet.
It would be just as true to say that, in expeditionary operations, the surface forces' role is to support the air forces, as the reverse. Meanwhile, instead of finding some way to equip ourselves with a fleet of large, long-range, non-penetrating ordance-deliverers, we are going to squander billions on two massive aircraft carriers and their pathetic little toy bombers, which will cost the earth to run and deliver very little "bang-per-buck".
I flew the Vulcan at Waddo in 68/69 and later flew its contemporary the Buff (once). The Vulcan was the best medium bomber of its time and the Buff the best heavy bomber. The MOD in its infinitewisdom ceased to spend any development money on the Vulcan after Polaris came into service in 1969. The Americans continued to develop the Buff with continual systems and weapons updates. It is still, in terms of range/payload/CEP the most efficient ordnance deliverer in service with any Service of any nation. And its development costs were probably amortised 30 years ago. Rolls Royce are bidding to re-engine it (for about the third time) possibly with four RB 211s, which should pay for themselves over the projected 25 years of fleet life remaining. (There are those who say that the Buff may become the first centenarian aircraft in about 2050).
The Buffs probably did more damage to the Taliban and Al Q'aida
in Afganistan than any other system. It was supported with targeting information by special forces and could, and did, deliver JDAMS with remarkably short reaction times. In GW2 the much-vaunted Republican Guard regiments which were supposed to give the Allies a hard time around Baghdad never really materialised. Andrew Gilligan, never previously a fan of offensive air power, was forced to change his line after interviewing a Republican Guard regiment commander whose men had simply melted away after days of intensive bombing. We never heard much about it because there were no reporters "embedded" in the Buff fleet.
It would be just as true to say that, in expeditionary operations, the surface forces' role is to support the air forces, as the reverse. Meanwhile, instead of finding some way to equip ourselves with a fleet of large, long-range, non-penetrating ordance-deliverers, we are going to squander billions on two massive aircraft carriers and their pathetic little toy bombers, which will cost the earth to run and deliver very little "bang-per-buck".
Good post, FV!!
Do you think that the likes of Phoney Tony and BuffHoon would ever admit that, once again, we appear to need an East of Suez presence.....
But the RN's new armoured rowing boats will keep BWoS happy.....
Do you think that the likes of Phoney Tony and BuffHoon would ever admit that, once again, we appear to need an East of Suez presence.....
But the RN's new armoured rowing boats will keep BWoS happy.....
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Flatus
Despite being of the same cloth, I am forced to take issue with your observations.
Suggesting that bombers did "more damage" to organisations that may well be just as strong now (or perhaps even stronger)as they were 2 years ago is hardly an accolade to the attack system.
Surface forces supporting air forces? As an aside during offensive air ops perhaps, but the aim in all operations is to put people on the ground. The Army specialise in this - infantrymen are the ultimate force. They fight the real war long after the politicians, press and air forces have (thankfully) lost interest.
Despite being of the same cloth, I am forced to take issue with your observations.
Suggesting that bombers did "more damage" to organisations that may well be just as strong now (or perhaps even stronger)as they were 2 years ago is hardly an accolade to the attack system.
Surface forces supporting air forces? As an aside during offensive air ops perhaps, but the aim in all operations is to put people on the ground. The Army specialise in this - infantrymen are the ultimate force. They fight the real war long after the politicians, press and air forces have (thankfully) lost interest.
There are no limits
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Ah well, any old excuse for a bit of banter.
Do you not realise that all wars from about 1990 onwards have been won by the Global News and Media Networks! Armed forces are only put in there for the humanitarian effort afterwards.
Beware the rise of the machines. UAV and UCAV will put a lot of people out of business. Besides we dont want any more soldiers, sailors or airmen to get hurt in any future wars!
50% of all new and shiny kit yet to come into service is already redundant.
If you think that these are the ramblings of some KOS then you would be wrong. This is what civilians (who control the military after all) think.
By the way, where did you lot go to school? Your spelling is atrocious!!
Do you not realise that all wars from about 1990 onwards have been won by the Global News and Media Networks! Armed forces are only put in there for the humanitarian effort afterwards.
Beware the rise of the machines. UAV and UCAV will put a lot of people out of business. Besides we dont want any more soldiers, sailors or airmen to get hurt in any future wars!
50% of all new and shiny kit yet to come into service is already redundant.
If you think that these are the ramblings of some KOS then you would be wrong. This is what civilians (who control the military after all) think.
By the way, where did you lot go to school? Your spelling is atrocious!!
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PPRUNE FINAL EXAMINATION - MILITARY HISTORY
Question 1
Comment on Pub User's Principle as applied to:
a. Drake's defeat of the Spanish Armada
b. Nelson's victory at Trafalgar
c. The Battle of Jutland
d. The Battle of Britain
e. The Battle of the Atlantic
Question 2
In which pub and at what time of the night/morning did Pub User formulate his principle?
Question 1
"The Aim in all operations is to put people on the ground" - - Pub User
a. Drake's defeat of the Spanish Armada
b. Nelson's victory at Trafalgar
c. The Battle of Jutland
d. The Battle of Britain
e. The Battle of the Atlantic
Question 2
In which pub and at what time of the night/morning did Pub User formulate his principle?
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FV, totally agree! Know where you're coming from. I don't think that a couple of plastic minesweepers and an Air force with less of a technological edge on modern society than The Ivory Coast could quite pull off the shindigs you mentioned!
But, the argument that they were all fought over fifty years ago might hold some water! One would hope we have learnt something since...........I doubt it!
Hindsight is a wonderful thing. Especially regarding the Vulcan. As was said, Polaris was all the fashion. We didn’t really have the spare folding stuff at the time, unlike our colonial cousins with the Buff. Simplistic, I know.
Just think, we could be on the TSR2 GR4 now, and it would work!
I would be the first to raise the buntin' if a formation of Battleships steamed up the Solent!
But, the argument that they were all fought over fifty years ago might hold some water! One would hope we have learnt something since...........I doubt it!
Hindsight is a wonderful thing. Especially regarding the Vulcan. As was said, Polaris was all the fashion. We didn’t really have the spare folding stuff at the time, unlike our colonial cousins with the Buff. Simplistic, I know.
Just think, we could be on the TSR2 GR4 now, and it would work!
I would be the first to raise the buntin' if a formation of Battleships steamed up the Solent!
Last edited by Eagle 270; 20th Aug 2003 at 07:02.
