Fairey Firefly at Duxford
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Gosh, NigelonDraft, you must be a real bore at dinner parties and other social gatherings - "Nigel, what do you think about Weapons of Mass Destruction?" "I couldn't possibly comment, old chap, that would be pure speculation, and neither should you, we must all wait for the government to tell us what happened"
Now before I am flamed and monstered by you all, I am not trying to be flippant about this subject - this was a tragic accident in which two people died doing what they loved doing. Its just that this is a "Rumours & News" forum, the purpose of is to allow people to give their opinions and observations on a whole range of aviation matters.
The majority of posts in this thread have been thoughtful and lucid, and many people will have made up their own minds as to what happened yesterday, having seen the footage on television.
The investigators will no doubt get to the bottom of what happened, but I'm sure they won't be swayed by any comments here.
Now before I am flamed and monstered by you all, I am not trying to be flippant about this subject - this was a tragic accident in which two people died doing what they loved doing. Its just that this is a "Rumours & News" forum, the purpose of is to allow people to give their opinions and observations on a whole range of aviation matters.
The majority of posts in this thread have been thoughtful and lucid, and many people will have made up their own minds as to what happened yesterday, having seen the footage on television.
The investigators will no doubt get to the bottom of what happened, but I'm sure they won't be swayed by any comments here.
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It's a tragedy that two people died doing something that they loved. It's a shame that a beautiful aeroplane has been destroyed, it must have been a terrible thing for spectators to see, and it's sad that this will give the "Planes bad, mm'kay?" bunch something else to whine about.
But to add some perspective, this Saturday more people died on the roads than in aeroplanes.
Condolences to family and friends of the people involved.
But to add some perspective, this Saturday more people died on the roads than in aeroplanes.
Condolences to family and friends of the people involved.
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Under the Weather...
I'll leave you to decide whether or not to withdraw your remark. I just cannot stand bystanders directly accusing a very recently deceased crew of Pilot Error - and any comment, as they have been doing, of "too slow" "too low" "too little RPM" is exactly that.
Comment is one thing, as some have been doing. Public accusations at people who cannot answer back is exactly what has been done to the Chinnook pilots - cheap, easy, and with no morality!
What if it had been a friend/colleague of yours (in this case I did not know the crew, but could well have done) - would have been dancing on his grave the next day as these chaps have done? Do you have no respect for the crew and their families?
NoD
I'll leave you to decide whether or not to withdraw your remark. I just cannot stand bystanders directly accusing a very recently deceased crew of Pilot Error - and any comment, as they have been doing, of "too slow" "too low" "too little RPM" is exactly that.
Comment is one thing, as some have been doing. Public accusations at people who cannot answer back is exactly what has been done to the Chinnook pilots - cheap, easy, and with no morality!
What if it had been a friend/colleague of yours (in this case I did not know the crew, but could well have done) - would have been dancing on his grave the next day as these chaps have done? Do you have no respect for the crew and their families?
NoD
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Duxford - RNHF Firefly crash
A brief note of thanks to c/s Leicester 1 for his account of the Firefly crash. Many of Billy Murton's mates will be interested to hear how it all happened.
Just a numbered other
NoD
I'm with you on both this and the Chinook.
I lost (yet another) bl00dy good friend this weekend, and the last thing I need is to read armchair investigators' theories as to how and why I'm so devastated.
My thoughts are with Bill, Kim and the kids; and with the mechanic's family. I'll wait for the experts to tell me what happened.
Rant over.
I'm with you on both this and the Chinook.
I lost (yet another) bl00dy good friend this weekend, and the last thing I need is to read armchair investigators' theories as to how and why I'm so devastated.
My thoughts are with Bill, Kim and the kids; and with the mechanic's family. I'll wait for the experts to tell me what happened.
Rant over.
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Bill & Neil
To say that we are all gutted about yesterday's accident would go nowhere near how the team behind the Royal Navy Historic Flight or the Fly Navy Heritage Trust are feeling right now.
However, our hearts are with Bill & Neil's families. You are all so right - words cannot capture our emotions and feelings. We must make sure that Kim and the children know how much Bill meant to us all. Not only in the Junglie community, down at Plymouth or the numerous air shows where he would always take the time to talk (and teach) old and young alike about his passion and his infectious enthusiasm for our Fleet Air Arm heritage. As a Flight Engineer, Neil too had a zeal for the aircraft, with much of his work as part of the engineering team of the Historic Flight going seemingly unnoticed on the south side of Yeovilton.
I will endeavour to keep the Fly Navy Heritage Trust website up to date with information as and when we receive it.Fly Navy Heritage Trust
Our prayers are with you both. We will never forget you. Not only have we lost a very experienced RNHF Flight Commander and Engineer, but also two very good friends to us all at the Historic Flight.
Big Hugs
Allison Dufosee
Fly Navy Heritage Trust
Pictures too big for the page, distorting the text. They can be found by clicking here and here
Bill & Neil
EDIT: Alison - the link provided did not seem to work so I am providing a direct link. I trust you will not mind.
http://www.yeovilton.org.uk/Sad%20News....htm
However, our hearts are with Bill & Neil's families. You are all so right - words cannot capture our emotions and feelings. We must make sure that Kim and the children know how much Bill meant to us all. Not only in the Junglie community, down at Plymouth or the numerous air shows where he would always take the time to talk (and teach) old and young alike about his passion and his infectious enthusiasm for our Fleet Air Arm heritage. As a Flight Engineer, Neil too had a zeal for the aircraft, with much of his work as part of the engineering team of the Historic Flight going seemingly unnoticed on the south side of Yeovilton.
I will endeavour to keep the Fly Navy Heritage Trust website up to date with information as and when we receive it.Fly Navy Heritage Trust
Our prayers are with you both. We will never forget you. Not only have we lost a very experienced RNHF Flight Commander and Engineer, but also two very good friends to us all at the Historic Flight.
Big Hugs
Allison Dufosee
Fly Navy Heritage Trust
Pictures too big for the page, distorting the text. They can be found by clicking here and here
Bill & Neil
EDIT: Alison - the link provided did not seem to work so I am providing a direct link. I trust you will not mind.
http://www.yeovilton.org.uk/Sad%20News....htm
Last edited by PPRuNe Pop; 15th Jul 2003 at 02:53.
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The usual eulogy/slaggin off forum.
The only time brit pilots from different backgrounds agree is when they are doing their atpl navs, and they all agrree the caa (rules) are a bunch of cr@p.
probably because they dont have enuff brain r.a.m. to give their egos an airing whilst learning about decca navigation.
If you have so much respect for the dead, shut the fug up. its not a competetion to be the pilot with the most condolences and technical superiority.
by all means discuss but get a grip, you cant even send your own off properly.
The only time brit pilots from different backgrounds agree is when they are doing their atpl navs, and they all agrree the caa (rules) are a bunch of cr@p.
probably because they dont have enuff brain r.a.m. to give their egos an airing whilst learning about decca navigation.
If you have so much respect for the dead, shut the fug up. its not a competetion to be the pilot with the most condolences and technical superiority.
by all means discuss but get a grip, you cant even send your own off properly.
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RNHF Fairey Firefly
To all forum contributors. Please accept my profuse apologies for pre-empting the results of any investigation, as some of you quite rightly point out, I should have kept those particular comments to myself - I particularly want to pass my apologies to the families of the two crewmen and anyone closely associated with RNAS Yeovilton (hopefully contributor Allison Dufosee can do this for me if thought necessary) my comments were ill judged and poorly timed.
Aside from the aforementioned the rest of my post was purely a factual re-iteration of what I sadly witnessed. I am more than a little disappointed by the churlish nature of some of the postings on this particular forum. Mentioning no names, some of you would better to divert your energies into something constructive rather than descending into virtual anarchy. Other websites have perished over this type of scenario. My lack of judgement aside (and I am not trying to sweep that under the carpet) this forum has it's place in exchanging information, observances etc. ..... it would be nice to see it used thus rather than a forum for character assasination.
Harking back to my first post, as expected the press was quickly onto the DX incident and our 'little band' of enthusiasts should be wary that several million people will have seen what they may have been fortunate to miss on pratically every mainstream TV newschannel. Us on the other hand? If we narrow it to Aeroplane & Flypast those of us that will read the results of any investigation will be a mere handful (a few tens of thousands?) in comparison to those that have read a report of the incident. How many times has the outcome of any investigation been published in the daily press to follow up their sensational headlines??
Aside from the aforementioned the rest of my post was purely a factual re-iteration of what I sadly witnessed. I am more than a little disappointed by the churlish nature of some of the postings on this particular forum. Mentioning no names, some of you would better to divert your energies into something constructive rather than descending into virtual anarchy. Other websites have perished over this type of scenario. My lack of judgement aside (and I am not trying to sweep that under the carpet) this forum has it's place in exchanging information, observances etc. ..... it would be nice to see it used thus rather than a forum for character assasination.
Harking back to my first post, as expected the press was quickly onto the DX incident and our 'little band' of enthusiasts should be wary that several million people will have seen what they may have been fortunate to miss on pratically every mainstream TV newschannel. Us on the other hand? If we narrow it to Aeroplane & Flypast those of us that will read the results of any investigation will be a mere handful (a few tens of thousands?) in comparison to those that have read a report of the incident. How many times has the outcome of any investigation been published in the daily press to follow up their sensational headlines??
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Speculation in advance of the official inquiry may be inevitable but that doesn't mean it's acceptable on a public forum, especially when it suggests pilot error by someone who isn't here to defend himself.
It's particularly bad when it comes from people who aren't in a position to express an informed opinion. Dr Jekyll, like me, is only a PPL. The classic (so far) is by (edited 'a new PPL'):
That's the same new PPL who was celebrating passing his PPL Skills Test less than a month ago. 
As for the 'Ban Flying Displays' and 'Fly-by Only' brigade:
It's a sad but inevitable fact of life that people will occasionally be killed flying, but it was their own free choice to fly knowing (as we all do) that the risk is there.
I've lost a number of good friends in flying accidents, Stef Karwowski, John Watts, Hoof Proudfoot, Norman Lees and Mark Hanna. Stef and Mark, were particularly close friends. Mil pilots will have lost more. But I've also lost friends motor-racing, climbing and ocean-racing. Would they ban those pursuits as well?
We live in enough of a nanny state already - the idea of more laws restricting our freedoms appals me.
It's particularly bad when it comes from people who aren't in a position to express an informed opinion. Dr Jekyll, like me, is only a PPL. The classic (so far) is by (edited 'a new PPL'):
"I was fortunate to be at Duxford on Friday, practice day, and thought that some of the aircraft manoeuvers were being flown way too low.
Having seen the footage several times on Sky, LEICESTER 1 is almost certainly correct in his analysis."
Having seen the footage several times on Sky, LEICESTER 1 is almost certainly correct in his analysis."
As for the 'Ban Flying Displays' and 'Fly-by Only' brigade:
It's a sad but inevitable fact of life that people will occasionally be killed flying, but it was their own free choice to fly knowing (as we all do) that the risk is there.
I've lost a number of good friends in flying accidents, Stef Karwowski, John Watts, Hoof Proudfoot, Norman Lees and Mark Hanna. Stef and Mark, were particularly close friends. Mil pilots will have lost more. But I've also lost friends motor-racing, climbing and ocean-racing. Would they ban those pursuits as well?
We live in enough of a nanny state already - the idea of more laws restricting our freedoms appals me.
Last edited by Flying Lawyer; 5th Aug 2003 at 03:36.
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Cubby,
Thank you for your most eloquent of replies... Only a few grammatical errors this time?
As for my profile, those who know me will confirm it more or less resembles me..
I'd love to refrain from reading this forum and spend more time in the air, but my employer now insists that I remain firmly on the ground trying to prevent accidents such as those which occurred on Saturday. Maybe you now see the justification behind my posts, and the reason that the useless speculation on this forum about fellow pilots, many of whom fly air displays for the love of it, annoys me so much.
Have a nice day at the controls of your MS Flight simulator..
Z526
PS Isn't nob spelt with a K?:
Thank you for your most eloquent of replies... Only a few grammatical errors this time?
As for my profile, those who know me will confirm it more or less resembles me..
I'd love to refrain from reading this forum and spend more time in the air, but my employer now insists that I remain firmly on the ground trying to prevent accidents such as those which occurred on Saturday. Maybe you now see the justification behind my posts, and the reason that the useless speculation on this forum about fellow pilots, many of whom fly air displays for the love of it, annoys me so much.
Have a nice day at the controls of your MS Flight simulator..
Z526
PS Isn't nob spelt with a K?:
Last edited by Zlin526; 15th Jul 2003 at 04:23.
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L1 - an interesting post...!
I do not know which "camp", from your post, you put me in. However, one comment you made had me thinking...
<<as expected the press was quickly onto the DX incident and our 'little band' of enthusiasts should be wary that several million people will have seen what they may have been fortunate to miss on pratically every mainstream TV newschannel>>
In the past, this website has been quoted as a "knowledgable source" in the press - after all, it is titled the "Professional Pilots' ....". That is one reason for us all to try and be guarded in what we say, and especially speculate. Of course, in some areas where well thought out posts are made, on certain topics, this is to our advantage...
If that was your point, I apologise - I am just trying to draw it out...
NoD
I do not know which "camp", from your post, you put me in. However, one comment you made had me thinking...
<<as expected the press was quickly onto the DX incident and our 'little band' of enthusiasts should be wary that several million people will have seen what they may have been fortunate to miss on pratically every mainstream TV newschannel>>
In the past, this website has been quoted as a "knowledgable source" in the press - after all, it is titled the "Professional Pilots' ....". That is one reason for us all to try and be guarded in what we say, and especially speculate. Of course, in some areas where well thought out posts are made, on certain topics, this is to our advantage...
If that was your point, I apologise - I am just trying to draw it out...
NoD
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NoD,
The 'use' of this forum by the press et al was certainly something far from my mind - how naive am I?? But your point is taken fairly & squarely on the chin ....... there is an undoubted die hard of types that would seize on any 'tenuous' information and I like you would not wish to give their ilk the opportunity to spread their disease to the wider (ignorant?) masses. Methinks plenty enough has been said on this particularly sad topic and Flying Lawyer has made some educated comment to bring us all back to the real point of this site.
The 'use' of this forum by the press et al was certainly something far from my mind - how naive am I?? But your point is taken fairly & squarely on the chin ....... there is an undoubted die hard of types that would seize on any 'tenuous' information and I like you would not wish to give their ilk the opportunity to spread their disease to the wider (ignorant?) masses. Methinks plenty enough has been said on this particularly sad topic and Flying Lawyer has made some educated comment to bring us all back to the real point of this site.
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This horrible thing happened at a public display, at this country's main centre of historic aviation.
Of course people will speculate. Millions have seen the video reports on TV.
What is so precious about this particular bulletin board that makes speculation improper here, while the rest of the populace has seen the film and heard the commentary?
Surely the whole point of PPRune is that the posts are either informed, or if they are not, then they are swiftly corrected.
Let's not be too precious here. This tragedy should be mourned and will be mourned. There will be an enquiry in due course.
Why leave analysis to the newspapers?
Of course people will speculate. Millions have seen the video reports on TV.
What is so precious about this particular bulletin board that makes speculation improper here, while the rest of the populace has seen the film and heard the commentary?
Surely the whole point of PPRune is that the posts are either informed, or if they are not, then they are swiftly corrected.
Let's not be too precious here. This tragedy should be mourned and will be mourned. There will be an enquiry in due course.
Why leave analysis to the newspapers?
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Remember the dead as is only proper, but also remember there are thousands, nay tens of thousands of us who would do anything to have the chance to fly such an aeroplane and would happily risk all to do it, as they did.
But there are no Fireflies left.
Thats the real tragedy.
But there are no Fireflies left.
Thats the real tragedy.
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Duxford
Well put Raptor.
What on earth is disrespectful in discussing a very public accident on an aviation forum. Display pilots are human and do make mistakes, sadly the room for error can be limited. Anybody with even limited flying experience can see what happens when you get too slow, too low and run out of room. Sure control restrictions do happen but put some aspect of reality into the likelyhood.
What on earth is disrespectful in discussing a very public accident on an aviation forum. Display pilots are human and do make mistakes, sadly the room for error can be limited. Anybody with even limited flying experience can see what happens when you get too slow, too low and run out of room. Sure control restrictions do happen but put some aspect of reality into the likelyhood.
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Skeptic,
It is sad that this particular airframe that has been embraced by the warbird loving public in the UK has perished ......... however, there are other Fireflies left - 2 others at Yeovilton in the museum, one in the U.S in flying trim (Oshkosh Grand Champion if I am not mistaken), possibly one each in 'flyable' trim in Canada & Australia and quite a few others worldwide in various locations mainly in 'static' condition. The Swedes recently have placed two Mk.1's up for sale, both ex.-RN a/c. There is hope for the future, but quite whether the UK will ever be fortunate enough to benefit from the hard work and perseverance shown by RNHF over the past decades remains to be seen.
It is sad that this particular airframe that has been embraced by the warbird loving public in the UK has perished ......... however, there are other Fireflies left - 2 others at Yeovilton in the museum, one in the U.S in flying trim (Oshkosh Grand Champion if I am not mistaken), possibly one each in 'flyable' trim in Canada & Australia and quite a few others worldwide in various locations mainly in 'static' condition. The Swedes recently have placed two Mk.1's up for sale, both ex.-RN a/c. There is hope for the future, but quite whether the UK will ever be fortunate enough to benefit from the hard work and perseverance shown by RNHF over the past decades remains to be seen.
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RIP to the two air crew lost on Saturday.
Yes, there was a beautifully-restored Firefly at Oshkosh last year.
I think we need to think hard about the wisdom of performing low level aerobatics in this type of airplane. It is far from being a nimble aircraft. Plus the aeros simply don't add a whole lot to the display experience. When compared to non-aerobatic displays (such as the Warbirds displays at OSH) there is very little "value added" from doing low level aeros, but a whole lot of "risk added ". I love seeing and hearing warbird aircraft doing low fast passes with the throttle wide open, but the aerobatics - I can take it or leave it.
Yes, there was a beautifully-restored Firefly at Oshkosh last year.
I think we need to think hard about the wisdom of performing low level aerobatics in this type of airplane. It is far from being a nimble aircraft. Plus the aeros simply don't add a whole lot to the display experience. When compared to non-aerobatic displays (such as the Warbirds displays at OSH) there is very little "value added" from doing low level aeros, but a whole lot of "risk added ". I love seeing and hearing warbird aircraft doing low fast passes with the throttle wide open, but the aerobatics - I can take it or leave it.
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What a great shame, knew the pilot well and was only talking to him recently at an RN function about the attendant problems of flying the Swordfish as well as the Firefly.
Will be much missed and codolences to their families and the RN Heritage community.
Will be much missed and codolences to their families and the RN Heritage community.
Another year, another airshow, another loss of an aircraft and more importantly the loss of two people. The list of aircraft lost over the last ten years is horrendous and yet the spectators still come, the aircraft are still restored and there is no shortage of
pilots who wish to fly them.
I would however make a couple of general observations:
1. There is often exhibited a somewhat 'macho' attitude towards these incidents which usually seems to come from enthusiasts rather than air display professionals - ' the right to die doing something they loved' - 'how many died on the roads' - etc. This
is not the attitude shown by the vast majority of display pilots, some sadly gone, whom I have had the pleasure of meeting over the years.
2. I do wonder whether the 'envelope'is being pushed too far too
often. Many of the aircraft were never designed to operate in the
manner in which they are displayed - margins of error which may
have been available in combat at altitude are not the same when
flying in display mode. Comparisons which are sometimes made
to historic racing cars are fatuous as they are still performing in their natural element - ie on the racetrack. Do we expect the BBMF Lanacaster to do wingovers and rolls - it was done fifty years ago in extremis but to day - I think not; so why should vintage fighter aircraft be expected to perform low level aerobatics ? Perhaps the pressure to outperform is too great ?
No answers just sadness and yet another loss of aircrew - the loss of the aircraft is an irrelevance in comparison.
pilots who wish to fly them.
I would however make a couple of general observations:
1. There is often exhibited a somewhat 'macho' attitude towards these incidents which usually seems to come from enthusiasts rather than air display professionals - ' the right to die doing something they loved' - 'how many died on the roads' - etc. This
is not the attitude shown by the vast majority of display pilots, some sadly gone, whom I have had the pleasure of meeting over the years.
2. I do wonder whether the 'envelope'is being pushed too far too
often. Many of the aircraft were never designed to operate in the
manner in which they are displayed - margins of error which may
have been available in combat at altitude are not the same when
flying in display mode. Comparisons which are sometimes made
to historic racing cars are fatuous as they are still performing in their natural element - ie on the racetrack. Do we expect the BBMF Lanacaster to do wingovers and rolls - it was done fifty years ago in extremis but to day - I think not; so why should vintage fighter aircraft be expected to perform low level aerobatics ? Perhaps the pressure to outperform is too great ?
No answers just sadness and yet another loss of aircrew - the loss of the aircraft is an irrelevance in comparison.