Another Conscientious Objector!
Joined: May 1999
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From: Quite near 'An aerodrome somewhere in England'
This was entirely predictable.
His correct course of action would have been to respond to call-out as required, then make clear his conscientious objection. His case would then certainly have been dealt as per QRs.
But by acting in the way in which he allegedly did, he left himself open to the charge of being AWOL.
I wonder whether anyone made that clear to him?
His correct course of action would have been to respond to call-out as required, then make clear his conscientious objection. His case would then certainly have been dealt as per QRs.
But by acting in the way in which he allegedly did, he left himself open to the charge of being AWOL.
I wonder whether anyone made that clear to him?
Joined: Apr 2002
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From: Usually Somewhere Else
OOOOOOHHHHHHH. Seven days loss of privileges. That will without doubt, deter anyone else from trying the same thing!!
What a joke. I imagine he has saved himself at least seven days of "privileges" by not having spent a good deal of his time over the past couple of years, in the f£$%^&g desert!?!? Unlike those who have spent several months away from family and friends since it all kicked off. Neuter him I say!
What a joke. I imagine he has saved himself at least seven days of "privileges" by not having spent a good deal of his time over the past couple of years, in the f£$%^&g desert!?!? Unlike those who have spent several months away from family and friends since it all kicked off. Neuter him I say!
Thread Starter
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 1,089
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From: East Sussex
Do we have a Glasshouse at Colchester any more? I thought that's where all the naughty AWOL boys and girls were sent to for a short sharp shock before being discharged from the service.
But no, as he's a mussie such action would have a detrimental effect on race relations, blah blah...........!
But no, as he's a mussie such action would have a detrimental effect on race relations, blah blah...........!
Joined: Mar 2000
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From: Long ago and far away ......
Training Risky,
As much as don't like what this chap is doing, I think you need to be careful with the tone of your post immediately above.
As much as don't like what this chap is doing, I think you need to be careful with the tone of your post immediately above.
Last edited by MrBernoulli; 13th October 2004 at 08:21.
Inter Arma Enim Silentius Lex Legis
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 733
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From: England
When this particular war is declared illegal and Blair and his people face charges, I reckon this young man will win his future appeal and be handsomely compensated!!
Training Risky..
Let us not forget that this gentleman, like all the unfortunates called up, is a civilian albeit on temporary military service. Also Blair has stated that any one refusing military call out will NOT be jailed.
I for one will refuse any such call out in the future unless the homeland faces a direct threat from Armed Forces. I did my 28 years of blood sweat and tears and if I am forced to turn up I could create serious mayhem on the frontline!!
Beagle
No it was not made clear to him and this came out at appeal. From now on the MOD must make clear the grounds upon which you can object to military call up and the procedures involved.
Training Risky..
Let us not forget that this gentleman, like all the unfortunates called up, is a civilian albeit on temporary military service. Also Blair has stated that any one refusing military call out will NOT be jailed.
I for one will refuse any such call out in the future unless the homeland faces a direct threat from Armed Forces. I did my 28 years of blood sweat and tears and if I am forced to turn up I could create serious mayhem on the frontline!!
Beagle
No it was not made clear to him and this came out at appeal. From now on the MOD must make clear the grounds upon which you can object to military call up and the procedures involved.
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 60
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From: England
I dont think TR has to watch what he says. Quite justified IMHO. Is this chap using his field of prayer as an excuse to not get his hands dirty? If thats the case, one would think he was naive in making even a commitment to the cadet forces, let alone Queens colour service.
Like it or lump it, if you freely choose to sign the dotted for Queen (Govn of the day), in what ever capacity, you surely must expect to play a large game of chess on behalf of which ever neanderthals who are calling the shots at the time. God forbid, if the green party ever get into office, would it be excusable to refuse to 'soldier' if they demanded we took out all Beagle Smoking establishments? (No pun intended, Beags!!)
Conscientious objection. Poor excuse for lack of moral fibre?
Conscientious objection. Prove it? Or prove otherwise....very sticky wicket.
Like it or lump it, if you freely choose to sign the dotted for Queen (Govn of the day), in what ever capacity, you surely must expect to play a large game of chess on behalf of which ever neanderthals who are calling the shots at the time. God forbid, if the green party ever get into office, would it be excusable to refuse to 'soldier' if they demanded we took out all Beagle Smoking establishments? (No pun intended, Beags!!)
Conscientious objection. Poor excuse for lack of moral fibre?
Conscientious objection. Prove it? Or prove otherwise....very sticky wicket.
Joined: May 1999
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From: Quite near 'An aerodrome somewhere in England'
There is an error of understanding here:
1. Failure to respond to call-out = offence
2. Being AWOL = offence
3. Declaring conscientious objection = NOT an offence
The case appears to have been brought as a result of 2. What should have happened is that it should have been made clear to him that had he returned from leave and subsequently stated his conscientious objection, his case would have been delat with under existing procedures. That doesn't seem to have happened..
And before people go get all high and mighty again, you may be interested to know that at least one officer (a pilot) resigned his commission over Bliar's adventurism in Iraq.
1. Failure to respond to call-out = offence
2. Being AWOL = offence
3. Declaring conscientious objection = NOT an offence
The case appears to have been brought as a result of 2. What should have happened is that it should have been made clear to him that had he returned from leave and subsequently stated his conscientious objection, his case would have been delat with under existing procedures. That doesn't seem to have happened..
And before people go get all high and mighty again, you may be interested to know that at least one officer (a pilot) resigned his commission over Bliar's adventurism in Iraq.
Joined: May 2004
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From: Lincs
Having taken the Queen's shilling as a Reservist, this individual should have been prepared to be called up and sent wherever ordered; perhaps he should therefore pay back every penny of his military salary/Reservist bounty?
Just a thought.
SBG
Just a thought.
SBG
Joined: May 1999
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From: Quite near 'An aerodrome somewhere in England'
A world of difference between someone on RAFResA and someone serving in the RAuxAF....
It was widely reported that the call-out of those serving on RAFResA was the first large-scale call-out since Suez. So to say that all PVR'd personnel with a call-out liability should 'Be prepared to be called up and sent wherever ordered' is stretching credulity somewhat.
Cut backs in regular manning and over-reliance on RAFResA and RAFResO are all part of the plethora of defence cut backs inflicted on the UK over the years. Bliar's adventurism is not achievable without it, it would seem....
Liability for call-out and liability for recall are 2 very different matters; there is no such thing as 'call up' unless you mean general mobilisation?
It was widely reported that the call-out of those serving on RAFResA was the first large-scale call-out since Suez. So to say that all PVR'd personnel with a call-out liability should 'Be prepared to be called up and sent wherever ordered' is stretching credulity somewhat.
Cut backs in regular manning and over-reliance on RAFResA and RAFResO are all part of the plethora of defence cut backs inflicted on the UK over the years. Bliar's adventurism is not achievable without it, it would seem....
Liability for call-out and liability for recall are 2 very different matters; there is no such thing as 'call up' unless you mean general mobilisation?
Joined: May 2004
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From: Lincs
Fair enough - I take your point on the difference between RAuxAF service and someone who has PVR'd with a continuing reserve liability. However, when you consider the dates of his regular service (1999-2001) and the situation we have been in since 1990, there is no way he could have ever been under the misapprehension that the RAF would not see action in Muslim countries during his service or PVR liability. Did he register his conscientious objection when he was a serving member of the RAF? Or was this merely a flag of convenience to prevent his call-up for duties in Iraq?
I suggest the latter is the more likely of the two.
SBG
I suggest the latter is the more likely of the two.
SBG
Joined: May 1999
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From: Quite near 'An aerodrome somewhere in England'
He could not 'prevent' his call-out under the RFA due to conscientious objection as you infer. But what he could have done quite legitimately was to have registered his objection after having duly reported.
My gut feeling is that Bliar will use the RFA more and more to solve the manning needs inherent in his adventurism given half a chance...
My gut feeling is that Bliar will use the RFA more and more to solve the manning needs inherent in his adventurism given half a chance...
Joined: May 1999
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From: Quite near 'An aerodrome somewhere in England'
The offence he committed was going AWOL. Conscientious objection is not an offence.
He should have been advised to "Get your ar$e back here sharpish young man, before you can be done for going AWOL. Then we can consider your conscientious objection. But if you don't come back first, you will have committed an offence and could get done for it!"
Leadership, it was once called.
He should have been advised to "Get your ar$e back here sharpish young man, before you can be done for going AWOL. Then we can consider your conscientious objection. But if you don't come back first, you will have committed an offence and could get done for it!"
Leadership, it was once called.
Joined: Feb 2002
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From: Devon
Not enough people
If the Services were fully manned, then why would they be keen to get lots of FTRS people? Also isn't the increased use of Reservists parly due to the changing nature of our operations....
I am a Reservist myself. After my failed attempts to get into the full time RN, I tried using the RNR to build a case for re-entry. However, I myself realised that this would not be a good idea. So back to the idea of being a Reservist.
I may, at some time in the future, get mobillised. I may not. Currently I'm in the process of trying to change branch to a more hands on, closer to the proper RN, and a sea going one. My chance of being mobillsed will be significantly higher. But at least I won't get sent to a tent or portacabin in the desert!!
If I did happen, it would be absurd for me to refuse, giving my background. And my family and friends when treat me with the disdain I would deserve.
Most of the people I know who have been called up have said that it was a postive, life enhancing experience, particularly in terms of self confidence etc. Perhaps it would be just the thing I need?
Edited because I forgot what I was going to say........doh
Unlike the full time Services, you can resign from the Reserves with very little notice - a month I think. Since the events in the Gulf had been brewing for years, and the conflict was foreseen by most people in 2002, he had ample opportunity to resign.
I am a Reservist myself. After my failed attempts to get into the full time RN, I tried using the RNR to build a case for re-entry. However, I myself realised that this would not be a good idea. So back to the idea of being a Reservist.
I may, at some time in the future, get mobillised. I may not. Currently I'm in the process of trying to change branch to a more hands on, closer to the proper RN, and a sea going one. My chance of being mobillsed will be significantly higher. But at least I won't get sent to a tent or portacabin in the desert!!
If I did happen, it would be absurd for me to refuse, giving my background. And my family and friends when treat me with the disdain I would deserve.
Most of the people I know who have been called up have said that it was a postive, life enhancing experience, particularly in terms of self confidence etc. Perhaps it would be just the thing I need?
Edited because I forgot what I was going to say........doh
Unlike the full time Services, you can resign from the Reserves with very little notice - a month I think. Since the events in the Gulf had been brewing for years, and the conflict was foreseen by most people in 2002, he had ample opportunity to resign.
Last edited by WE Branch Fanatic; 10th October 2004 at 20:10.
Joined: May 2004
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From: Up North
He will win his appeal eventually, either in the Lords or in Strasbourg.
This will have a massive impact on all of us. As BEagle says, we will be used in future as cheap labour under RAF 98 as a result of the cutbacks.
This will have a massive impact on all of us. As BEagle says, we will be used in future as cheap labour under RAF 98 as a result of the cutbacks.
