BBC hype or Jaguar problem at Coltishall?
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BBC hype or Jaguar problem at Coltishall?
Join Date: Oct 2001
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Probably hype, especially given the amount of money just spent on upgrades, and lets face it, are we really going to see the Eurofighter when they say we will.....mmm, don't think so!!
Anyway, so what if they had to shutdown an engine, surely 1 donk on its own on one of these beasties is more than ample oomph!
Anyway, so what if they had to shutdown an engine, surely 1 donk on its own on one of these beasties is more than ample oomph!
I would wager that the quarter grounded are the same quarter which have recently been given the mk 106 Adour engine. This gives an extra 6 % dry thrust each side.
A Jag mate told me a few weeks ago that the extra weight of the exhaust negates the extra thrust produced. (Made of/with titanium I think he said.)
Its true that it is underpowered. They struggle to get airborne from Incirlik with a full load. (At Colt too I believe, on a hot day)
A Jag mate told me a few weeks ago that the extra weight of the exhaust negates the extra thrust produced. (Made of/with titanium I think he said.)
Its true that it is underpowered. They struggle to get airborne from Incirlik with a full load. (At Colt too I believe, on a hot day)
Interesting that the 106 engine upgrade was the only bit of the Jag upgrade so far to be given to BAE as Design Authority, rather than being managed by JUPO and the IPT.......... It also seems to have been the most expensive and the least impressive.
'Smart Procurement'?
'Smart Procurement'?
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BBC tell the truth-almost
Just about correct. Except it was a T4.
All 106 engined Jags grounded tfn- no estimate on how long.
RR apparently scratching their heads, rumours of 106 engine being scrapped.
As re-engined aircraft cannot take the 104 back-could mean bye bye Jag earlier than expected.
All 106 engined Jags grounded tfn- no estimate on how long.
RR apparently scratching their heads, rumours of 106 engine being scrapped.
As re-engined aircraft cannot take the 104 back-could mean bye bye Jag earlier than expected.
"As re-engined aircraft cannot take the 104 back-could mean bye bye Jag earlier than expected."
Why not?
There are plenty of 2,000 hour Jag airframes at Cosford, two of which have already been upgraded to GR3A standards. The conversion from GR1>GR3A costs little more than for a GR1A>GR3A, although the Cosford aircraft do also require a Major.
It would thus be a very easy matter to generate 20-24 virtually new Jaguar GR3As, perhaps allowing the type to remain in service a little longer, and perhaps taking the strain off the Tornado GR4.
Why not?
There are plenty of 2,000 hour Jag airframes at Cosford, two of which have already been upgraded to GR3A standards. The conversion from GR1>GR3A costs little more than for a GR1A>GR3A, although the Cosford aircraft do also require a Major.
It would thus be a very easy matter to generate 20-24 virtually new Jaguar GR3As, perhaps allowing the type to remain in service a little longer, and perhaps taking the strain off the Tornado GR4.
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Suppose they could convert some more- suspect cash would be a big issue though. Incidently, the BBC article is a slightly optimistic, it's more like half the fleet of current GR3A/T4 grounded if you also count the ones sitting at St Athan undergoing the upgrade. By my reckoning about 27 out of the 53 long term Jag fleet are affected. Take out the other 104 jets on major etc...and it does'nt leave much left for 4 Sqns.
Guess we'll wait for RR to sort it out.
Guess we'll wait for RR to sort it out.
Cash? c. £540 K per jet, plus the Major.
I suspect that the real objection would be that BAE would whine like hell to see a second slough of conversions done by the old DERA/DARO/RAF route and would come up with the same smokescreen about configuration control, mod integrity, etc. because it would be another stark example of what Smart Procurement should still be about, and would be an unwelcome point of comparison for the ongoing Harrier upgrade. Add in the perception among some senior officers that those involved last time committed career suicide (despite the obvious success of the upgrade) and factor in the risk aversion of some of those who now run the IPT, and converting another batch looks unlikely.
But it would still represent a very cheap way of generating an asset which could give another 100,000 FH very cheaply. How many Harrier GR.Mk 9s would £10.8 m (20 more Jags) buy? Two? Three? And without HMP3 (the new rear fuselage) how many hours would they give?
I suspect that the real objection would be that BAE would whine like hell to see a second slough of conversions done by the old DERA/DARO/RAF route and would come up with the same smokescreen about configuration control, mod integrity, etc. because it would be another stark example of what Smart Procurement should still be about, and would be an unwelcome point of comparison for the ongoing Harrier upgrade. Add in the perception among some senior officers that those involved last time committed career suicide (despite the obvious success of the upgrade) and factor in the risk aversion of some of those who now run the IPT, and converting another batch looks unlikely.
But it would still represent a very cheap way of generating an asset which could give another 100,000 FH very cheaply. How many Harrier GR.Mk 9s would £10.8 m (20 more Jags) buy? Two? Three? And without HMP3 (the new rear fuselage) how many hours would they give?
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106 Jags flying again
106 engined Jags are now recleared to fly, albeit with operating restrictions. The cause and solution of the disintegrating reheat module is still under investigation by RR!!
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Any further news here? I thought that grounding them forever after a nozzle problem would have been overkill (after all, the F3 continued to fly when it's engines were self destructing due to problems in the hot bits).
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106 problem still under investigation, likely to continue for a long while. 106 engined jets are now flying after inspection and are subject to rigorous inspections of the jet pipe area post flight. One aircraft has just failed an inspection after one flight since being recleared to fly- most perplexing.
The crux of the problem is that the current 104 engine is coming to the end of its useful life and apparently needs to be replaced, hence 106 re-engining. If 106 engine is declared a dead duck there are currently no 104's to replace those 104's that reach the end of their lives without spending a lot of money.
Problems like this are an ideal chance for the bean counters to chop a few aircraft- rumours abound within Colt that one Jag Sqn will go in the next defence cuts. With no Operational commitments now that gw2 is over the Jag force has got to be No1 on the list should the RAF have to tighten its belt again.
The crux of the problem is that the current 104 engine is coming to the end of its useful life and apparently needs to be replaced, hence 106 re-engining. If 106 engine is declared a dead duck there are currently no 104's to replace those 104's that reach the end of their lives without spending a lot of money.
Problems like this are an ideal chance for the bean counters to chop a few aircraft- rumours abound within Colt that one Jag Sqn will go in the next defence cuts. With no Operational commitments now that gw2 is over the Jag force has got to be No1 on the list should the RAF have to tighten its belt again.
More powerful 'export' 811s would have been easy to produce for the upgraded Jags (and could be purchased from India), and there is no great shortage of 104s, except that 106s are produced by cannibalising them! The 106 re-engining was not undertaken because the Jags NEEDED a replacement engine, it was spend to save, pure and simple, promising a significant reduction in support costs. When initially proposed, the engine was being promised with a significant increase in thrust dry or reheated, but this was left as an aspiration (in the hope that it would be exceeded) instead of being tightly written into the contract.
Shouldn't we also be looking at things from an operational perspective? Yes GW2 is over, but I wouldn't say that that means that the Jaguar is a 'rebel' (sorry) without a cause! The Jag remains, despite it's short legs and engine problems, one of our most capable and flexible platforms. Why? One because the GR3 upgrade was managed by us so that it delivered a capable and flexible platform and two because everyone on the Jag has worked so hard to ensure that it remains a viable platform, with viable tactics. We all knew that the 106 was bunk, so lets just do what Jacko has been wanting to do for as long as I've been on these pages and pull all the airframes from Cosford and possibly Shawbury(?) and upgrade them at minimal cost!
Let me re-emphasise that I'm not suggesting that the jag is anything other than a second-best solution. It lacks the night capabilities, legs and payload of the GR7, the all weather capability, legs and payload of the GR4 and is a 20th Century platform. It would be infinitely preferable to replace Coltishall's three squadrons with three squadrons of Harriers, Tornados, Gripens, or Eurofighters, except that rapid-deployability, off main base supportability, support, manpower and operating costs all give convincing reasons why Jag should be retained.
Given the fact that there are insufficient GR4 'frames to see the type through to its planned OSD (which may well slip to the right, since FOAS is still nothing but paper), and given that upgrading further Tornados or Harriers is prohibitively expensive (£7 m per pop for the GR4, a significant amount for GR9 plus HMP3 - one is no good without the other), the option of producing further Jag conversions (at about £540,000 each) to maintain OS FJ numbers seems only sensible. Reduce the GR4 force to the size needed to reach its OSD, and run on 2 or 3 squadrons of Jags and perhaps even 2 squadrons of ALARM/TIALD/Recce F3s.
It wouldn't be glamorous, it wouldn't be exciting, and whoever is CAS during that period will have a capable but rather old fashioned looking air force.
Given the fact that there are insufficient GR4 'frames to see the type through to its planned OSD (which may well slip to the right, since FOAS is still nothing but paper), and given that upgrading further Tornados or Harriers is prohibitively expensive (£7 m per pop for the GR4, a significant amount for GR9 plus HMP3 - one is no good without the other), the option of producing further Jag conversions (at about £540,000 each) to maintain OS FJ numbers seems only sensible. Reduce the GR4 force to the size needed to reach its OSD, and run on 2 or 3 squadrons of Jags and perhaps even 2 squadrons of ALARM/TIALD/Recce F3s.
It wouldn't be glamorous, it wouldn't be exciting, and whoever is CAS during that period will have a capable but rather old fashioned looking air force.
TIALD w HMSS
EO Vinten w HMSS
IDM
PRISM IDM
P*******
CRV7
30-mm (unlike Harrier)
PII
PIII
BL and RBL755
CBU 87
and within easy sight of adding RAIDS, ASRAAM, etc.
Unless you need to operate hot and high, or carry a big payload, Jag IS flexible
EO Vinten w HMSS
IDM
PRISM IDM
P*******
CRV7
30-mm (unlike Harrier)
PII
PIII
BL and RBL755
CBU 87
and within easy sight of adding RAIDS, ASRAAM, etc.
Unless you need to operate hot and high, or carry a big payload, Jag IS flexible
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Jackonicko - that is just for starters too!! Which other platforms have moving map overlays including e-TAPs, EMERG cards and the nearest DIV airfields?? That databus is a very nice tool indeed!! :-)