BBC hype or Jaguar problem at Coltishall?
I wasn't going to get into all that highly subjective stuff about the way the Man Machine Interface actually works, and how the software moding is intuitive, 'cos I'm not a Jag pilot, and have logged only a few minutes stick time (and a couple of hours sitting watching) in one since they changed from NAVWASS to FIN.1064, and have never flown in an upgraded jet!
But according to those who ought to know, the way in which TIALD is integrated, and works, and the way in which all the other Gucci add ons work do make it a great little platform to operate.
ETAPS and EFRCs in a 1970s jet? Does the GR4 have that yet? Hat's off to Birchy and his merry gang, I say!
But according to those who ought to know, the way in which TIALD is integrated, and works, and the way in which all the other Gucci add ons work do make it a great little platform to operate.
ETAPS and EFRCs in a 1970s jet? Does the GR4 have that yet? Hat's off to Birchy and his merry gang, I say!
Jackonickers,
So flexible that it's involvement in Op TELIC was..........................diddly squat!
I know Turkey was a factor here, but GW1 was the saving grace to a vanishing asset. I fear it being the only major asset not deployed on GW2 may be as terminal for the Jag as the opposite was positive in GW1.
"Unless you need to operate hot or high or carry a big payload" is a pretty damming restriction these days, particulaly in a force that already has an embarassingly high percentage of it's fast jet fleet lacking either Radar (Jag, Har) or flexibility (F3).
Phasing out the Jag early has to be a very attractive proposition. It releases aircrew for a stretched front line (same goes for the ginger beers), saves oodles by closing Colt early and allows funds to go where they are better and more flexibly employed, i.e;Typhoon, GR9 and GR4.
Only down side is the impact on Typhoon numbers if almost half the Squadrons destined to recieve it are axed, but as tranche 3 is looking threatened already, heh, don't we have a plan?
So flexible that it's involvement in Op TELIC was..........................diddly squat!
I know Turkey was a factor here, but GW1 was the saving grace to a vanishing asset. I fear it being the only major asset not deployed on GW2 may be as terminal for the Jag as the opposite was positive in GW1.
"Unless you need to operate hot or high or carry a big payload" is a pretty damming restriction these days, particulaly in a force that already has an embarassingly high percentage of it's fast jet fleet lacking either Radar (Jag, Har) or flexibility (F3).
Phasing out the Jag early has to be a very attractive proposition. It releases aircrew for a stretched front line (same goes for the ginger beers), saves oodles by closing Colt early and allows funds to go where they are better and more flexibly employed, i.e;Typhoon, GR9 and GR4.
Only down side is the impact on Typhoon numbers if almost half the Squadrons destined to recieve it are axed, but as tranche 3 is looking threatened already, heh, don't we have a plan?
Pr00ne:
You took the words right out of my mouth! "Hot and high" indeed...
Coming from the contra-rotating banana force, it amuses me to see almost all the JHC tasking in Afghanistan and GW2, done by 3 sqns in Hants!
As our focus of ops is looking towards places that are almost exclusively hot n' high, (as opposed to the north German plain), it doesn't matter what the Jag COULD carry, if it can't get airborne.
You took the words right out of my mouth! "Hot and high" indeed...
Coming from the contra-rotating banana force, it amuses me to see almost all the JHC tasking in Afghanistan and GW2, done by 3 sqns in Hants!
As our focus of ops is looking towards places that are almost exclusively hot n' high, (as opposed to the north German plain), it doesn't matter what the Jag COULD carry, if it can't get airborne.
Jag may not have been involved in GW II but it was the first op/war in a long time in which it's not taken part. Doesn't GW I, Kosovo, Northern Watch, Desert Whatsit count? I think the Jag force have proved their point over and over again, don't you?
The Jag Force came very close to going on Telic, and would have been very useful (despite the hot/high limitations) had they done so. I'm told that the reason they didn't was largely political - not least because the Jag's participation would have made it more difficult to axe in the post Telic options round......
Re two jets for one PWII, the Jag can self designate while carrying one PW3, or two PWIIs, while if it operates purely as a spiker, other platforms accuracy has historically been enhanced - and it's DHs not the raw number of weapons dropped that count, I thought.........
In any event, in the current climate, shouldn't we be talking about more modern, lighter, smaller, lower collateral damage weapons (and why the RAF hasn't got any?). 500-lb PWIIs would be a start.....
As for the savings by cutting Jag, and the bonus offered by the 'redeployment of manpower' I'd guess that it would just be another nail in the retention coffin to post the Jag chaps onto the GR4, though some might enjoy the GR7/9 (if they can ever afford the new back ends...). But the Jag Force generates considerable flying hours from a small fleet, and at significantly lower overall cost than any other frontline FJ.
Re two jets for one PWII, the Jag can self designate while carrying one PW3, or two PWIIs, while if it operates purely as a spiker, other platforms accuracy has historically been enhanced - and it's DHs not the raw number of weapons dropped that count, I thought.........
In any event, in the current climate, shouldn't we be talking about more modern, lighter, smaller, lower collateral damage weapons (and why the RAF hasn't got any?). 500-lb PWIIs would be a start.....
As for the savings by cutting Jag, and the bonus offered by the 'redeployment of manpower' I'd guess that it would just be another nail in the retention coffin to post the Jag chaps onto the GR4, though some might enjoy the GR7/9 (if they can ever afford the new back ends...). But the Jag Force generates considerable flying hours from a small fleet, and at significantly lower overall cost than any other frontline FJ.
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: UK
Posts: 106
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
No expert me, but I thought it was tanks under the wings to get past the perimeter track, and either TIALD or a PW on the centreline.
500lb or even 250lb (E)PWs on a triple ejector rack are the kind of weapons we need to be procuring. You're right on that one.
500lb or even 250lb (E)PWs on a triple ejector rack are the kind of weapons we need to be procuring. You're right on that one.
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: UK
Posts: 5
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Jag actually has clearance to operate at the same temperature as GR4 - it is the Plastic Pig which can't get airborne when the going gets hot. Something about the glue melting, apparently.
As for 2 tanks, yeah, if there's no AAR available. They'll happily stay at home when it isn't available, but who won't (tugs forelock respectfully to RAF Hants at this point)
As for spending cash 'better' and more flexibly, I'd love to know how you plan to integrate an air-to-surface datalink with your HMSS for less than £2m on any other platform, FW or RW....
As for 2 tanks, yeah, if there's no AAR available. They'll happily stay at home when it isn't available, but who won't (tugs forelock respectfully to RAF Hants at this point)
As for spending cash 'better' and more flexibly, I'd love to know how you plan to integrate an air-to-surface datalink with your HMSS for less than £2m on any other platform, FW or RW....
Jag can operate in a self designation fit with TIALD underwing with a centreline tank and a single PW, and there were serious proposals to operate with TIALD/ALQ on the centreline, inboard tanks and outboard small offensive weapons, with overwing BOL and ASRAAM.
Years ago I recall reading in 1989-90 that there was a half serious proposal to rewing the Jags with a larger wing giving more lift, increased internal fuel and more stores pylons.
They binned it as they thought (what would later become) Typhoon would be entering IOC in 1998 so there was no need to spend the cash updating something that would be out of service by 2000!
Does anyone have any info on the propsed upgrade? I only saw 1 reference to it in (I think) Air International.
They binned it as they thought (what would later become) Typhoon would be entering IOC in 1998 so there was no need to spend the cash updating something that would be out of service by 2000!
Does anyone have any info on the propsed upgrade? I only saw 1 reference to it in (I think) Air International.
I was at meeting in '93 in which another Jag upgrade was binned because the jet had less than 5 yrs to run. It was especially irritating that the upgrade would have saved money, improved reliability and significantly increased its defensice aids capaibility. None of the people who made that decision are in in the Air Farce.
So, to summarise, I think we're agreed that the Jag is flexible and capable. Yes it struggles on legs (that's why we have AAR) and struggles in high temps (that's one of the reasons the arabs build long runways I'd guess-yes as well as all the ops and ADR stuff etc). But not only could we expand (yes EXPAND) the FJ fleet relatively inexpensively by the reactivation of stored Jag airframes, but you could update the Jag even further really easily (as long as you don't give the work to THAT company) and cheaply, by getting the JUPO to do it. He's certainly full of ideas of further improvements. Maybe we can get him the funding to put ASRAAM on, rather than wasting it on some nonsense engine warning function (if I remember rightly) that wasn't required, as happened 3 years ago!
Join Date: May 2003
Location: East Anglia
Posts: 68
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
While what everybody says makes complete sense, I fear we are delving into the realms of fantasy with any plans to break open another box of Jaguars. The RAF does'nt have enough money to equip, accomodate and pay its people properly let alone bring back to life aircraft that have spent the last 20yrs in storage at Shawbury and being taken apart twice a week by spotty 18yr old techies.
The fact is that the Jag Wing has barely enough aircraft to equip 3 Sqns and an OCU at present. By removing one Sqn and spreading the aircraft/ personnel between the others would not involve a lost of effectiveness, but would save a fair bit of money.
Guess we'll find out in September....over to the bean counters.
The fact is that the Jag Wing has barely enough aircraft to equip 3 Sqns and an OCU at present. By removing one Sqn and spreading the aircraft/ personnel between the others would not involve a lost of effectiveness, but would save a fair bit of money.
Guess we'll find out in September....over to the bean counters.
